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Terry Fontenot - 2nd day trade - let's revisit


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Now that we have settled in and the dust has cleared - thought it would be a good time to go back and re-visit Terry Fontenot's philosophy in general and - more specifically - his draft day trade w/ Denver.

Falcons Traded:  #2-035 and #6-219

Denver Traded:   #2-040 and #4-114

I loved this trade for Falcons

 

Denver Side:  Denver likes the trade because they got a potentially great Running Back there in Javonte Williams.   I like the trade for Denver as Williams could end up being the best RB in this draft - I probably have him RB#2 behind only Najee.   Of course Javonte ended up going RB#3 behind the home-run hitter Travis Etienne as well.

Falcons Side:    I believe it was obvious that Richie Grant was "their guy".  Who knows if they liked Travis Moerhig or not but we know the Falcons preferred Grant as he Moerhig was available and we passed over - Moerhig had some injury concerns as well.   I actually believe Grant a more well-rounded safety who can play multiple positions and better tackler and tougher as well.   What I love about FONTENOT here was he was probably mostly locked in on Grant but he felt he could move down a few spots and pick up value and so that's what he did.   We all know Dimitroff wouldn't have done that.    Dimitroff would have said "we loved 'Player X' and couldn't believe he fell that far" and there would have been no trade down.

Results of trade:

Falcons Players:   Richie Grant(projected starting SS) + Drew Dalman(projected starting C/OG)

 IMG_6031.jpg?w=1000&h=600&crop=1

 

IMG_6058.jpg?w=1000&h=600&crop=1

 

Denver Players:    Javonte Williams (projected starting RB) + Seth Williams (depth WR/Auburn who could develop)  - I actually like the long-term potential of Seth Williams

 

Regardless of how Grant and Dalman pan out, I liked the move as Grant was gonna be the pick regardless - so regardless of the results - the GM ingenuity and willingness to take a small risk to create more draft value was really good.    If Grant and Dalman pan out then the actual results of the trade will be fantastic as well.

 

Some critics of the trade may say - "yeah but Javonte Williams is a bonafide stud and we should have taken him" - I would retort that RBs have such short shelf lives and giving them 2nd contracts are not adviseable as we have seen time after time after time.  I liked the Mike Davis signing on the cheap and the UDFAs - Hawkins and Huntley - bet we get some production out of those guys.    Get the offensive line right and there will always be RBs available that can thrive - you don't need a STAR RB to be successful in the NFL - you just need a competant running game and you need to be able to run the ball.

Both Grant and Dalman are also at positions where you can have 10 years + of success in the NFL as generally good players at those positions can have long careers.

We also know that Fontenot never shut the door on moving down from #4 - however, he wanted a lot for the pick because he knew the value of Kyle Pitts and he knew a move down would likely mean losing the player.   He probably would have made the move had he gotten a Godfather offer like the one the Dolphins got - but he never did - liked the move standing pat there and taking the best non-QB in the draft.

Cheers to you Terry Fontenot - long way to go but I like the way you think!

 

Former Saints player, media tweet reactions over Terry Fontenot news

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Now that we have settled in and the dust has cleared - thought it would be a good time to go back and re-visit Terry Fontenot's philosophy in general and - more specifically - his draft day trade w/ D

another thing I picked up in the mini-movie was when you heard Terry Fontenot talking to "George" which would have been Denver Broncos GM George Paton.   Sounds like Fontenot asked for the 4th but it

Dalman could easily be our next Mud Duck. FANTASTIC pick and trade by TF.    I agree g-dawg, TD would have just run around squeeing going "yay our pick is available and we didn't have to tra

5 minutes ago, g-dawg said:

Now that we have settled in and the dust has cleared - thought it would be a good time to go back and re-visit Terry Fontenot's philosophy in general and - more specifically - his draft day trade w/ Denver.

Falcons Traded:  #2-035 and #6-219

Denver Traded:   #2-040 and #4-114

I loved this trade for Falcons

 

Denver Side:  Denver likes the trade because they got a potentially great Running Back there in Javonte Williams.   I like the trade for Denver as Williams could end up being the best RB in this draft - I probably have him RB#2 behind only Najee.   Of course Javonte ended up going RB#3 behind the home-run hitter Travis Etienne as well.

