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Why Taking a QB at #4 Won’t...and Shouldn’t...Happen


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On 3/6/2021 at 3:17 PM, AUTiger7222 said:

Yep. Blows my mind that a guy who will finish his NFL career top 10 all-time in yards and touchdown passes when he hangs it up and has one of the best individual playoff stat lines of all-time is such a bum.

See, it’s easier to rack up yards in today’s NFL. Why, anyone can do it. 

Where the argument falls apart, of course, is in explaining why everyone isn’t doing it. 

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On 3/22/2021 at 11:27 PM, vanhino said:

I refuted everything you said so there is nothing more for you to say.

Your "refutation" of what I said about MR having elite years few and far between your response was he was elite just a couple of years ago. While it is true, he has been "elite" for maybe 2 years out of his whole career. Having one, or even a couple for a career that is over a decade closing on a decade and a half doesn't make anyone "elite".  Plus who cares if he was elite years ago. How about now? The obvious answer is no.

 

"elite" year doesn't make someone an elite QB. If that was the case, Cam Newton is elite. I clearly was talking about the proportion of Ryan's career which you clearly ignored. And when you claim you refuted me, when you didn't address what I said, that is a strawman.

 

Anyway, that is just an example. You didn't respond to me about anything about proportionality. So why bother?

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22 hours ago, Intellectually Honest said:

Your "refutation" of what I said about MR having elite years few and far between your response was he was elite just a couple of years ago. While it is true, he has been "elite" for maybe 2 years out of his whole career. Having one, or even a couple for a career that is over a decade closing on a decade and a half doesn't make anyone "elite".  Plus who cares if he was elite years ago. How about now? The obvious answer is no.

 

"elite" year doesn't make someone an elite QB. If that was the case, Cam Newton is elite. I clearly was talking about the proportion of Ryan's career which you clearly ignored. And when you claim you refuted me, when you didn't address what I said, that is a strawman.

 

Anyway, that is just an example. You didn't respond to me about anything about proportionality. So why bother?

You stated that Ryan's elite years were few and far between and I refuted that statement by proving that Ryan had elite years back to back, thereby rendering your statement false. Don't make statements that you can't back up with facts.

Ryan had back to back elite years in 2016 and 2017. He signed a contract extension in May 2018. The Falcons signed him to this extension based on his past performance, specifically for those 2 years. Most organizations give employees raises based on great to elite past performances.

You made the ridiculous notion that the Falcons should have traded Ryan and still haven't answered my question. I hope that you understand that SOMEONE would have to be starting QB if Ryan was traded. Specifically, who would you have as starting QB for the Falcons?

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42 minutes ago, vanhino said:

You stated that Ryan's elite years were few and far between and I refuted that statement by proving that Ryan had elite years back to back, thereby rendering your statement false. Don't make statements that you can't back up with facts.

Ryan had back to back elite years in 2016 and 2017. He signed a contract extension in May 2018. The Falcons signed him to this extension based on his past performance, specifically for those 2 years. Most organizations give employees raises based on great to elite past performances.

You made the ridiculous notion that the Falcons should have traded Ryan and still haven't answered my question. I hope that you understand that SOMEONE would have to be starting QB if Ryan was traded. Specifically, who would you have as starting QB for the Falcons?

And in 2018 posted season stats that were nearly identical to his 2016 season stats in a far worse situation.

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6 hours ago, vanhino said:

You stated that Ryan's elite years were few and far between and I refuted that statement by proving that Ryan had elite years back to back, thereby rendering your statement false. Don't make statements that you can't back up with facts.

Ryan had back to back elite years in 2016 and 2017. He signed a contract extension in May 2018. The Falcons signed him to this extension based on his past performance, specifically for those 2 years. Most organizations give employees raises based on great to elite past performances.

You made the ridiculous notion that the Falcons should have traded Ryan and still haven't answered my question. I hope that you understand that SOMEONE would have to be starting QB if Ryan was traded. Specifically, who would you have as starting QB for the Falcons?

"You stated that Ryan's elite years were few and far between and I refuted that statement by proving that Ryan had elite years back to back, thereby rendering your statement false. Don't make statements that you can't back up with facts."

