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Hmm... The Clash are on Punk Rock's Mount Rushmore. Are their most successful records punk rock songs? Popularity be ****ed, both sounded more like traditional rock songs than punk rock. With that being said, nobody will ever confuse them with being anything other than punk.

 

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8 minutes ago, JayOzOne said:

Hmm... The Clash are on Punk Rock's Mount Rushmore. Are their most successful records punk rock songs? Popularity be ****ed, both sounded more like traditional rock songs than punk rock. With that being said, nobody will ever confuse them with being anything other than punk.

 

Because the same album kicked off with "Know Your Rights", a song that still seems to be relevant to the world today. Joe Strummer was the real deal, no matter what style of music he was making. ****, if you pay attention to the lyrics to "Rock the Casbah", he's singing about breaking down the walls of control & oppression placed upon so many under the veil of religion. It's the same way that his idol Woodie Guthrie was punk rock. It's got a heck of a lot more to do with what he saying than the style of music he's playing.

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15 minutes ago, k-train said:

Because the same album kicked off with "Know Your Rights", a song that still seems to be relevant to the world today. Joe Strummer was the real deal, no matter what style of music he was making. ****, if you pay attention to the lyrics to "Rock the Casbah", he's singing about breaking down the walls of control & oppression placed upon so many under the veil of religion. It's the same way that his idol Woodie Guthrie was punk rock. It's got a heck of a lot more to do with what he saying than the style of music he's playing.

There are plenty of songs that rail against government, religion and societal and cultural norms. Most are not considered punk songs. Otherwise, when somebody else brought up Bad Reputation, it would have been prototypically punk from a lyrical standpoint. But there were concerns about the technical merits of that song.

(FTR: I wasn't suggesting that Jett is a punk artist, just that there are clear inflections of it in her music. Didn't mean to derail the thread.)

I guess if there is a disussion worth having, everybody should agree on what "punk rock" refers to. It's more than lyrics. It's more than attitude. Somewhere along the way, good musicians and songwriters started embracing it but I'd surmise a lot of purists believe either (or both) of those are contrary to the idea punk.

But if they are, most groups would eventually evolve into something other than punk because we all get better at our crafts with time. And it can happen from a thematic or technical standpoint; evolution is inevitable. The Clash evolved. The Ramones did too. The Sex Pistols would have evolved. I'd bet that "punk rock" is a nebulous concept and if you asked 50 people for their definition of it, you'd get 50 different answers.

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3 minutes ago, JayOzOne said:

There are plenty of songs that rail against government, religion and societal and cultural norms. Most are not considered punk songs. Otherwise, when somebody else brought up Bad Reputation, it would have been prototypically punk from a lyrical standpoint. But there were concerns about the technical merits of that song.

(FTR: I wasn't suggesting that Jett is a punk artist, just that there are clear inflections of it in her music. Didn't mean to derail the thread.)

I guess if there is a disussion worth having, everybody should agree on what "punk rock" refers to. It's more than lyrics. It's more than attitude. Somewhere along the way, good musicians and songwriters started embracing it but I'd surmise a lot of purists believe either (or both) of those are contrary to the idea punk.

But if they are, most groups would eventually evolve into something other than punk because we all get better at our crafts with time. And it can happen from a thematic or technical standpoint; evolution is inevitable. The Clash evolved. The Ramones did too. The Sex Pistols would have evolved. I'd bet that "punk rock" is a nebulous concept and if you asked 50 people for their definition of it, you'd get 50 different answers.

No doubt that evolution is key... which is why the whole cookie cutter, Hot Topic, plaid pants with tons of zippers, spiked collar, mohawk & patch covered leather jacket = punk rock thing with so much focus of aesthetics & a particular musical style is so maddening.

Punk rock happened as a big "F##K YOU!" to establishment, to the mainstream music industry, and to mainstream culture in general. It happened as a reaction to being force-fed commercial radio pop culture B.S.; and out of necessity, because the people doing it had no other way to express themselves, no places to play, etc.

So when mainstream artists... especially those who make that pop culture B.S... start co-opting those elements because they want to be seen as "edgy" or "cool" it kind of defeats the entire purpose.

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9 minutes ago, k-train said:

No doubt that evolution is key... which is why the whole cookie cutter, Hot Topic, plaid pants with tons of zippers, spiked collar, mohawk & patch covered leather jacket = punk rock thing with so much focus of aesthetics & a particular musical style is so maddening.

Punk rock happened as a big "F##K YOU!" to establishment, to the mainstream music industry, and to mainstream culture in general. It happened as a reaction to being force-fed commercial radio pop culture B.S.; and out of necessity, because the people doing it had no other way to express themselves, no places to play, etc.

So when mainstream artists... especially those who make that pop culture B.S... start co-opting those elements because they want to be seen as "edgy" or "cool" it kind of defeats the entire purpose.

