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1 minute ago, FalconFanSince1969 said:

I've never once said 'never qb'. I am solidly in the camp of if you're taking a qb at 4 you better be trading ryan and trading him this year. You don't sit a top 5 pick on the bench. You just dont. If TF thinks that Fields or Wilson is the man I'm totally ok with it....as long as they trade Ryan and get some ammo to actually build a team with because a rookie QB with this same defense and running game will fare no better than ryan or anybody else.

Bingo.

I'm in the same boat.  If they take a QB, sobeit.  I don't agree with it, especially at 4, especially considering the options but I see why they would want to.  New regime.  New coach.  Top 5 pick.  But the other hive just refuses to acknowledge the logistics and reality of the pick coupled with Matt's contract, and how they work against eachother just don't make a whole lot of sense.  This also doesn't get into the fact that pick could go to an area of actual need, QB is not a need.  Not yet.  

I always love the irony in people calling out others for stuff they do.  Ultimate TATF move.

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Yeah, because we'll be in our feeling for years to come when we have to draft or sign another one. Haste makes waste. These guys you all like are avg at the NFL level.

68 more days of this.

Look bro, you guys got it twisted. Nobody thinks a rookies will come in, and automatically take us to a Super Bowl. Matt is making a killing, and right now, it's killing us. If someone is willing to m

2 minutes ago, FalconFanSince1969 said:

So you're going to sit 40 million dollars on the bench long enough to find out if your rook doesn't pan out which could take a few years? How does that make any sense at all? You're putting your rookie 40 million dollars behind in a team around him.

And you're passing on a possible everyday impact player.

Hard pass.

Get talent that'll see the field and help win now

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Just now, MSalmon said:

And you're passing on a possible everyday impact player.

Hard pass.

Get talent that'll see the field and help win now

The Packers look pretty silly for drafting Love last year.  And that wasn't even at 4.  And they are going to look even more silly when they restructure Aaron's contract and he will be there for the next several years therefore wasting the pick on a bench warmer instead of someone that can help them win on a weekly basis...

And btw, there was plenty of Aaron is washed chatter, just like the nonsense that's being spouted here.

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8 minutes ago, FalconFanSince1969 said:

I've never once said 'never qb'. I am solidly in the camp of if you're taking a qb at 4 you better be trading ryan and trading him this year. You don't sit a top 5 pick on the bench. You just dont. If TF thinks that Fields or Wilson is the man I'm totally ok with it....as long as they trade Ryan and get some ammo to actually build a team with because a rookie QB with this same defense and running game will fare no better than ryan or anybody else.

I never stated you were a “never QB” guy. However you stating that you’d be ok with drafting a QB as long as we trade Ryan is thought of nearly universally as a really bad idea. Especially given the amount of dead cap we would be eating.

According to a poll I created at the end of the season the majority of people on these boards would keep Ryan if we drafted a QB. You can have both QBs on the roster without it being an issue. There is a narrative around here that states to the contrary, which is false.  

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Just now, Sidecar Falcon said:

I never stated you were a “never QB” guy. However you stating that you’d be ok with drafting a QB as long as we trade Ryan is thought of nearly universally as a really bad idea. Especially given the amount of dead cap we would be eating.

According to a poll I created at the end of the season the majority of people on these boards would keep Ryan if we drafted a QB. You can have both QBs on the roster without it being an issue. There is a narrative around here that states to the contrary, which is false.  

It's either A. Eat all the cap now on year 1 of the rookies deal while maximizing ryans trade potential versus B. wasting multiple years of a rookie QB contract with Ryan on the books for tons of money and slowing down the rebuilding process.

If we are going QB, rip the dang bandaid off now, get something in return and just accept that this year will be a rebuilding year. There is no having your cake and eating it too. That is just meddling and will lead to a slower rebuild

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12 minutes ago, FalconsIn2012 said:

Agreed...plus, if they draft a QB at 4th and it doesn’t pan out, wouldn’t you rather miss when Ryan is still on the team?  
 

Ryan is a hedge on the bet/gamble if they draft QB early.  Seems like a smart way to try and transition

To me, I see Ryan as a valuable, yet diminishing asset. Releasing/trading him now would only hurt this team. If we draft a QB at 4, it’ll be one of the more raw prospects. Throwing our new asset to the wolves isn’t wise. Especially when we can have Ryan mold him as we build the team up again. Contrary to populate belief we won’t be real SB contenders for at least 2-3 years. 

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2 minutes ago, Sidecar Falcon said:

I never stated you were a “never QB” guy. However you stating that you’d be ok with drafting a QB as long as we trade Ryan is thought of nearly universally as a really bad idea. Especially given the amount of dead cap we would be eating.