 

Falcons Side:    I believe it was obvious that Richie Grant was "their guy".  Who knows if they liked Travis Moerhig or not but we know the Falcons preferred Grant as he Moerhig was available and we passed over - Moerhig had some injury concerns as well.   I actually believe Grant a more well-rounded safety who can play multiple positions and better tackler and tougher as well.   What I love about FONTENOT here was he was probably mostly locked in on Grant but he felt he could move down a few spots and pick up value and so that's what he did.   We all know Dimitroff wouldn't have done that.    Dimitroff would have said "we loved 'Player X' and couldn't believe he fell that far" and there would have been no trade down.

Results of trade:

Falcons Players:   Richie Grant(projected starting SS) + Drew Dalman(projected starting C/OG)

Denver Players:    Javonte Williams (projected starting RB) + Seth Williams (depth WR/Auburn who could develop)  - I actually like the long-term potential of Seth Williams

 

Regardless of how Grant and Dalman pan out, I liked the move as Grant was gonna be the pick regardless - so regardless of the results - the GM ingenuity and willingness to take a small risk to create more draft value was really good.    If Grant and Dalman pan out then the actual results of the trade will be fantastic as well.

Some critics of the trade may say - "yeah but Javonte Williams is a bonafide stud and we should have taken him" - I would retort that RBs have such short shelf lives and giving them 2nd contracts are not adviseable as we have seen time after time after time.  I liked the Mike Davis signing on the cheap and the UDFAs - Hawkins and Huntley - bet we get some production out of those guys.    Get the offensive line right and there will always be RBs available that can thrive - you don't need a STAR RB to be successful in the NFL - you just need a competant running game and you need to be able to run the ball.

Both Grant and Dalman are also at positions where you can have 10 years + of success in the NFL as generally good players at those positions can have long careers.

We also know that Fontenot never shut the door on moving down from #4 - however, he wanted a lot for the pick because he knew the value of Kyle Pitts and he knew a move down would likely mean losing the player.   He probably would have made the move had he gotten a Godfather offer like the one the Dolphins got - but he never did - liked the move standing pat there and taking the best non-QB in the draft.

Cheers to you Terry Fontenot - long way to go but I like the way you think!

Nice analysis. Back doesnt have to be all world for this system. We picked up some decent options in free agency and the draft.  Its a passing league there is a lot of value in stopping the pass and giving ice time.

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Yes being that grant wasn't the highest "graded" safety by the pundits, there was opportunity to move back slightly. Worse case scenario we pick up the other safety and get the extra lineman. That was a smart move.

And as we heard Detroit was on the call at #4. Moving down to 7, they probably weren't offering much more than an additional day 2 and maybe day 4 pick. Not worth the value of Pitts.

Also true on the Star RB not being required. Henry wasn't a star until he got with AS. I'm hoping CP can be that guy with a lot more work in our offense.

Both decisions were on the money.

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Balls of steel if he did lock in on Grant and traded down. 
 

And that is great draft management as you say. Like people would always come back and say ‘see, so and so player panned out, not a reach’. But if you can get that value later with extra compensation added, that’s when the draft goes from tic tac toe to chess. Excited to see how his drafts start unfolding through the years

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another thing I picked up in the mini-movie was when you heard Terry Fontenot talking to "George" which would have been Denver Broncos GM George Paton.   Sounds like Fontenot asked for the 4th but it took Fontenot being willing to "give the 6th rounder" back to make the deal go - and Fontenot did it - that was smart.    Looking at it from Paton's side - he could justify as he wasn't losing a pick - just a less valuable pick.

GMs have to be willing to trust each other and put yourselves in the other GMs shoes sometimes.   Also, when you are honest and don't try to kill the other team sometimes on small trades - that works well and builds trust - and that's important.

It was well worth giving the 6th back to Denver to move up 105 spots in the draft to take a potential starter in Drew Dalman.

