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Why Taking a QB at #4 Won’t...and Shouldn’t...Happen


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6 hours ago, JD dirtybird21 said:

That’s a false narrative that “great QB’s carry their teams.” No they don’t. No QB ever has outside of maybe Peyton for 1 or 2 years in Indy. All QB’s need to be set up for success. Look at Russell Wilson. He’s considered a top 2 QB and his team lost today, at home, to a team who started its backup. That doesn’t mean Wilson blew it. So many things that happen in games are completely out of the QB’s control 

Thanks for contradicting yourself. Then you follow up with "All QB’s need to be set up for success." So thanks for showing evidence for YOU this about Ryan winning the SB, not the team. So the team needs to be set up for Ryan to win a SB. It's not that Ryan needs to improve to help the team win.

 

Last time I checked QBs are part of the team. If the team needs to improve, that includes the QB. You guys see it not as "The Falcons" but Ryan AND the Falcons. Got it.

 

Anyway, I don't even necessarily have a problem with Ryan, but Ryan's contract. He isn't worth what the Falcons are paying him, and that contract is preventing the team to either just maintain what they already have let alone improve. Now it isn't just Ryan's contract, but other bloated contracts that TD decided to overpay some players.

Edited by Intellectually Honest
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1) You draft a QB when your current QB is bad...ours isn’t. 2) You draft a QB when your QB is ending his career...ours isn’t. 3) You draft a QB so you can take advantage of the rookie wage s

I think our chance of winning one in the next three years is higher with Ryan than a QB we could take this year.  After that you take a QB that gives you a better chance the following five years than

With a better OC and a better defense, why couldn't we??

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18 minutes ago, Falcons_Frenzy said:

I won't be mad if the Falcons take a QB and I'm a Ryan supporter. 

Believe it or not, I support Ryan as well. He is a quality human being. I have nothing against him. For me, it's more about TD giving him these massive contracts. Every time he signed with the team he gets paid like he is the Number 1 QB in the league though he plays as if he is top 10-15 ish generally.

Now granted, it's not all TDs fault, that is the market, but the Falcons are so afraid of losing a solid player so they over pay them, rather than taking a risk.

 

The fact is the Falcons are stuck with these overinflated contracts. And even that wouldn't be such a problem if it wasn't for the salary cap. I could care less if Ryan or anyone else got their money if the NFL intentionally didn't cap what the players could make by lying and claiming they wanted "parity". They just didn't want to shell out more money to the players.

But it is what it is. Since teams are "forced" to limit their spending, the amount of money being paid has to account for the level of play.

Ryan is a solid player. Ryan's contract is that of a multiple SB winning HOF annual All pro MVP player. ANd that is not what Ryan is.

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40 minutes ago, Intellectually Honest said:

"LOL" isn't a rebuttal.

Even when we had Shanny, it was Shanny who was blamed for the loss. You have unfalsafiable hypothesis. What is the LIKELINESS of Ryan having  a talented team overall as his MVP year again by the time his current contract is over?

I don't want to hear about possibility. Sure it's possible. I want you to tell me the odds. Will Ryan be as good as he was as he gets older? Will the team be good enough and improve fast enough? Remember to be a SB winning TEAM, all the pieces need to be in place at THE SAME TIME.

Right now Ryan is playing mediocre. So not are you guys hoping that the other positions will improve, but that Ryan will improve back to his old form, and all of that has to occur SIMULTANEOUSLY within the next couple of years. He has a 2 year window MAX. After this contract with Ryan is over, you can bet the Falcons are not going to resign him unless Ryan seriously improves or he asks for a lot less money.

You guys sound like MAGA right now denying we will get a new president. That is always the excuse. It's always someone else's fault ever since he been here. You are making my case for me.

So in order for Ryan to win a SB we need:

New GM

New HC

NEW OC

NEW DC

NEW defensive players

NEW offensive players

maybe we can add special teams?

Does the team need new scouting department also?

And they all have to be good enough and IMPROVE FAST enough, within the next couple of years just so you can tell me "You were wrong".

WHAT ARE THE ODDS?

 

Lol @ brining politics into a discussion about ryan. Absolutely unhinged. 