According to a poll I created at the end of the season the majority of people on these boards would keep Ryan if we drafted a QB. You can have both QBs on the roster without it being an issue. There is a narrative around here that states to the contrary, which is false.  

This is exactly the problem.  Realistically, Matt is going to be here because of his dead money until 2023.  So you want to have a rookie qb, on a rookie qb contract, sitting for at least 2 years behind Matt until we can realistically move out from his contract and not take on a huge amount of dead cap?  What happens if/when Matt starts killing it again under Smith's scheme which I fully expect to happen?  It may not, but I expect him to.  What do you do then?  Move the other qb for a pick?  You'd be lucky to get much ROI at that point and you are now 3 years into a career and scenario where another impactful player (of which there will be plenty at 4) could have been helping you win games and get to the SB but hasn't because you wanted to draft a QB to hold a clipboard.

And the poll is essentially useless, it really doesn't matter what people on these boards want.

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5 minutes ago, athell said:

The Packers look pretty silly for drafting Love last year.  And that wasn't even at 4.  And they are going to look even more silly when they restructure Aaron's contract and he will be there for the next several years therefore wasting the pick on a bench warmer instead of someone that can help them win on a weekly basis...

And btw, there was plenty of Aaron is washed chatter, just like the nonsense that's being spouted here.

Yup. Funny thing is they could have grabbed a talent as varied as Jonathan Taylor, who would allow them to let Jones walk, or a Winfield Jr., or Patrick queen or Tee Higgjns or a slew of other wrs that would have helped the team

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1 minute ago, Sidecar Falcon said:

To me, I see Ryan as a valuable, yet diminishing asset. Releasing/trading him now would only hurt this team. If we draft a QB at 4, it’ll be one of the more raw prospects. Throwing our new asset to the wolves isn’t wise. Especially when we can have Ryan mold him as we build the team up again. Contrary to populate belief we won’t be real SB contenders for at least 2-3 years. 

Draft a raw prospect at #4? Does that really sound logical?

Truth is with a tight salary cap we should draft an impact player at a position that would cost a ton in FA like edge, cb, maybe even Sewell or even a weapon like Pitts since frankly JJ has had showed far more decline due to injury than Ryan. Or even LB like Parsons since Foye will be a UFa the next year and perhaps Debo does poorly in new system

 

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3 minutes ago, FalconFanSince1969 said:

It's either A. Eat all the cap now on year 1 of the rookies deal while maximizing ryans trade potential versus B. wasting multiple years of a rookie QB contract with Ryan on the books for tons of money and slowing down the rebuilding process.

If we are going QB, rip the dang bandaid off now, get something in return and just accept that this year will be a rebuilding year. There is no having your cake and eating it too. That is just meddling and will lead to a slower rebuild

Sorry but you’re argument is a logical fallacy called false dilemma. There are more options in regards to QBs.

The rebuild is going to take 2-3 years regardless. Dead cap of over 44 million from Ryan’s contract has no return on investment. Having Ryan on the team while grooming a rookie QB is vastly more preferable than wasting money, because there is a return on investment. Ryan has two more years on his contract. It would be wise to either ride it out, or trade him next year at the earliest. I’d prefer to get a return on investment than none. 

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22 minutes ago, Sidecar Falcon said:

Thank you.

You’re correct in your analysis that it’s pretty much the same people. It’s definitely a hive mentality with those  “never QB” people. Any franchise that doesn’t at least consider selecting a QB (with a current 35 year old QB and a top 5 pick) deserves to continue to lose.

That being said; every pundit, coach, scout, and GM has completed whiffed on a selection before. NFL GMs with more hits than misses are rare. So to completely write off an evaluation because “x” pundit said that “y” player was going to be good is just 
 

Hypothetically if our new GM missed on out 1st round pick but nailed 2-4; I’d be fine with it. We should be judging more on our hits than misses, and the percentages by which they hit. 

With 500ish posts, I'm not part of the hive nor the spats, but I still think its stupid to look at qb cap hit of 23% and 41mil and think I make that better by adding another 8mil at qb.

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3 minutes ago, MSalmon said:

Yup. Funny thing is they could have grabbed a talent as varied as Jonathan Taylor, who would allow them to let Jones walk, or a Winfield Jr., or Patrick queen or Tee Higgjns or a slew of other wrs that would have helped the team

But instead Aaron Rodgers who could’ve ran it in for the td threw a grounder …also couldn’t put up tds after he told his Defense to “Stop them” (Which they did) see what I did there 

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Just now, Sidecar Falcon said:

Sorry but you’re argument is a logical fallacy called false dilemma. There are more options in regards to QBs.