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7 minutes ago, g-dawg said:

another thing I picked up in the mini-movie was when you heard Terry Fontenot talking to "George" which would have been Denver Broncos GM George Paton.   Sounds like Fontenot asked for the 4th but it took Fontenot being willing to "give the 6th rounder" back to make the deal go - and Fontenot did it - that was smart.    Looking at it from Paton's side - he could justify as he wasn't losing a pick - just a less valuable pick.

GMs have to be willing to trust each other and put yourselves in the other GMs shoes sometimes.   Also, when you are honest and don't try to kill the other team sometimes on small trades - that works well and builds trust - and that's important.

It was well worth giving the 6th back to Denver to move up 105 spots in the draft to take a potential starter in Drew Dalman.

Yes, and did you notice the Detroit call? He sounded pretty grateful for whatever the offer was, saying "Thank you" and being very cordial with them. Don't try to screw other GMs over and it'll probably be rewarded in the future with a good reputation as someone willing to listen, etc.

Not that it takes a genius to realize that.

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1 minute ago, red falcon said:

I think TF will be here for a while. I thought the same TD. I think his decisions down the road started to be influenced by mr blank though. Not to mention quinn playing favorites and refusing to change.

This new regime seems really smart and i think blank has learned from the past.

that 2014 free agency for Falcons when they signed Paul Soliai, Tyson Jackson and that massive OG - where basically in one offseason they totally changed strategies - that was a bad look and kind of felt desperate.

I don't think the Julio trade did this roster in - it was everything else and just not enough picks overall over 13yr span.   We had 9 picks this year which is good - need 9-10 picks every year and a GM that is willing to move up and down but focus on BPA and not "ok this is our biggest need - we are taking that need in 1st round"  every......single.......year.....  Falcons skipped over some Gold Jacket players following that strategy.

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I was also surprised how low key and calm the draft room was at each pick. There was like no talking and it was like the decisions were already made on x, y, or z player at each pick.

Seemed very well organized and rehearsed. Methodical. 

In the future though, once the roster becomes more well established and we are drafting those backup and role player types, I can see TF trading picks to move up (the Saints always seem to target a player who might not be available when they are going to pick, and go get him).

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Dalman could easily be our next Mud Duck. FANTASTIC pick and trade by TF. 

 

I agree g-dawg, TD would have just run around squeeing going "yay our pick is available and we didn't have to trade up!" because he's impatient and needs-based. 

 

TF sees the whole field, TD had tunnel vision. 

 

zRxfo72.png

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5 minutes ago, g-dawg said:

that 2014 free agency for Falcons when they signed Paul Soliai, Tyson Jackson and that massive OG - where basically in one offseason they totally changed strategies - that was a bad look and kind of felt desperate.

I don't think the Julio trade did this roster in - it was everything else and just not enough picks overall over 13yr span.   We had 9 picks this year which is good - need 9-10 picks every year and a GM that is willing to move up and down but focus on BPA and not "ok this is our biggest need - we are taking that need in 1st round"  every......single.......year.....  Falcons skipped over some Gold Jacket players following that strategy.

Yeah they lost their vision. Its never good when your philosophy completley changes. Like when dq had vic and tak standing up it was over. 

Edited by red falcon
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33 minutes ago, g-dawg said:

Now that we have settled in and the dust has cleared - thought it would be a good time to go back and re-visit Terry Fontenot's philosophy in general and - more specifically - his draft day trade w/ Denver.

Falcons Traded:  #2-035 and #6-219

Denver Traded:   #2-040 and #4-114

I loved this trade for Falcons

 

Denver Side:  Denver likes the trade because they got a potentially great Running Back there in Javonte Williams.   I like the trade for Denver as Williams could end up being the best RB in this draft - I probably have him RB#2 behind only Najee.   Of course Javonte ended up going RB#3 behind the home-run hitter Travis Etienne as well.

