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2 minutes ago, ya_boi_j said:

interesting. Now it's a wonder of do you pair Terrell with a veteran outside or keep working with Sheff and Oli. Patrick Peterson is about to be free. Honestly i don't want him but just throwing that name out there because you know it's coming. 

But I agree. The talent already on roster may be enough to work with. 

What's Rocky doing these day? I miss him around here, even with all the holding. 😄

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Secondary may not be as troublesome as it seemed. TB just won with a secondary ranked towards the bottom.  The first question is what scheme will be ran. Last i know he was a 3-4 guy that ran a t

I know we’ve got needs in our secondary but IMHO this has been the biggest problem on this team.  We’ve got Grady and a bunch of scrubs.     We don’t have the money to grab anyone to help him i

Do you really need one though? Years ago that may have been the case but I wouldn't think it's a true necessity these days. If so, one can definitely be found via the draft and FA

4 minutes ago, thanat0s said:

Very true. So, to shift a little to that sort of second level defender, what do you guys think of Chazz Surratt? He's very raw, being a converted QB, but I look at that film, and he's all over the place. 


I'd also note a guy like Ronnie Perkins might fit in that scheme as well. 

We might also prioritize interior line, and those guys can often be found later in the 1st and in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.

I don't think we can expect to strike gold a'la Grady Jarrett, but you can get quality interior linemen later than top 4.  So we might improve the pass rush with a combination of inside-out drafting, getting OLB type guys (or versatile linebackers like Parsons), and scheme.  I know last season once Quinn was fired we blitzed a lot more and had success with it.

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15 minutes ago, Francis York Morgan said:

You can do it both ways. Judging off Pees past stops though, he tends to run a much more complex look up front and very simple looks (albeit with disguise) in the back. He likes to blitz from all over and stunt up front, relying more on intelligence on the DL than sheer talent. Because of all of this, I do feel like we could be better with an average front 4 and great secondary than with a great front 4 and average secondary...but it really depends on how they evaluate the team's existing talent. And dude is flexible, so it might be completely different.

He definitely isn't a strict 3-4/4-3 guy though. Lots of nickel but that's everyone in the NFL. His philosophy might be a bit more important when looking at him, and that's what makes me think he'll prioritize the secondary and linebackers (already got talented LBs thankfully)

Excellent post.  So how would you feel about taking Surtain at 4?  Seems to be the best CB right now.

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13 minutes ago, ya_boi_j said:

interesting. Now it's a wonder of do you pair Terrell with a veteran outside or keep working with Sheff and Oli. Patrick Peterson is about to be free. Honestly i don't want him but just throwing that name out there because you know it's coming. 

But I agree. The talent already on roster may be enough to work with. 

Oh, I definitely think he'll want more in the secondary. We'll probably have a completely different safety group than we had last year. I'm just thinking about what he values, which again - might be totally different depending what's available in the draft this year. Looking at how strong the FA group is at safety this year compared to what's there for DE...and how much cap space we have (top safeties are way less pricy than a top DE)...it all points to that, at least imho. It'll be a fun offseason, I'm excited to see how they handle it

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1 minute ago, Godzilla1985 said:

Excellent post.  So how would you feel about taking Surtain at 4?  Seems to be the best CB right now.

I LOVE Surtain. Definitely higher on him than most, to the point where he's actually the #2 player on my big board behind Sewell (I know that won't be a popular opinion). So I'd be really into it. He's going to come in and be a really good CB immediately with the potential to be an All-Pro imho.

But hey, a lot of these things are scheme dependent too. Just look at Okudah - I don't think he's a bad player, despite how he's looked early in Detroit, but he certainly looks awful. If they're trying to play Surtain strictly as an off man corner, he'd probably struggle, at least early on. He disrupts routes, he's intelligent and instinctual in zones, he takes his chances and QBs hate to look his way (at least in college). Pair him with Terrell and you have guys that can both follow different types of players around, can both blitz, both are guys who'll take chances when it makes sense and flip the field for you.

I feel like it could be reminiscent of Denver's CBs in 2015, that Aqib Talib and Chris Harris tandem. People like to think that Denver defense was good just because of its DL, but nah, they only had one guy with double digit sacks (Von Miller with 11) and the next highest guy had 7.5 (Ware). Miller was the only big name on that DL when you consider Ware was older. Everyone else was either an unknown or a nobody. That team was built on its secondary and LBs.

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1 hour ago, Godzilla1985 said:

I know Rousseau has been mocked a couple of times but I’m not keen on getting a guy that didn’t play this past year (not that I blame him).  People aren’t too high on  Payne here either.