2020
65.0
4,581
26
11
93.3
 
2019
66.2
4,466
26
14
92.1
 
2018
69.4
4,924
35
7
108.1
 
2017
64.7
4,095
20
12
91.4
 
2016
69.9
4,944
38
7
117.1
 
2015
66.3
4,591
21
16
89.0
 
2014
66.1
4,694
28
14
93.9
 
2013
67.4
4,515
26
17
89.6
 
2012
68.6
4,719
32
14
99.1
 
2011
61.3
4,177
29
12
92.2
 
2010
62.5
3,705
28
9
91.0
 
2009
58.3
2,916
22
14
80.9
 
2008
61.1
3,440
16
11
87.7
 
Career
 
65.4
55,767
347
158
94.5

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

 

A straw man (sometimes written as strawman) is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the proper idea of the argument under discussion was not addressed or properly refuted.[1] One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".

The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and the subsequent refutation of that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the opponent's proposition.[2][3] Straw man arguments have been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly regarding highly charged emotional subjects.

 

His 2 elite years was 2016 and 2018. That is not back to back. So factually you are wrong anyway. You are too dishonest. You are also making this an issue of pride. You would rather make this conversation into a tit for tat than being genuine and civil.

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15 hours ago, Intellectually Honest said:

"You stated that Ryan's elite years were few and far between and I refuted that statement by proving that Ryan had elite years back to back, thereby rendering your statement false. Don't make statements that you can't back up with facts."

2020
65.0
4,581
26
11
93.3
 
2019
66.2
4,466
26
14
92.1
 
2018
69.4
4,924
35
7
108.1
 
2017
64.7
4,095
20
12
91.4
 
2016
69.9
4,944
38
7
117.1
 
2015
66.3
4,591
21
16
89.0
 
2014
66.1
4,694
28
14
93.9
 
2013
67.4
4,515
26
17
89.6
 
2012
68.6
4,719
32
14
99.1
 
2011
61.3
4,177
29
12
92.2
 
2010
62.5
3,705
28
9
91.0
 
2009
58.3
2,916
22
14
80.9
 
2008
61.1
3,440
16
11
87.7
 
Career
 
65.4
55,767
347
158
94.5

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

 

A straw man (sometimes written as strawman) is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the proper idea of the argument under discussion was not addressed or properly refuted.[1] One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".

The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and the subsequent refutation of that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the opponent's proposition.[2][3] Straw man arguments have been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly regarding highly charged emotional subjects.

 

His 2 elite years was 2016 and 2018. That is not back to back. So factually you are wrong anyway. You are too dishonest. You are also making this an issue of pride. You would rather make this conversation into a tit for tat than being genuine and civil.

2. MATT RYAN, ATLANTA FALCONS  89.8 OVERALL GRADE

Slide32.jpg

Excerpt from the PFF QB Annual: Ryan’s 89.8 overall grade is just 2.8 points down from last year’s mark and actually higher than the three previous seasons before that. After a slow first month of the season, Ryan definitely found his groove in 2017 and went through the rest of the year on something of a tear, with the only hiccup coming against the Saints the first time the two teams played.

 

Ryan was the #2 rated QB in 2017, so he actually had elite years back to back to back (2016, 2017, and 2018). It completely refutes your statement that his elite years are few and far between. It is not a strawman argument no matter how you wish to frame it.

It took you 8 paragraphs to finally answer my first question to you, but at least you answered it. I asked a second question to you, and up to this point, you have written 7 paragraphs without answering it. Maybe you pride yourself in regards to being evasive to questions that are asked to you. Oh well.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, vanhino said:

2. MATT RYAN, ATLANTA FALCONS  89.8 OVERALL GRADE

Slide32.jpg

Excerpt from the PFF QB Annual: Ryan’s 89.8 overall grade is just 2.8 points down from last year’s mark and actually higher than the three previous seasons before that. After a slow first month of the season, Ryan definitely found his groove in 2017 and went through the rest of the year on something of a tear, with the only hiccup coming against the Saints the first time the two teams played.

 

Ryan was the #2 rated QB in 2017, so he actually had elite years back to back to back (2016, 2017, and 2018). It completely refutes your statement that his elite years are few and far between. It is not a strawman argument no matter how you wish to frame it.

