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The Pigs outta the bag


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3 hours ago, Aleksandr sportolli said:

God you picked a really really horrible time to make this thread.

 

 

The timing couldn't have been worse. 

 

 

If you're looking to pile jump, yeah. But since he's someone actually trying to start a conversation, I think it was great timing to start this thread. We need more community engagement with police forces right now, not less.

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On 4/13/2021 at 2:02 PM, NWFALCON said:

There are cops that go away every year for murder. I briefly mentioned it but the media has focuses on shootings like this that they know will not result in a conviction. 
 

if you’d like We can Pm and i can go over more details on these case laws. I don’t know if people want to be bored by that but it’s like a soccer fan trying to understand penalties in a football game. The rules have to be understood. 
 

i have no desire to defend **** cops. The level of hatred and resentment their actions create make my job more dangerous. 
 

My goal of this thread is to provide explanations of case law and why some people haven’t been convicted. Some folks will accept that and some won’t. 

So I get what you're trying to say, in that you're defending police/the courts in this thread from a strictly legal standpoint. And I understand that as a police officer, part of what you do requires you to believe in the justness of these rules and the justness of what you're doing.

The issue - that I think a lot of folks in this thread are trying to get at - is that a lot of these laws and these rules are problematic. A lot allow for manipulation of the system and outright evil acts to go unpunished. And a lot hold police to an embarrassingly low standard, particularly when juxtaposed against the comparative spending in the US on their police force (and yes, I know it varies a lot by county).

A lot of people will write you off as complicit in being part of a "police state" because you do just recite case law and legal jargon. It's inherent in being part of the police, again, because you want to uphold the law - but that's why you're getting this kind of pushback. It's like arguing with a cop in 2002 about arresting someone for having a couple grams of weed on them. No matter how much you cite the legal justification, there's an inherent wrongness. And we can blame the legal system AND police for the way that's going. It's why it's such a difficult problem to solve

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On 4/16/2021 at 7:14 AM, Doug Carlton said:

this is what happens when a "Good Cop" intervenes...

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/13/nyregion/cariol-horne-police-chokehold.html?fbclid=IwAR1wGb85l9_XoLsksE7-1so8v6ubU2Aw0g5s-ixZN9VY9DqLI9J3h5jawgg

 

"It was a cold November day in Buffalo when Officer Cariol Horne responded to a call for a colleague in need of help. What she encountered was a white officer who appeared to be “in a rage” punching a handcuffed Black man in the face repeatedly as other officers stood by.

Officer Horne, who is Black, heard the handcuffed man say he could not breathe and saw the white officer put him in a chokehold. At that point, court documents show, she forcibly removed the white officer and began to trade blows with him.

In the altercation’s aftermath, Officer Horne was reassigned, hit with departmental charges and, eventually, fired just one year short of the 20 on the force she needed to collect her full pension. She tried, and failed, more than once to have the decision reversed as unfair."

A lot of departments and police unions punish those who break blue lines. It's why initiatives like EPIC are such a big deal (google EPIC and NOPD to see more about that). More resources for officers to speak out or stand up to others without fear of retaliation and resources for active bystandership in general are (imho) one of the best ways we can start seeing real change.

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56 minutes ago, Francis York Morgan said:

A lot of departments and police unions punish those who break blue lines. It's why initiatives like EPIC are such a big deal (google EPIC and NOPD to see more about that). More resources for officers to speak out or stand up to others without fear of retaliation and resources for active bystandership in general are (imho) one of the best ways we can start seeing real change.

Some departments are trying to change the culture. But the link that was provided literally detailed how the entire Buffalo PD was complicit in running a good cop off the job and screwing her out of her due process rights. The union was in on it. The administration was party to it. Multiple safety directors and mayors, as well. This is the same Buffalo PD where a cop push an elderly man to the ground, where he suffered brain damage last summer. A dozen officers witnessed him in a puddle of blood and none gave him aid.

I think OP is a good dude. But it comes off as disingenuous to suggest that things that I've witnessed and read about aren't what they appear to be. I know that my local PD has a horrible culture problem and if a good cop tried to change it, he'd be an ex-cop. I've seen it happen. And the same is true for St. Louis. And Baltimore. And New York. And Los Angeles. And more, I'm sure.

Of course, there are rules and protocols and guidelines that govern professional conduct. But there are built in protections in most union contracts that allow bad cops to escape discipline. And curiously, those protections fail cops like the one in Buffalo who was fired for saving a life and trying to police the police.

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4 hours ago, JayOzOne said:

Some departments are trying to change the culture. But the link that was provided literally detailed how the entire Buffalo PD was complicit in running a good cop off the job and screwing her out of her due process rights. The union was in on it. The administration was party to it. Multiple safety directors and mayors, as well. This is the same Buffalo PD where a cop push an elderly man to the ground, where he suffered brain damage last summer. A dozen officers witnessed him in a puddle of blood and none gave him aid.