I think you’re 100% where I am.  Need to get a Sleeper in the 2nd or 3rd. 

Trade for this guy.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Francis York Morgan said:

I LOVE Surtain. Definitely higher on him than most, to the point where he's actually the #2 player on my big board behind Sewell (I know that won't be a popular opinion). So I'd be really into it. He's going to come in and be a really good CB immediately with the potential to be an All-Pro imho.

But hey, a lot of these things are scheme dependent too. Just look at Okudah - I don't think he's a bad player, despite how he's looked early in Detroit, but he certainly looks awful. If they're trying to play Surtain strictly as an off man corner, he'd probably struggle, at least early on. He disrupts routes, he's intelligent and instinctual in zones, he takes his chances and QBs hate to look his way (at least in college). Pair him with Terrell and you have guys that can both follow different types of players around, can both blitz, both are guys who'll take chances when it makes sense and flip the field for you.

I feel like it could be reminiscent of Denver's CBs in 2015, that Aqib Talib and Chris Harris tandem. People like to think that Denver defense was good just because of its DL, but nah, they only had one guy with double digit sacks (Von Miller with 11) and the next highest guy had 7.5 (Ware). Miller was the only big name on that DL when you consider Ware was older. Everyone else was either an unknown or a nobody. That team was built on its secondary and LBs.

Just want to point out one thing about Okudah. He played through injury all season and ultimately went on IR. So i wouldn't necessarily say he looked awful. 

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16 minutes ago, Francis York Morgan said:

Oh, I definitely think he'll want more in the secondary. We'll probably have a completely different safety group than we had last year. I'm just thinking about what he values, which again - might be totally different depending what's available in the draft this year. Looking at how strong the FA group is at safety this year compared to what's there for DE...and how much cap space we have (top safeties are way less pricy than a top DE)...it all points to that, at least imho. It'll be a fun offseason, I'm excited to see how they handle it

I don't think we re-sign Neal due to him not being a good cover 2 safety. Whats your thoughts? A lot of people think we want to re-sign him.

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8 minutes ago, Francis York Morgan said:

I LOVE Surtain. Definitely higher on him than most, to the point where he's actually the #2 player on my big board behind Sewell (I know that won't be a popular opinion). So I'd be really into it. He's going to come in and be a really good CB immediately with the potential to be an All-Pro imho.

But hey, a lot of these things are scheme dependent too. Just look at Okudah - I don't think he's a bad player, despite how he's looked early in Detroit, but he certainly looks awful. If they're trying to play Surtain strictly as an off man corner, he'd probably struggle, at least early on. He disrupts routes, he's intelligent and instinctual in zones, he takes his chances and QBs hate to look his way (at least in college). Pair him with Terrell and you have guys that can both follow different types of players around, can both blitz, both are guys who'll take chances when it makes sense and flip the field for you.

I feel like it could be reminiscent of Denver's CBs in 2015, that Aqib Talib and Chris Harris tandem. People like to think that Denver defense was good just because of its DL, but nah, they only had one guy with double digit sacks (Von Miller with 11) and the next highest guy had 7.5 (Ware). Miller was the only big name on that DL when you consider Ware was older. Everyone else was either an unknown or a nobody. That team was built on its secondary and LBs.

I like what I have seen out of Surtain. How do you feel about the people saying they are worried about his speed. A lot think he could be exposed over the top or that quick twitchy wr could get open quick over the middle. I don't know enough to answer those concerns.

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56 minutes ago, FalconFanSince1970 said:

I’d try to draft either McNeill or Wilson at DT. Maybe Rousseau or Basham at DE. We need to try to trade down and add some picks to pull this off.

I watched some Basham last week and thought he was completely forgettable. I didn't see anything. 

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12 minutes ago, xSICKxWITHxITx said:

I like what I have seen out of Surtain. How do you feel about the people saying they are worried about his speed. A lot think he could be exposed over the top or that quick twitchy wr could get open quick over the middle. I don't know enough to answer those concerns.

Unless he runs a 4.6 or 4.7, he'll be plenty fast enough.  He might not be able to man up bump and run on super fast WRs, but he will be able to use his instincts, football intelligence and good angles to compensate for that.

Most corners don't run a 4.3.

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2 hours ago, Godzilla1985 said:

It sounds like Pees has said he is going to be flexible and the scheme will be dictated by the personnel and situations in game.  I don’t feel we have a true monster that can be a NT to run a 3-4 effectively. 

They don't have a monster anywhere..

It is a bad draft for immediate impact on defense.

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15 minutes ago, ya_boi_j said:

Just want to point out one thing about Okudah. He played through injury all season and ultimately went on IR. So i wouldn't necessarily say he looked awful. 