It took you 8 paragraphs to finally answer my first question to you, but at least you answered it. I asked a second question to you, and up to this point, you have written 7 paragraphs without answering it. Maybe you pride yourself in regards to being evasive to questions that are asked to you. Oh well.

 

 

 

So in other words I am wrong because someone has an opinion that agrees with your opinion. What a masterful refutation.

 

I never realized this was "elite". It was must true because PFF gave him a high grade that year. What genius. You need to join those academic debates. Maybe be a lawyer.

 

So if someone had a 58.8 completion pct 3500 yards 15 tds and 10 ints and a QBr of 75  and PFF gave him a grade of 90, that must be elite. What is the pff grade that a QB needs to get to qualify as "elite"?

 

2017
QNdwQPxtIRYUhnMBYq-bSA_28x21.png
 
 
 
 
 
64.7
4,095
20
12
91.4
 
 
 
 
Edited by Intellectually Honest
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25 minutes ago, Intellectually Honest said:

So in other words I am wrong because someone has an opinion that agrees with your opinion. What a masterful refutation.

 

I never realized this was "elite". It was must true because PFF gave him a high grade that year. What genius. You need to join those academic debates. Maybe be a lawyer.

 

2017
QNdwQPxtIRYUhnMBYq-bSA_28x21.png
 
 
 
64.7
4,095
20
12
91.4
 
 
 
 

He can join academic debates while you continue to talk like such a smart guy on the internet with poor grammar 

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1 hour ago, Intellectually Honest said:

So in other words I am wrong because someone has an opinion that agrees with your opinion. What a masterful refutation.

 

I never realized this was "elite". It was must true because PFF gave him a high grade that year. What genius. You need to join those academic debates. Maybe be a lawyer.

 

So if someone had a 58.8 completion pct 3500 yards 15 tds and 10 ints and a QBr of 75  and PFF gave him a grade of 90, that must be elite. What is the pff grade that a QB needs to get to qualify as "elite"?

 

2017
QNdwQPxtIRYUhnMBYq-bSA_28x21.png
 
 
 
 
 
64.7
4,095
20
12
91.4
 
 
 
 

It's funny to me how triggered you are. Hopefully, you can learn to control it someday.

 

Oh, and you are now up to 10 paragraphs (and counting) without answering my last question to you. Congratulations!

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This thread is always entertaining.  I was firmly on the "don't take a QB at 4" train.  Now, I think I really don't care.  TF is proving to me to be a man of his word.  I am starting to see the bigger picture through their moves and frankly, whatever they do will be a positive move for the team.  

Logically, trading down nets more capital.  And would be the most logical move this season (IMHO).

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Been on the trade down train, but not taking it for granted. If the pick stays at 4 and we take a QB after 2-3 QB’s have gone, then that would be a sad state of affairs.

At 4, believe it’s a must that you’ve gotta come away with the best at some position. Taking the 3rd or 4th best QB at would be a joke.

Please tell me we are not that desperate.

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9 minutes ago, Speezy said:

Been on the trade down train, but not taking it for granted. If the pick stays at 4 and we take a QB after 2-3 QB’s have gone, then that would be a sad state of affairs.

At 4, believe it’s a must that you’ve gotta come away with the best at some position. Taking the 3rd or 4th best QB at would be a joke.

Please tell me we are not that desperate.

I think TF will make the best pick he can to make our team better.  It may not be popular, and it might even make you scratch your head.  But they have a plan, been enacting it sincerely they interviewed, and are doing what they set out to do.

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On 3/25/2021 at 7:12 PM, Intellectually Honest said:

So if I said "Hi, how are you" and forgot to add a question mark, that gives you a giggle. You must be great at parties.

 

On 3/25/2021 at 7:18 PM, Intellectually Honest said:

Yes, you devastated me. I am being rushed to the burn unit. I can't take it anymore.

 

20 hours ago, Intellectually Honest said:

Yes. You guys got me. I am so triggered. I need to go to my safe space.

Nice meltdown

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25 minutes ago, Herr Doktor said:

I think TF will make the best pick he can to make our team better.  It may not be popular, and it might even make you scratch your head.  But they have a plan, been enacting it sincerely they interviewed, and are doing what they set out to do.

Yeah I’m prepared for the unpopular and have no reason not to trust Terry. The suspense is killing me though! Makes it fun 

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