The rebuild is going to take 2-3 years regardless. Dead cap of over 44 million from Ryan’s contract has no return on investment. Having Ryan on the team while grooming a rookie QB is vastly more preferable than wasting money, because there is a return on investment. Ryan has two more years on his contract. It would be wise to either ride it out, or trade him next year at the earliest. I’d prefer to get a return on investment than none. 

Says you, rando internet guy who puts stock in message board polls.

You are arguing from your own logical fallacy called false dilemma.  Your entire premise is based on your own personal opinion.

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1 minute ago, Macknsweetjones said:

But instead Aaron Rodgers who could’ve ran it in for the td threw a grounder …also couldn’t put up tds after he told his Defense to “Stop them” (Which they did) see what I did there 

Sure. I see. Thanks for the thought experiment, I think

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3 minutes ago, MSalmon said:

Draft a raw prospect at #4? Does that really sound logical?

Truth is with a tight salary cap we should draft an impact player at a position that would cost a ton in FA like edge, cb, maybe even Sewell or even a weapon like Pitts since frankly JJ has had showed far more decline due to injury than Ryan. Or even LB like Parsons since Foye will be a UFa the next year and perhaps Debo does poorly in new system

 

These guys wanna add these numbers to our cap...the same cap they complain we don't have...for a guy who won't play for potentially 3 years.  Yet WE are the illogical ones.

TATF'D

YEAR   AGE BASE SALARY SIGNING ROSTER CAP HIT DEAD CAP YEARLY CASH  
2020 Contract details by year 22 $610,000 $4,894,625 - $5,504,625 $30,275,438 $20,188,500($20,188,500)  
2021 Contract details by year 23 $780,000 $4,894,625 $1,206,156 $6,880,781 $24,770,813 $1,986,156($22,174,656)  
2022 Contract details by year 24 $895,000 $4,894,625 $2,467,313 $8,256,938 $17,890,032 $3,362,313($25,536,969)  
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23 hours ago, Faithful Falcon said:

Look bro, you guys got it twisted. Nobody thinks a rookies will come in, and automatically take us to a Super Bowl. Matt is making a killing, and right now, it's killing us. If someone is willing to make a trade for him and Julio, we would be stupid not to do it. It takes a lot more than bad play calling to make you finish 4-12, and to have 3 straight losing seasons.

Yes, a crappy defense will often lead to bad seasons, just ask the Falcons; bad defense has plagued them for years.

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4 minutes ago, Sidecar Falcon said:

Sorry but you’re argument is a logical fallacy called false dilemma. There are more options in regards to QBs.

The rebuild is going to take 2-3 years regardless. Dead cap of over 44 million from Ryan’s contract has no return on investment. Having Ryan on the team while grooming a rookie QB is vastly more preferable than wasting money, because there is a return on investment. Ryan has two more years on his contract. It would be wise to either ride it out, or trade him next year at the earliest. I’d prefer to get a return on investment than none. 

What exactly do you think a rookie QB learns while sitting? You learn by playing. Having a 40 million dollar 'groomer' is just ridiculous and wasting the rookies time, Ryans time, the coaches time, everybodys time. It's the NFL. There are not years to waste. Grooming is a coaches job, not Ryans.

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Just now, athell said:

These guys wanna add these numbers to our cap...the same cap they complain we don't have...for a guy who won't play for potentially 3 years.  Yet WE are the illogical ones.

TATF'D

YEAR   AGE BASE SALARY SIGNING ROSTER CAP HIT DEAD CAP YEARLY CASH  
2020 Contract details by year 22 $610,000 $4,894,625 - $5,504,625 $30,275,438 $20,188,500($20,188,500)  
2021 Contract details by year 23 $780,000 $4,894,625 $1,206,156 $6,880,781 $24,770,813 $1,986,156($22,174,656)  
2022 Contract details by year 24 $895,000 $4,894,625 $2,467,313 $8,256,938 $17,890,032 $3,362,313($25,536,969)  

Ouch. That’s a great piece of evidence....yeah, that’s the issue. You draft a QBs that high, you commit. 
 

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Just now, FalconFanSince1969 said:

What exactly do you think a rookie QB learns while sitting? You learn by playing. Having a 40 million dollar 'groomer' is just ridiculous and wasting the rookies time, Ryans time, the coaches time, everybodys time. It's the NFL. There are not years to waste. Grooming is a coaches job, not Ryans.

Exact;y

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5 minutes ago, athell said:

This is exactly the problem.  Realistically, Matt is going to be here because of his dead money until 2023.  So you want to have a rookie qb, on a rookie qb contract, sitting for at least 2 years behind Matt until we can realistically move out from his contract and not take on a huge amount of dead cap?  What happens if/when Matt starts killing it again under Smith's scheme which I fully expect to happen?  It may not, but I expect him to.  What do you do then?  Move the other qb for a pick?  You'd be lucky to get much ROI at that point and you are now 3 years into a career and scenario where another impactful player (of which there will be plenty at 4) could have been helping you win games and get to the SB but hasn't because you wanted to draft a QB to hold a clipboard.