Falcons Side:    I believe it was obvious that Richie Grant was "their guy".  Who knows if they liked Travis Moerhig or not but we know the Falcons preferred Grant as he Moerhig was available and we passed over - Moerhig had some injury concerns as well.   I actually believe Grant a more well-rounded safety who can play multiple positions and better tackler and tougher as well.   What I love about FONTENOT here was he was probably mostly locked in on Grant but he felt he could move down a few spots and pick up value and so that's what he did.   We all know Dimitroff wouldn't have done that.    Dimitroff would have said "we loved 'Player X' and couldn't believe he fell that far" and there would have been no trade down.

Results of trade:

Falcons Players:   Richie Grant(projected starting SS) + Drew Dalman(projected starting C/OG)

 IMG_6031.jpg?w=1000&h=600&crop=1

 

IMG_6058.jpg?w=1000&h=600&crop=1

 

Denver Players:    Javonte Williams (projected starting RB) + Seth Williams (depth WR/Auburn who could develop)  - I actually like the long-term potential of Seth Williams

 

Regardless of how Grant and Dalman pan out, I liked the move as Grant was gonna be the pick regardless - so regardless of the results - the GM ingenuity and willingness to take a small risk to create more draft value was really good.    If Grant and Dalman pan out then the actual results of the trade will be fantastic as well.

 

Some critics of the trade may say - "yeah but Javonte Williams is a bonafide stud and we should have taken him" - I would retort that RBs have such short shelf lives and giving them 2nd contracts are not adviseable as we have seen time after time after time.  I liked the Mike Davis signing on the cheap and the UDFAs - Hawkins and Huntley - bet we get some production out of those guys.    Get the offensive line right and there will always be RBs available that can thrive - you don't need a STAR RB to be successful in the NFL - you just need a competant running game and you need to be able to run the ball.

Both Grant and Dalman are also at positions where you can have 10 years + of success in the NFL as generally good players at those positions can have long careers.

We also know that Fontenot never shut the door on moving down from #4 - however, he wanted a lot for the pick because he knew the value of Kyle Pitts and he knew a move down would likely mean losing the player.   He probably would have made the move had he gotten a Godfather offer like the one the Dolphins got - but he never did - liked the move standing pat there and taking the best non-QB in the draft.

Cheers to you Terry Fontenot - long way to go but I like the way you think!

 

Former Saints player, media tweet reactions over Terry Fontenot news

I will admit that I wasn't a big fan of the trade. I wanted them to take Williams, but if Grant turns out to be a stud, it was a good call.

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1 minute ago, Boise Falcon Fan said:

I will admit that I wasn't a big fan of the trade. I wanted them to take Williams, but if Grant turns out to be a stud, it was a good call.

show me a RB where the NFL team did the right thing by giving him a 2nd contract.

Falcons just need to draft an average of 1 RB every year on Day#2/3 and we will be fine at that position - never give a draftedRB a 2nd contract no matter how good they are.

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37 minutes ago, g-dawg said:

Now that we have settled in and the dust has cleared - thought it would be a good time to go back and re-visit Terry Fontenot's philosophy in general and - more specifically - his draft day trade w/ Denver.

Falcons Traded:  #2-035 and #6-219

Denver Traded:   #2-040 and #4-114

I loved this trade for Falcons

 

Denver Side:  Denver likes the trade because they got a potentially great Running Back there in Javonte Williams.   I like the trade for Denver as Williams could end up being the best RB in this draft - I probably have him RB#2 behind only Najee.   Of course Javonte ended up going RB#3 behind the home-run hitter Travis Etienne as well.

Falcons Side:    I believe it was obvious that Richie Grant was "their guy".  Who knows if they liked Travis Moerhig or not but we know the Falcons preferred Grant as he Moerhig was available and we passed over - Moerhig had some injury concerns as well.   I actually believe Grant a more well-rounded safety who can play multiple positions and better tackler and tougher as well.   What I love about FONTENOT here was he was probably mostly locked in on Grant but he felt he could move down a few spots and pick up value and so that's what he did.   We all know Dimitroff wouldn't have done that.    Dimitroff would have said "we loved 'Player X' and couldn't believe he fell that far" and there would have been no trade down.

