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What's Best For The Future.....


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55 minutes ago, JDaveG said:

For what it's worth, if the clear choice at 4 is a QB AND we have no option to trade down, I expect TF to take the QB.  Because short or long term, that's his philosophy.  I'm down with a QB at 4, but only if TF and AS think he's head and shoulders the best player on the board AND they think taking him is better than trading down.

Exactly. I just don't want us jumping on a guy because we're in the top five and everybody gets whipped into a frenzy about that shiny object.

Even they know that if they did pull that trigger, they'll have backed themselves into a corner and absolutely have to win with this team without the benefit of a top 5 pick helping at all for the next 2-3 years at least. 

We might as well treat this offseason as if we don't have a top pick. 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Francis York Morgan said:

If we trade down and land a 1st next year, we could very well be in a similar spot as the Dolphins this year (though they won't take a QB). Alternatively, we'll have all the ammo we need to trade up if need be...or just take a QB outside of the top 10 since it's far from a guarantee and they'll be able to have a better team around them. I don't get this argument at all.

I think folks forget that trading down is a gift that can keep on giving.

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1 hour ago, JDaveG said:

Wow, I'm glad somebody is finally discussing how we will never be in a position to get a franchise QB again.  This topic has been glaringly absent from this board for months now.

Thank you for saying what needs to be said.

This is not true at all. If we trade down, we will be getting an extra 1st round pick next year. We could easily bundle that with our 1st round pick to trade up next year, and if next year there isn't a QB we want then we trade one of those first round picks to get an extra 1st rounder the year after that...rinse and repeat until we get that QB we want, when that time is here.

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I will beat this drum everyday till I die.  The team makes the QB not the other way around KC already playoff team when Mahomes took over, SEA had a once in a lifetime Defense and HOF RB when Wilson was developing.  Brady has won more titles with top defense and solid special teams than with splashy QB performances from himself.  The best tactic is to build the best overall team then if needed find a QB to lead it.  If in two years we are a playoff roster and we need to trade up to find Ryan's successor so be it.  But build the team first otherwise you risk wasting the young guys prime years or worse yet getting him shell-shocked ala David Carr and Joey Harrington.  Killing good young QBs is a common practice amongst the worst run franchises in football.  Don't be the Jets killing endless careers be the Chiefs/Titans/Browns putting the QB in a successful situation from the jump.

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2 hours ago, realhomie81 said:

So I've read many topics about what we should do at the four spot in the draft.  Some want a QB and some want to trade down and acquire more picks.  I'm for either option, but I just need to know something.  If we don't go QB and trade down when do we draft our next QB?  I don't see us being in the position to draft a franchise QB anytime soon after this year.  So if we're planning drafting a QB in 2022 or 2023 what are we willing to give up?  Yeah, QBs drafted early don't always pan out but majority do so a team would have to be in at least the top 10 sniff the top QBs in that draft class without having to give up a lot.  To be honest there's only two other QBs in this draft outside of the top four or five that I would consider drafting in a later round and that's Desmond Ridder and Zac Thomas.  I know some may say what about Kyle Trask or Mac Jones but for some reason they just don't seem to do it for me but that's just my opinion.  Anyway I'm just curious to see what other fan's think. 

Good question. I think if you actually count every QB in the top 10 and see where they are now, a lot fewer pan out than you think. But the ones that do overshadow all those that don't. 

There's a lot of ways to skin a cat (or find our next QB), and if we look at history, AS and TF haven't used the draft as their approach to finding their franchise QB, so why would they do so now? If we take one early, I hope it's not at 4 and preferably 2nd round and beyond. If that guy ends up being just a backup, well we need one of those too.

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2 hours ago, falcons007 said:

If any of the top QB guys fall in late first round or early second round, TF should have a plan to trade back up from #35 to draft a QB. I don’t want them to reach or draft thinking we are not gonna draft this high again. 

For what it's worth, I don't even want to do that.  Too many holes on this team, and too little talent.  We need to maximize draft capital.  I wouldn't trade up until at least 2023 if I'm TF.  There are no "can't miss" prospects.  The last one I put in that category was Vic Beasley.

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59 minutes ago, Alomar said:

This is not true at all. If we trade down, we will be getting an extra 1st round pick next year. We could easily bundle that with our 1st round pick to trade up next year, and if next year there isn't a QB we want then we trade one of those first round picks to get an extra 1st rounder the year after that...rinse and repeat until we get that QB we want, when that time is here.

Yes, but it's unpossible to get another QB in a later year.  Because this year's first round is stacked with can't miss HOF talent.