That's true too. I think he'll look worlds different this year, both because it's a new staff (and I think they'll look at where he excels and try to play to those strengths) and being healthy.

13 minutes ago, xSICKxWITHxITx said:

I don't think we re-sign Neal due to him not being a good cover 2 safety. Whats your thoughts? A lot of people think we want to re-sign him.

I think it depends entirely on what Pees wants to do. He doesn't seem overly attached to a specific coverage. But I think it's more likely Quinn brings him to Dallas.

11 minutes ago, xSICKxWITHxITx said:

I like what I have seen out of Surtain. How do you feel about the people saying they are worried about his speed. A lot think he could be exposed over the top or that quick twitchy wr could get open quick over the middle. I don't know enough to answer those concerns.

I think a lot of the speed concerns are completely overblown. Twitter in particular gets into an echo chamber about what they've seen from 2019 games, and I frankly don't think a lot of the guys who knock Surtain know what they're looking at. Don't get me wrong, he's not a perfect prospect. But **** close. He closes well, he can turn and run when he has to, and people just get stuck on in-breaking routes when they're an awful metric for evaluating CBs since they require CBs to commit so hard and turn/run immediately (they're often man beaters, crazy risky in zone).

Also, Surtain was a track star in high school. Ran 10.7-10.9 100m. He's going to run close to 4.4 and people are going to act like that makes him a different player somehow. Nah. Just noise.

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1 minute ago, Francis York Morgan said:

That's true too. I think he'll look worlds different this year, both because it's a new staff (and I think they'll look at where he excels and try to play to those strengths) and being healthy.

I think it depends entirely on what Pees wants to do. He doesn't seem overly attached to a specific coverage. But I think it's more likely Quinn brings him to Dallas.

I think a lot of the speed concerns are completely overblown. Twitter in particular gets into an echo chamber about what they've seen from 2019 games, and I frankly don't think a lot of the guys who knock Surtain know what they're looking at. Don't get me wrong, he's not a perfect prospect. But **** close. He closes well, he can turn and run when he has to, and people just get stuck on in-breaking routes when they're an awful metric for evaluating CBs since they require CBs to commit so hard and turn/run immediately (they're often man beaters, crazy risky in zone).

Also, Surtain was a track star in high school. Ran 10.7-10.9 100m. He's going to run close to 4.4 and people are going to act like that makes him a different player somehow. Nah. Just noise.

I respect players who play through injury. I wouldn't risk it but I respect those who do. Some cases I think it's not worth but it's their call

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1 hour ago, thanat0s said:

Agreed. There is a bit of a higher risk/reward factor there, but I have no doubts that Pees would see him as a potential game wrecker along that DL. 

 

1 hour ago, ya_boi_j said:

He can be developed into a phenomenal pass rusher, especially if you use him the way TJ Watt is used, as i mentioned about Fowler earlier. 

Conversation isn't only about interior. He can play traditional DE or stand up 

Exactly. I think he can actually develop to excel in a couple of different roles depending on the coaching. He has a unique build and is still raw but the athletic tools are there in spades. 

Moving down to about 10 or so, picking up a couple extra top 100 picks and getting Rousseau could be fantastic. 

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45 minutes ago, kiwifalcon said:

Trade for this guy.

 

 

Lots to like with this big, stout cat.  Strength, quickness, awareness, motor, penetration, batting balls etc. Just don't know if we could afford the guy.  Sure would love to see him lined up next to Jarrett the beast.

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3 minutes ago, HASHBROWN3 said:

Lots to like with this big, stout cat.  Strength, quickness, awareness, motor, penetration, batting balls etc. Just don't know if we could afford the guy.  Sure would love to see him lined up next to Jarrett the beast.

There's quite a few jokes in this post to attack. Thankfully we're having grown up conversation today

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27 minutes ago, JDaveG said:
41 minutes ago, xSICKxWITHxITx said:

I like what I have seen out of Surtain. How do you feel about the people saying they are worried about his speed. A lot think he could be exposed over the top or that quick twitchy wr could get open quick over the middle. I don't know enough to answer those concerns.

Unless he runs a 4.6 or 4.7, he'll be plenty fast enough.  He might not be able to man up bump and run on super fast WRs, but he will be able to use his instincts, football intelligence and good angles to compensate for that.

Most corners don't run a 4.3.

Yeah, you're both right here.  He's been difficult to figure out for me  for all of these reasons.  Plus he's playing DB on a Bama team too.  But there is lots to like.  I love his size/strength & the way he uses it to his advantage battling wideouts.  But the scouting reports all have their precautions on his COD/Twitch & he has allowed people to get behind him a number of occasions.  KOG likes him a lot & I think he has more eyes on him for a longer period than any of us too, so that is encouraging.  For me however, I don't like him too early due to the reasons stated.  But if we drop back down to the 12-20 range, I would feel much more comfortable taking PS.  