Results of trade:

Falcons Players:   Richie Grant(projected starting SS) + Drew Dalman(projected starting C/OG)

 IMG_6031.jpg?w=1000&h=600&crop=1

 

IMG_6058.jpg?w=1000&h=600&crop=1

 

Denver Players:    Javonte Williams (projected starting RB) + Seth Williams (depth WR/Auburn who could develop)  - I actually like the long-term potential of Seth Williams

 

Regardless of how Grant and Dalman pan out, I liked the move as Grant was gonna be the pick regardless - so regardless of the results - the GM ingenuity and willingness to take a small risk to create more draft value was really good.    If Grant and Dalman pan out then the actual results of the trade will be fantastic as well.

 

Some critics of the trade may say - "yeah but Javonte Williams is a bonafide stud and we should have taken him" - I would retort that RBs have such short shelf lives and giving them 2nd contracts are not adviseable as we have seen time after time after time.  I liked the Mike Davis signing on the cheap and the UDFAs - Hawkins and Huntley - bet we get some production out of those guys.    Get the offensive line right and there will always be RBs available that can thrive - you don't need a STAR RB to be successful in the NFL - you just need a competant running game and you need to be able to run the ball.

Both Grant and Dalman are also at positions where you can have 10 years + of success in the NFL as generally good players at those positions can have long careers.

We also know that Fontenot never shut the door on moving down from #4 - however, he wanted a lot for the pick because he knew the value of Kyle Pitts and he knew a move down would likely mean losing the player.   He probably would have made the move had he gotten a Godfather offer like the one the Dolphins got - but he never did - liked the move standing pat there and taking the best non-QB in the draft.

Cheers to you Terry Fontenot - long way to go but I like the way you think!

 

Former Saints player, media tweet reactions over Terry Fontenot news

Great assessment.

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28 minutes ago, red falcon said:

I think TF will be here for a while. I thought the same TD. I think his decisions down the road started to be influenced by mr blank though. Not to mention quinn playing favorites and refusing to change.

This new regime seems really smart and i think blank has learned from the past.

I wonder who's idea it was the give big contracts to Freeman and Beasley. I wonder if TD really wanted to make Matt Julio and Grady Falcons for life.

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3 minutes ago, Falcons Fan MVP said:

I wonder who's idea it was the give big contracts to Freeman and Beasley. I wonder if TD really wanted to make Matt Julio and Grady Falcons for life.

I think the fact they were so close played a lot into it. I think TD was following orders in many cases. They were their own worst enemies. But its a shot in the dark.

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Agreed G Dawg.  I would have been fine staying there taking Williams, Barmore, or Teven Jenkins.

But I'm generally for trading down.  Like it better in the first (because you get more in return) but I like the thinking.

To add to it, I don't think they were solely focused on Grant.  Fontenot talked about having his "clumps" and if several are still there, being able to move back.  If you key in on one guy, you're always going to miss value.  If you have 5 guys you think are team fits and equivalent BPAs...then you have the freedom to drop back if a few of those guys are still left.  I'm assuming that's what they did here.

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8 minutes ago, takeitdown said:

Agreed G Dawg.  I would have been fine staying there taking Williams, Barmore, or Teven Jenkins.

But I'm generally for trading down.  Like it better in the first (because you get more in return) but I like the thinking.

To add to it, I don't think they were solely focused on Grant.  Fontenot talked about having his "clumps" and if several are still there, being able to move back.  If you key in on one guy, you're always going to miss value.  If you have 5 guys you think are team fits and equivalent BPAs...then you have the freedom to drop back if a few of those guys are still left.  I'm assuming that's what they did here.

I agree with your overall point and the word "clumps" TF even used that word in one of his interviews one time.   Obviously any time you move down you could lose a player - just saying they moved down 5 spots and don't believe they were taking any of the 3 players you mentioned over Grant.

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2 minutes ago, g-dawg said:

I agree with your overall point and the word "clumps" TF even used that word in one of his interviews one time.   Obviously any time you move down you could lose a player - just saying they moved down 5 spots and don't believe they were taking any of the 3 players you mentioned over Grant.