Purple is implied here.

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2 hours ago, Mister pudding said:

Let us look at this a different way. There are possibly 10 qbs going in the 1st two rounds... can we agree on that?

Maybe 60-65% of teams are solid with who their qb is at the moment. This will count Dak wherever he goes. Still agree?

How many teams could possibly be looking for a qb over the next 2 years unless the one they picked s**t the bed already? This is how an Aaron Rodgers or Big Ben fall to the teens. Supply and demand, my friend.

if i'm reading this correctly, what you're saying is we should wait til next year because we could grab an elite level talent qb later in the first due to less teams looking for a qb?

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15 minutes ago, JDaveG said:

For what it's worth, I don't even want to do that.  Too many holes on this team, and too little talent.  We need to maximize draft capital.  I wouldn't trade up until at least 2023 if I'm TF.  There are no "can't miss" prospects.  The last one I put in that category was Vic Beasley.

That is worst case scenario for me. I hope TF and AS build a great team and not expecting the QB to play hero ball. Imagine a rookie Qb on crappy team, that’s a recipe for disaster.

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13 minutes ago, Mister pudding said:

Spot on my friend

in that case i agree 100% 😁

and it is a very good point. qb's that are going to be drafted in the top 10 this year would normally be late first round and second round guys. and of course, people don't look past this year or they'd realize that there are some serious qb prospects in the 2022 draft, and 2023, and 2024, and so on.....

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2 hours ago, JDaveG said:

The bigger issue, and this is something @falcons007 has pointed out a lot, "the future" for TF and AS is 2-3 years, max.  They don't have the luxury of doing the long con rebuild.  The truth is, they win by year 2 or they're on the hot seat.  So if you have a QB, then you don't need a QB.  We need a backup.  We need to be planning for the future.  But spending no. 4 on a QB had better pay immediate dividends, or all they're building for is the next FO and coaching staff.  Because they'll both be gone if we don't win.

That's how the NFL is.

For all you that think our HC needs a rookie QB at 4th need to wake up to the real world.  TF and AS knows that AB wants  significant improvement now.  They know thier contracts. They cant do that w/o keeping ryan and significant player improvement thru draft/FAs.

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3 hours ago, thanat0s said:

If he's still getting it done, there's no reason to replace him. You ride that HOF train til the wheels come off.  Anyone who believes some rook of any kind is coming in here and having success immediately, or even year two, is kidding himself. 

Once we put a kid in that spot starting, be prepared for him to fail, and lots of losing, because history says that's exactly what will happen. 

Again, what has the past 3 years been? Are we supposed to ignore the fact that we are 4-12 last year with the starting QB not missing a single game. Or the fact we have been eliminated that past 3 years by mid-season....but get prepared to lose with a young QB.

Priceless.

 

Edited by PointSwayzee
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2 minutes ago, PointSwayzee said:

Again, what has the past 3 years been? Are we supposed to ignore the fact that we are 4-12 last year with the starting QB not missing a single game. Or the fact we have been eliminated that past 3 years by mid-season....but get prepared to lose with a young QB.

Priceless.

 

You're not wrong.  And Matt isn't immune to criticism, he has had his issues for sure.  I would just submit this...the bulk of the problems over the past three years rests squarely on the shoulders of two men:  Dan Quinn and Dirk Koetter

The rub for me is we know QBs are hit or miss.  We know missing can set franchises back years.  We also know what we have with Matt, he is a proven commodity in the league, borderline HoF, and I do not believe his play or physical abilities are in decline so much as the offensive scheme he has been in has been in decline.  For me, best case scenario when taking into account both now and future success (including cap and dead cap) would be to build your team as you should no matter who is under center with great lines, great run game and great defense.  If you spend the next few years building towards THAT, Matt will not only thrive in that situation but it would make the transition to rookie as seamless as possible.  If you threw a rookie into the offense the past two seasons, as bad as it was with Matt, it would have been remarkably worse imo

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2 minutes ago, athell said:

You're not wrong.  And Matt isn't immune to criticism, he has had his issues for sure.  I would just submit this...the bulk of the problems over the past three years rests squarely on the shoulders of two men:  Dan Quinn and Dirk Koetter

The rub for me is we know QBs are hit or miss.  We know missing can set franchises back years.  We also know what we have with Matt, he is a proven commodity in the league, borderline HoF, and I do not believe his play or physical abilities are in decline so much as the offensive scheme he has been in has been in decline.  For me, best case scenario when taking into account both now and future success (including cap and dead cap) would be to build your team as you should no matter who is under center with great lines, great run game and great defense.  If you spend the next few years building towards THAT, Matt will not only thrive in that situation but it would make the transition to rookie as seamless as possible.  If you threw a rookie into the offense the past two seasons, as bad as it was with Matt, it would have been remarkably worse imo