And the poll is essentially useless, it really doesn't matter what people on these boards want.

Whether Ryan is “killing it” or not, he’s still 35 years old. There seems to be this contingent of people who believe he can play until he’s 40. Based on the physical regression I’ve seen with him in past few years, doesn’t provide me much confidence they he’ll make it that far.

What Ryan does have going for him is his football acumen and the knowledge he can teach other QB. This is something we should take advantage of. Most of the QB prospects coming out of the draft are raw. They are however physically gifted. I’d rather have them sit a season or two and learn from Ryan than throwing them to the wolves. Between Ryan’s teaching and their inherent athletic ability, we should see very minimal (if any) drop off in production when they do take. In fact, we may even see an increase.

The poll showed that the vast majority of people wanted to keep both. It wasn’t a “Ryan hater” vs “Ryan hugger” debate, but you can see how some opinions didn’t shift. 

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4 minutes ago, athell said:

These guys wanna add these numbers to our cap...the same cap they complain we don't have...for a guy who won't play for potentially 3 years.  Yet WE are the illogical ones.

TATF'D

YEAR   AGE BASE SALARY SIGNING ROSTER CAP HIT DEAD CAP YEARLY CASH  
2020 Contract details by year 22 $610,000 $4,894,625 - $5,504,625 $30,275,438 $20,188,500($20,188,500)  
2021 Contract details by year 23 $780,000 $4,894,625 $1,206,156 $6,880,781 $24,770,813 $1,986,156($22,174,656)  
2022 Contract details by year 24 $895,000 $4,894,625 $2,467,313 $8,256,938 $17,890,032 $3,362,313($25,536,969)  

Never once seen them try to explain the logic in this..

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2 minutes ago, Sidecar Falcon said:

Whether Ryan is “killing it” or not, he’s still 35 years old. There seems to be this contingent of people who believe he can play until he’s 40. Based on the physical regression I’ve seen with him in past few years, doesn’t provide me much confidence they he’ll make it that far.

What Ryan does have going for him is his football acumen and the knowledge he can teach other QB. This is something we should take advantage of. Most of the QB prospects coming out of the draft are raw. They are however physically gifted. I’d rather have them sit a season or two and learn from Ryan than throwing them to the wolves. Between Ryan’s teaching and their inherent athletic ability, we should see very minimal (if any) drop off in production when they do take. In fact, we may even see an increase.

The poll showed that the vast majority of people wanted to keep both. It wasn’t a “Ryan hater” vs “Ryan hugger” debate, but you can see how some opinions didn’t shift. 

So you want to keep Ryan around as a 40m teacher?

While eating an additional ~20m in cap over the years on the bench for the rook?

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8 minutes ago, Williamb said:

With 500ish posts, I'm not part of the hive nor the spats, but I still think its stupid to look at qb cap hit of 23% and 41mil and think I make that better by adding another 8mil at qb.

You won’t make it better in the short term, nothing will. You’re looking into the future, and focusing on the long term. Only an idiot thinks in a limited capacity. 

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5 minutes ago, FalconFanSince1969 said:

What exactly do you think a rookie QB learns while sitting? You learn by playing. Having a 40 million dollar 'groomer' is just ridiculous and wasting the rookies time, Ryans time, the coaches time, everybodys time. It's the NFL. There are not years to waste. Grooming is a coaches job, not Ryans.

You may think it’s just the coaches job but that’s inaccurate, it takes a villages. To believe that another player wouldn’t/shouldn’t help a rookie player is an asinine statement. A rookie QB can learn a lot by sitting and learning the playbook and asking question of current players. Since Ryan is able to diagnose plays at an NFL level he can pass some of that knowledge off to him. 

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1 minute ago, Sidecar Falcon said:

You won’t make it better in the short term, nothing will. You’re looking into the future, and focusing on the long term. Only an idiot thinks in a limited capacity. 

This is another area where you are just wrong.  We saw the impact competent coaching had on the same roster.  We saw Dirk bottom out an offense Shanny had riding high.  We saw Morris and Ulbrich bring a defense that was 28th in DVOA after week 4 to 8th prior to week 17.  Coaching matters.  I don't know if this is a foreign concept because you kept stats instead of playing, but it absolutely matters and will absolutely make a huge difference in the short term especially on the offensive side of the ball with guys like Matt.

You honestly look at what Smith turned Tanny into and think he couldn't do that and more with Matt?  Only an idiot would be that limited in their mental capacity.

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