That could well be true.  I just was glad to hear clumps.  Dimitroff actually did pretty well in general, but I hated keying in on one guy.  I like the idea of having groupings and being willing to move around within those.

The ones I wanted there were either Williams or Moehrig or Samuels.  So you could well be right that they had their guy.  It looked like a good place (value wise) for OL or secondary, RB just if you saw a big dropoff from Williams to the next guys.

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6 minutes ago, takeitdown said:

That could well be true.  I just was glad to hear clumps.  Dimitroff actually did pretty well in general, but I hated keying in on one guy.  I like the idea of having groupings and being willing to move around within those.

The ones I wanted there were either Williams or Moehrig or Samuels.  So you could well be right that they had their guy.  It looked like a good place (value wise) for OL or secondary, RB just if you saw a big dropoff from Williams to the next guys.

w/ RBs, I have a love/hate relationship w/ the position.

LOVE - that a rookie RB can contribute mightily and in such an impactful way - moreso than just about any other position - their rook years.

HATE - that by a time a rookie RB completes his first contract he is already a depreciating asset - but if he balled out those first 3-5 years, they want to be paid huge dollars.

While early round RBs tend to succeed in the NFL - so do a lot of later round and UDFA RBs - I just prefer to take them later, develop them and keep taking them late every year and never pay a RB elite money.

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1 hour ago, g-dawg said:

What I love about FONTENOT here was he was probably mostly locked in on Grant but he felt he could move down a few spots and pick up value and so that's what he did.   We all know Dimitroff wouldn't have done that.    Dimitroff would have said "we loved 'Player X' and couldn't believe he fell that far" and there would have been no trade down. 

Thomas Dimitroff traded back 2 spots from 50 to 52 in 2016, picked Deion Jones and got pick 195 and picked Wes Schweitzer. Yall act like that man was an idiot. An opportunity to move back and be confident you can get your guy doesn't always present itself. 

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1 minute ago, Dem Birds said:

Thomas Dimitroff traded back 2 spots from 50 to 52 in 2016, picked Deion Jones and got pick 195 and picked Wes Schweitzer. Yall act like that man was an idiot. An opportunity to move back and be confident you can get your guy doesn't always present itself. 

lol - you pick the one time in 13yrs where Dimitroff traded down in a significant way - 2 spots as well for a 6th rounder - you could make the argument that really wasn't worth the risk :D:D:D

 

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5 minutes ago, g-dawg said:

w/ RBs, I have a love/hate relationship w/ the position.

LOVE - that a rookie RB can contribute mightily and in such an impactful way - moreso than just about any other position - their rook years.

HATE - that by a time a rookie RB completes his first contract he is already a depreciating asset - but if he balled out those first 3-5 years, they want to be paid huge dollars.

While early round RBs tend to succeed in the NFL - so do a lot of later round and UDFA RBs - I just prefer to take them later, develop them and keep taking them late every year and never pay a RB elite money.

I'm in a similar position, I guess with the caveat being, if you don't feel like you have a good RB room, taking an early rounder has a lot higher likelihood of success.

So my preference is having a decent RB, then always drafting someone in the 60-150 range (late 2nd to late 4th) to come in and compete.  That way if your guy misses, not a big deal and you'll get another next year.  I actually feel similarly about 3rd WR's.  You take these midround guys hoping they're good enough to push more expensive guys off the roster, or keep them performing well by splitting time.

So I probably would have taken Williams (since I don't think we have a good RB room--hopefully wrong) or at least he would have been in the conversation, but then next year or the year after, I'd be taking 4th round guys to supplant him when contract time comes.

I'm good with them going secondary though, because it seemed the only way to get the D to ok this year.

With you either way on not re-upping RBs unless they are cheap or amazing.

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48 minutes ago, g-dawg said:

show me a RB where the NFL team did the right thing by giving him a 2nd contract.

Falcons just need to draft an average of 1 RB every year on Day#2/3 and we will be fine at that position - never give a draftedRB a 2nd contract no matter how good they are.

 

I would refuse to play RB in today's NFL due to their positional value contract and career longevity wise.

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