Exactly! Perfect post 

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10 minutes ago, athell said:

You're not wrong.  And Matt isn't immune to criticism, he has had his issues for sure.  I would just submit this...the bulk of the problems over the past three years rests squarely on the shoulders of two men:  Dan Quinn and Dirk Koetter

The rub for me is we know QBs are hit or miss.  We know missing can set franchises back years.  We also know what we have with Matt, he is a proven commodity in the league, borderline HoF, and I do not believe his play or physical abilities are in decline so much as the offensive scheme he has been in has been in decline.  For me, best case scenario when taking into account both now and future success (including cap and dead cap) would be to build your team as you should no matter who is under center with great lines, great run game and great defense.  If you spend the next few years building towards THAT, Matt will not only thrive in that situation but it would make the transition to rookie as seamless as possible.  If you threw a rookie into the offense the past two seasons, as bad as it was with Matt, it would have been remarkably worse imo

If you throw a rookie in to same situation, you will end up getting Sam Darnold. 

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1 hour ago, athell said:

You're not wrong.  And Matt isn't immune to criticism, he has had his issues for sure.  I would just submit this...the bulk of the problems over the past three years rests squarely on the shoulders of two men:  Dan Quinn and Dirk Koetter

The rub for me is we know QBs are hit or miss.  We know missing can set franchises back years.  We also know what we have with Matt, he is a proven commodity in the league, borderline HoF, and I do not believe his play or physical abilities are in decline so much as the offensive scheme he has been in has been in decline.  For me, best case scenario when taking into account both now and future success (including cap and dead cap) would be to build your team as you should no matter who is under center with great lines, great run game and great defense.  If you spend the next few years building towards THAT, Matt will not only thrive in that situation but it would make the transition to rookie as seamless as possible.  If you threw a rookie into the offense the past two seasons, as bad as it was with Matt, it would have been remarkably worse imo

I can't not disagree with anything your saying either. I'm not even necessarily advocating for that qb#4 in my post, merely bring up a bit of the irony, I guess.

Personally, I wish there was a Chase Young in this draft with these QB's because that would be the easy call for all of us. He is not there and now it pulls the fanbase in extreme directions.

Regardless, what the call is, this debate won't be decided on the 2021 season alone, and that is something everyone needs to understand.

 

 

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1 minute ago, PointSwayzee said:

I can't not disagree with anything your saying either. I'm not even necessarily advocating for that qb#4 in my post, merely bring up a bit of the irony, I guess.

Personally, I wish there was a Chase Young in this draft with these QB's because that would be the easy call for all of us. He is not there and now it pulls the fanbase in extreme directions.

Regardless, what the call is, this debate won't be decided on the 2021 season alone, and that is something everyone needs to understand.

 

 

This is our luck.  Finally get that top 5 pick and there's no Chase Young/Khalil Mack :( 

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6 hours ago, realhomie81 said:

So I've read many topics about what we should do at the four spot in the draft.  Some want a QB and some want to trade down and acquire more picks.  I'm for either option, but I just need to know something.  If we don't go QB and trade down when do we draft our next QB?  I don't see us being in the position to draft a franchise QB anytime soon after this year.  So if we're planning drafting a QB in 2022 or 2023 what are we willing to give up?  Yeah, QBs drafted early don't always pan out but majority do so a team would have to be in at least the top 10 sniff the top QBs in that draft class without having to give up a lot.  To be honest there's only two other QBs in this draft outside of the top four or five that I would consider drafting in a later round and that's Desmond Ridder and Zac Thomas.  I know some may say what about Kyle Trask or Mac Jones but for some reason they just don't seem to do it for me but that's just my opinion.  Anyway I'm just curious to see what other fan's think. 

I think we’re 3-4 years away from needing to invest a high pick in a QB. I say go mid-round (4-5) Newman or Trask and see if either develops behind Top 10 QB Ryan.

BTW, the future is now. If these draft spots are handled correctly, this team can turn around just as a fast as did in Quinn’s 1st two seasons. 

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6 hours ago, Foo Falcons said:

Recent years shows the majority actually don't pan out. I think you try and find a guy in Rds2-4 or in a perfect world we're picking at the back end of the 1st, preferably 32, and maybe can move up a few spots for a guy we really like. Best case scenario, we don't have to worry about this until 2025 or so..

You sound delusional 

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