Most all of the scouting reports are some conglomeration of the following:

Strengths:

  • Excellent height
  • Superb length
  • Good weight, strength
  • Straight-line speed
  • Size to match up against big receivers
  • Instinctive
  • Plays the ball well in air
  • Good ball skills
  • Soft hands to intercept passes
  • Threat to take the ball away
  • Good tackler
  • Physical
  • Does a good job of preventing separation

     
Weaknesses:
  • Outside corner only
  • Lacks twitch
  • Has change of directions problems
  • Straight line athletically
  • Can be late getting his head around to track ball in flight
  • Not a good fit in off man coverage


     
  • Summary: Patrick Surtain II had no issues living up to the large expectations he brought to Alabama. Being the son of a Pro Bowl cornerback who played for over a decade in the NFL with the Dolphins and Chiefs, Surtain saw the field as a freshman. Alabama consistently features a loaded secondary, so it can be hard for young players to see the field. Surtain, however, was the exception, as the star recruit got a lot of playing time for a freshman under Nick Saban. Surtain played well in 2018, recording 28 tackles with an interception, seven passes defended and one forced fumble. He looked like he was just scratching the surface of his potential. As a sophomore in 2019, Surtain had 42 tackles with two interceptions, three forced fumbles and eight passes broken up in 2019.

    Surtain played well in 2020 and was a steady cover corner for Alabama. He was the team's No. 1 corner and did a good job of limiting top receivers on the opposition. Against Mississippi State, he had four tackles, two breakups, and a short pick-six in garbage time. He turned in a solid game against Georgia. Surtain made some good breakups against Tennessee, but he was also beaten for a touchdown from about 30 yards out. Taking on Florida, Surtain collected two passes broken up and three tackles, but he was also burned by Trevon Grimes on a 50-yard touchdown. Surtain played well in the college football playoff to help Alabama beat Notre Dame and Ohio State en route to winning another National Championship. Surtain totaled 38 tackles, 11 passes broken up and a pick-six in 2020.

    There is a lot to like about Surtain for the NFL, as he looks like he could be a quality starter quickly as a pro, especially if he is drafted into a system that plays a lot of press man. Surtain has excellent size, with height and length that make it very difficult to get passes around him. Along with height and length, Surtain has developed strength to fight off receivers and maintain good positioning for contested passes. Surtain's height and length also helps him to have nice recoverability to narrow the space and close the window for completing passes.

     
    As a corner, Surtain has good feel, instincts, and advanced technique. He plays the ball really well, showing impressive ball skills for a big corner. When Surtain is in close coverage, it can be a dangerous proposition to throw his direction. as he is very capable of getting his hands on the ball to snatch it away or deflect it away from the receiver.

    The big question with all large cornerbacks is how well they run. and Surtain has the speed necessary to play in the NFL. He is fast in the straight line yet is able to turn and run with receivers. While Surtain is not a blazer, he has enough quickness to run down the sideline and keep receivers from burning him over the top. He won't be one of the fastest corners in the NFL, but his speed won't make him a liability.

    There are some limitations for Surtain in the NFL, and his pro defensive coordinator would be wise to not match him up against smaller speed receivers. Surtain is not a twitchy corner and has some change-of-direction problems. Thus, he is better suited to line up on the outside against big receivers and not a fit to move inside to the slot. Being an outside-only corner is not the end of the world, but it cuts down on Surtain's versatility for his pro defense. His lack of twitch and his change-of-direction issues are common with big corners, and that makes him a better fit for playing press-man corner. He is not a good fit to play off-man coverage against NFL receivers.

    After a little time adjusting to the NFL, Surtain should be off and running as a starter. He has the potential to be a good pro.
     
    Player Comparison: Carlton Davis. There are a lot of similarities between Davis and Surtain. Davis (6-1, 206) is almost identical in size and has some of the same strengths and limitations as Surtain. Both of them are big corners with instincts, ball skills, and a physical style of play. They also can have issues with twitchy speed receivers.
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11 minutes ago, HASHBROWN3 said:

Lots to like with this big, stout cat.  Strength, quickness, awareness, motor, penetration, batting balls etc. Just don't know if we could afford the guy.  Sure would love to see him lined up next to Jarrett the beast.

Well, if he could be had for a 2nd, and he doesn’t need a new deal until 2022 and beyond ( no clue on his status), he’d fit nicely. Next offseason our cap situation should be improved. 

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