Yeah, there are posers out the ***. I hated Billy Idol (even though I liked some of his songs) because he was a studio punk. Adam Ant, too. And it trends even to this day with Avril Lavigne and others. Pretty sure some consider Billy Eilish to be a punk artist and even though I wouldn't call her a poser, she ain't punk.

In my opinion (and I'm certainly not an expert; barely a fringe fan of the genre), punk rock developed organically like the blues. And like the blues, by the time its influence became apparent in mainstream music, those elements were more calculated than sincere.

I do wonder if David Byrne's pivot away from punk was a result of calculation or simply musical growth, though. I think the band was just too talented to stay where they were (even though they sucked musically when they first performed).

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45 minutes ago, JayOzOne said:

Yeah, there are posers out the ***. I hated Billy Idol (even though I liked some of his songs) because he was a studio punk. Adam Ant, too. And it trends even to this day with Avril Lavigne and others. Pretty sure some consider Billy Eilish to be a punk artist and even though I wouldn't call her a poser, she ain't punk.

In my opinion (and I'm certainly not an expert; barely a fringe fan of the genre), punk rock developed organically like the blues. And like the blues, by the time its influence became apparent in mainstream music, those elements were more calculated than sincere.

I do wonder if David Byrne's pivot away from punk was a result of calculation or simply musical growth, though. I think the band was just too talented to stay where they were (even though they sucked musically when they first performed).

That part is spot on IMO. Marginalized people who can't get their voices heard any other way taking it into their own hands... not taking lessons to learn the "proper" way to play, but making it up as they go, realizing it's more about the way you play than how many notes you can squeeze into a measure. It dang sure ain't about playing everything as clean as can be, because it's music made to reflect the lives of the oppressed... and there ain't a thing nice, neat, or clean about oppression. It's played rough around the edges, because life is rough around the edges. The people playing this aren't taught, they are taking the own initiative, and there doing it by any means necessary. There's no fancy new gear, because there's no money. Instead, they're playing on anything they can get their hands on... usually busted up second rate equipment. And there's no venues either, because all of the existing venue think "your kind" are trouble & won't let you play there. So what do these resourceful folks do?? They open their own venues. From chitlin circuit juke joints to punk rock house shows in the basement of a house full of squatters or a rented out VFW hall... it's that same mentality, that same drive, that same feeling, that same heart, that same soul, that same passion. That stuff cannot be faked.

While more privileged folks an certainly hear that music & enjoy it, when they try to copy it, it often comes off as hollow... because they don't have that same sense of being marginalized. Even if they came from a crappy background, if they've "made it", they can't honestly connect the same way anymore, because they no longer are living it. They can empathize, and they try to bring awareness, but they can't speak about it first hand anymore in a way that feels genuine.

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LMAO @ the "Rolling Stone said it so it must be true" take. Rolling Stone has become the musical equivalent to what ESPN has become for sports.

As Eatcorn mentioned earlier, the term 'punk rock' gets tossed around all the time when it's not actually appropriate. This happens often with lazy journalists who just throw a blanket description on everything.

Let's dig a little deeper into the Yeah, Yeah, Yeahs specifically though...

Karen O grew up going to prep school & then met the drummer at the private liberal arts college they both attended. The guitarist attended a different private liberal arts college.

There is nothing even remotely punk rock about three private school rich kids being weird on purpose.

They are an arty indie rock band.

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1 hour ago, k-train said:

LMAO @ the "Rolling Stone said it so it must be true" take. 

LMAO at a dude in a sub football forum arguing that Rolling Stone is wrong because it doesn't meet his criteria. 

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6 minutes ago, Sponge said:

LMAO at a dude in a sub football forum arguing that Rolling Stone is wrong because it doesn't meet his criteria. 

I’ve only spent two & a half decades running music venues & touring in punk and heavy rock bands. Yeah, what do I know about it? 🙄

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8 minutes ago, k-train said:

I’ve only spent two & a half decades running music venues & touring in punk and heavy rock bands. Yeah, what do I know about it? 🙄

Likewise

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37 minutes ago, k-train said:

Sure.

We've (in ABF) have had many discussions about our concert goings since the early 90's. But if you wanna act like the end all-be all as if your opinion on the genera of music actually means something, then run with it.

25 minutes ago, eatcorn said:

Sponge disagrees with people like it's his lifeblood. Don't sweat it.

You sweat following me around to disagree about me disagreeing. 

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7 minutes ago, Sponge said:

We've (in ABF) have had many discussions about our concert goings since the early 90's. But if you wanna act like the end all-be all as if your opinion on the genera of music actually means something, then run with it.

You sweat following me around to disagree about me disagreeing. 

Sure.

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9 minutes ago, k-train said:

Sure. But then you'd just end up mistakingly calling us a punk band because you read it in Rolling Stone.

it's spelled "mistakenly" not "mistakingly"

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