 

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8 minutes ago, Intellectually Honest said:

Believe it or not, I support Ryan as well. He is a quality human being. I have nothing against him. For me, it's more about TD giving him these massive contracts. Every time he signed with the team he gets paid like he is the Number 1 QB in the league though he plays as if he is top 10-15 ish generally.

Now granted, it's not all TDs fault, that is the market, but the Falcons are so afraid of losing a solid player so they over pay them, rather than taking a risk.

 

The fact is the Falcons are stuck with these overinflated contracts. And even that wouldn't be such a problem if it wasn't for the salary cap. I could care less if Ryan or anyone else got their money if the NFL intentionally didn't cap what the players could make by lying and claiming they wanted "parity". They just didn't want to shell out more money to the players.

But it is what it is. Since teams are "forced" to limit their spending, the amount of money being paid has to account for the level of play.

Ryan is a solid player. Ryan's contract is that of a multiple SB winning HOF annual All pro MVP player. ANd that is not what Ryan is.

5 qbs that haven't even sniffed a super bowl make more than ryan. Ryan is the 10th highest paid qb in the nfl. Unhinged.

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Just now, FalconFanSince1969 said:

5 qbs that haven't even sniffed a super bowl make more than ryan. Ryan is the 10th highest paid qb in the nfl. Unhinged.

You have a reading comprehension problem. "Every time he signed with the team he gets paid like he is the Number 1 QB in the league though he plays as if he is top 10-15 ish generally. "

Was Ryan signed in 2020?

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3 minutes ago, Intellectually Honest said:

You have a reading comprehension problem. "Every time he signed with the team he gets paid like he is the Number 1 QB in the league though he plays as if he is top 10-15 ish generally. "

Was Ryan signed in 2020?

Its almost as if every good qb that signs a deal signs one that is top of the market. Almost.

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1 minute ago, FalconFanSince1969 said:

Its almost as if every good qb that signs a deal signs one that is top of the market. Almost.

Yeah that is true. But the market doesn't reflect what the player is worth, but what the team anticipates. It's not just the Falcons. Teams overpay for QBs since they fear they won't get a decent one to replace them. They overpay with 1 year left because they are afraid if they wait another year, that it will cost them more.

Sometimes that way of thinking works, and it saves the team money in the long run, but most times it bites them in the ***.

Fact is Ryan got the richest Rookie contract ever when he played, and when he was resigned got the top contract in the league, and resigned a 2nd time got the top contract then also. Falcons didn't say "How much are the top QBs make currently?" but "what will the top QB be making?"

Granted Ryan was MVP the last time he signed, but it's not like he played that way for years. The Falcons, like most teams, panicked.  Vikings panicked and overpayed Cousins, and monkey see monkey do.

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21 hours ago, Intellectually Honest said:

Yeah that is true. But the market doesn't reflect what the player is worth, but what the team anticipates. It's not just the Falcons. Teams overpay for QBs since they fear they won't get a decent one to replace them. They overpay with 1 year left because they are afraid if they wait another year, that it will cost them more.

Sometimes that way of thinking works, and it saves the team money in the long run, but most times it bites them in the ***.

Fact is Ryan got the richest Rookie contract ever when he played, and when he was resigned got the top contract in the league, and resigned a 2nd time got the top contract then also. Falcons didn't say "How much are the top QBs make currently?" but "what will the top QB be making?"

Granted Ryan was MVP the last time he signed, but it's not like he played that way for years. The Falcons, like most teams, panicked.  Vikings panicked and overpayed Cousins, and monkey see monkey do.

Highlighted part you dispelled your own argument. FYI, Ryan played as well in 2018 as he did in 2016. Team didn’t, but he did.

Falcons have done a lot of dumb things in their personnel and (especially) coaching decisions, but locking up Ryan is perhaps the smartest thing this organization’s consistently done right.

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16 hours ago, Intellectually Honest said:

I never claimed that he can't. I believe he probably won't and the older he gets that probability grows larger. You are still burden shifting.

As far as fixation goes, I am OK if the Falcons won a SB with Ryan. I am not anti-Ryan. I am just pro Falcons, with or without Ryan. It seems you want the Falcons to win a SB for Ryan rather than the other way around.