I think OP is a good dude. But it comes off as disingenuous to suggest that things that I've witnessed and read about aren't what they appear to be. I know that my local PD has a horrible culture problem and if a good cop tried to change it, he'd be an ex-cop. I've seen it happen. And the same is true for St. Louis. And Baltimore. And New York. And Los Angeles. And more, I'm sure.

Of course, there are rules and protocols and guidelines that govern professional conduct. But there are built in protections in most union contracts that allow bad cops to escape discipline. And curiously, those protections fail cops like the one in Buffalo who was fired for saving a life and trying to police the police.

I mean, I was agreeing with you. Part of why that happens is there are no measures in place in many departments for lower ranking officers to do the right thing because of fear of retaliation.

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7 hours ago, Francis York Morgan said:

If you're looking to pile jump, yeah. But since he's someone actually trying to start a conversation, I think it was great timing to start this thread. We need more community engagement with police forces right now, not less.

It's not about pile jumping, it's about this last week or so being one of the worst weeks for law enforcement in.....maybe my entire life. It doesn't exactly produce an environment that is conducive to the kind of conversations that he wants to have. But the timing seems especially bad considering the dude stated that he's been contemplating making the thread for a year or so and all this goes down after he does.

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7 hours ago, Francis York Morgan said:

I mean, I was agreeing with you. Part of why that happens is there are no measures in place in many departments for lower ranking officers to do the right thing because of fear of retaliation.

Oh, I wasn't disagreeing with you. I don't think... I believe most cops want to do a good job. I think most communities want to trust them. But there are just too many mechanisms in place to protect the worst of the lot and unfortunately, those mechanisms flush the good cops out. The whole horrible Christopher Darden saga came about when the union and the LAPD killed the dreams of the wrong guy by treating him worse than the cops he tried to report.

In my city, our previous police chief made a concerted effort to reach out and ask the public to trust her and her department. She and several members of her staff et with local clergy and held meet and greets in community centers in some of the most crime-ridden areas of town and I though she may have been making headway.

Then, video was released of a cop kicking a prone and handcuffed suspect in the head. After weeks of "investigation", she recommended a one day suspension without pay. The city's safety director was less inclined and ordered the cop to be terminated. The union rallied and smeared the mayor and safety director like always when a cop is being disciplined here. As ever in situations like this, it went to arbitration and the arbitrator concluded that the one day suspension was sufficient and the cop got his job back minus a paycheck.

The chief held no more community meetings because she knew that nobody trusted her word or her cops to hold themselves as accountable as they hold the public. Her successor was hired to reform the division but after our cops went buck wild during last summer's protests with no accountability, he was fired. He was still in his probationary period and proved that all of his talk about holding his guys to a higher standard fell short.

Who watches the watchmen?

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8 hours ago, Doug Carlton said:

JUSTIFIED SHOOTING - CREDIT WHERE IT IS DUE!

LEO saw the imminent threat amidst the chaos

LEO acted before the murder could occur

LEO put 3 rounds into the the murderer, no bystanders hit

 

Amazing

 

 

My wife and I are arguing over this. I told her that any hesitation and the woman in the pink sweatsuit was going to be gashed. But my honey thinks that there was opportunity lost to deescalate the situation. If he did anything else, there'd probably be two dead people from that incident. I feel horrible that that girl is gone so soon though.

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And this is part of the reason why CPD's outreach falls on deaf ears. Too many cops don't care if you know that they don't care. We live in an ostensibly free speech society, but there's a time to show your *** and a time to shut up*.

BTW: Am I late to the party since I just found out that typing the letters Ess Tee Ef You is automatically edited to display "Shut up" on the boards? Lesson learned.

 

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2 hours ago, JayOzOne said:

Watch the union get his job back. Their CBAs are written to make termination with cause almost impossible.

He probably won’t. I don’t know their contract or department standards, but you can be saying **** like that on social media. 

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2 hours ago, Francis York Morgan said:

What's your opinion on Rittenhouse? Not being facetious.

Not asking me but he’s a punk kid who had his mind warped by whatever right wing source he found and deserves to be made an example of by the judicial system

Edited by NightPain
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8 hours ago, NightPain said:

Not asking me but he’s a punk kid who had his mind warped by whatever right wing source he found and deserves to be made an example of by the judicial system

He’s going to get off on the most serious charges. The video is enough for reasonable doubt for the murder charge, now that he fired his insane Qanon layers the current ones (who still sound shiesty for other reasons, like lying to the Court about their client’s whereabouts) they have a decent self defense argument.

Don’t be surprised if he’s acquitted of the serious charges. It’s still ****** his mom transported him and a long rifle across state lines to protect property he didn’t own, but he’s gonna skate on the murder charge. 

I don’t think any of the three men he killed were black, so I don’t know what that national reaction will be like if he’s acquitted. 

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