Also you are just being stubborn with your poor reasoning. As if being stubborn will make it truer.  Ryan will be 36. Most QBs do not win a SB at that age. You can find exceptions. But unless the team is great, it's highly unlikely.

But it is you who are fixated on Ryan. You say the Falcons have a worse team than the Chiefs. Ryan is part of that team. You speak as if it's Ryan + the Falcons. That Ryan needs better players for HIM to win a SB. Did you ever consider that the Falcons could use a better QB to win a SB? Anyway, even using YOUR belief, by the time Ryan gets this defense you crave so much, he will be that much older, and that much less likely to succeed.

I agree with Cowherd when he says Ryan needs virtually perfect offense to be great. Problem is it will never be that way, and Ryan fans like you will always have an excuse that "we just need better players to surround him". It will either be other offensive players or defensive players, or the coach.

You accept an unfalsifiable hypothesis, since you have no way to accept that Ryan is a problem. He isn't a horrible QB, but he isn't great either. Great QBs carry their team. Based on YOUR belief, you think the team needs to be great to carry Ryan to a SB win. Even if that hypothetical played out, he isn't worth the money, if indeed that did happen since Ryan more or less would be along for the ride.

You are burden shifting by blaming all of the Falcons' problems on Ryan. It's funny that you fail to acknowledge the ineptness of Koetter's play calling and the defense. If you are truly pro Falcons, you would address these problems, but to you, Ryan is the only problem on this team. Do you honestly think that getting a "better" QB, and THAT alone, will allow the Falcons to win a SB? I sure hope not!

I want the Falcons to win a SB WITH Ryan, not FOR him, and they still can WITH changes. This is the NFL and NOT college football. In college football, it typically takes 3-4 years for a new college coach to turn a bad college football team around. The Falcons were 4-12 and an absolute dumpster fire in 2007. In 2008, with a new GM, HC, and QB, the Falcons were 11-5 and went to the playoffs. Teams can turn things around very quickly in the NFL.

 

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On 1/8/2021 at 11:02 AM, TheDirtyWordII said:

Boy, you really had to dig deep to build such a flimsy case.

Ryan = Senyor 18-30 Squared

...and if you think Ryan wasn’t actively losing games for the Falcons the last three years, well...what color is the sky in your world.

Now that you’ve seen Big Ben play against a team without a coach and both starting CBs throw three INTs in the first half, four in the game, has your tune changed at all?  Probably not.  He lost them the game...Ryan hasn’t played this bad all year or in any game in the post season in his career.  But you keep say I’m digging for why I think Ben played worse than Ryan...

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On 1/4/2021 at 12:43 AM, Rings said:

1) You draft a QB when your current QB is bad...ours isn’t.

2) You draft a QB when your QB is ending his career...ours isn’t.

3) You draft a QB so you can take advantage of the rookie wage scale and save a ton of money for five years and build around him...we are still paying Ryan so that isn’t a thing, and we have no money to surround that person with talent.

4) The flawed logic of “we won’t be drafting this high in a long time we we have to take our QB of the future”. This is wrong for two reasons.  QBs taken in the top five have been less successful then the rest of the fist round, and that includes trade ups so it isn’t always bad teams,  second, and most importantly, if we are going to be drafting later the next few years, that means we are winning...with Matt Ryan...so we don’t need a QB right now.

5) Our offense will look night and day better once DK is gone.  He made everyone on offense, including Ryan, look worse than they are.

6) We gave up 44 points today, had a fluke INT and they took a knee on our side of the field, and some think QB is the problem.

It blows my mind that Jets fans fight for Sam Darnold who has accomplished nothing and this fan base is so blind they want to flush Ryan down the toilet.  I am at the point where I almost want it to happen so I can call every person on here out when the grass isn’t greener and they realize Ryan is the best QB this franchise has ever had and for some reason people did nothing but **** on him his whole career, mainly because they have no clue what they are talking about.

True,, True, ,Truth ,,  But with so many great ones at the top of this draft , ,we could get a Load of picks for #4 to a team needing to draft a top QB,,  and we should trade down and get all the players we need to make the playoffs next year. :tiphat:

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1 hour ago, Draftnut57 said:

True,, True, ,Truth ,,  But with so many great ones at the top of this draft , ,we could get a Load of picks for #4 to a team needing to draft a top QB,,  and we should trade down and get all the players we need to make the playoffs next year. :tiphat:

We don’t agree often bro, but 100% this should be the move.  Could get a kings ransom if Fields or Wilson (or both) fall to us.

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Im not paying someone holding a clip board top money. IT MAKES NO SENSE. You grab the best player that can be on the field NOW. Its subjective to say there are no defensive players to take at 4. We dont know what the falcons board looks like. If you want to trade back and grab assets (to build now and in the future btw) hen you do that. But this team will never be successful unless they finally hunker down and build a defense. 

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4 minutes ago, Romfal said:

if you can't trade down there is no player but QB worth that pick, you guys always complain about reaching for need, this is clear BPA situation. 

Don't think there is a cant trade down scenario honestly. Someones gonna want someone at 4. Especially with so many teams talking about finding that QB

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On 1/4/2021 at 2:30 AM, Em_Jae20 said:

You draft the best player available to you at your spot in the draft.  I don't understand how passing on a Justin Fields or Zach Wilson just because you have an MVP level QB helps the team get markedly better for the future.  No position in football is more valuable than the QB and you have a legitimate shot to have 2 great ones on your team at one time.  I mean, when was the last time we had a backup to Matt that could legitimately win us multiple games?  The better teams in the league consistently draft the best player available, look at Baltimore.  Not exactly the same situation, but they still had a Super Bowl winning QB and drafted his replacement in the first round.

Best part of drafting a rookie qb is taking advantage of their low salary.  If we do that and sit him for two years, you waste half your window of building a team around him while he is cheap.  That pick costs about 4mil per year as far as cap hit goes.  IF we plan on moving on from Ryan after next year, I’m on board.  If we don’t have a plan and we just take him and waste half that window while we keep playing Ryan and possible extend him if he plays well next year...I’d be pissed.

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18 hours ago, Intellectually Honest said:

You have a reading comprehension problem. "Every time he signed with the team he gets paid like he is the Number 1 QB in the league though he plays as if he is top 10-15 ish generally. "

Was Ryan signed in 2020?

You’ve claimed multiple people have a “reading comprehension problem”, maybe your logic is just bad.  

Almost every QB who is top 10-15 gets paid like the top QB and then is one upped within weeks.  This isn’t anything new.  If you believe you have a franchise QB you pay them as such knowing they could make even more if they hit the open market.  

Rather than saying other people can’t read, maybe make your posts worth reading.

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9 hours ago, GrimeyKidd said:

Don't think there is a cant trade down scenario honestly. Someones gonna want someone at 4. Especially with so many teams talking about finding that QB

Well, I was headed down to say exactly what you said here..  So... I agree with this, there will be a team needing and wanting one of those pretty amazing QBs that will be available at 4.. Not just a QB ,, Probably the best draft I've ever seen with this many Quality QBs...  We could get at least 3 high picks for our @  4 ,, imagine what we could do with these.. DL, OL, DBs

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On 1/9/2021 at 5:29 PM, dapanch420 said:

picking top 4 in a draft that has 3 qb's with superstar potential, and people want to pass on them? when ours is phyisically declining and in his late 30's. Yall must really hate this team.

ummm. you obviously didn't read MSalmon's post above.

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1 hour ago, Vandy said:

You build a roster through the draft.

Yeah and how long will it take for that to pan out? We only get 7 picks (barring any trades), we have so many holes on the team and whiffs on high draft picks. It's not like we're going to win the Super Bowl because of a few draft picks from 2021.  Matt Ryan and Julio probably have a few good seasons left.

Savvy free agent acquisitions and trades along with draft picks can change the directory of a team. If we're solely building a roster through the draft then that sounds like the beginning of a rebuild, and we need to clear up some cap space to keep the young promising talent rather than hold on to the talent that has a few years left.

 

Edited by ThemDarnFalconsBoy!
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