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I never want to hear Ryan is not the problem anymore


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8 minutes ago, TheDirtyWordII said:

I hold everyone to that standard...the Tarkenton’s, Fouts’s, Marino’s...in the absence of winning the Super Bowl, they set new standards by considerable margins.  I’d hold Philip Rivers to the same standard whose career Ryan’s most closely resembles in terms of like era QB’s (I think he’ll fall short as well).

If the exponential curve is greater than in previous seasons, it’s because the standard set was as well.

QB’s today are significantly more likely to play into their late 30’s early 40’s than previous era in large part because of how the rules have changed to protect them.  This leads to increased durability and less likelihood of catastrophic injury.  In addition, the rules with regard to the protection of receivers also allows for increased probability for production (head shots/over the middle/DPI, etc)...

But ultimately, it really comes down to the fact that best case, Ryan will merely match the standard of the era in which he played versus set new and significantly higher ones as I went thru with Tarkenton/Fouts/Marino.

No you don’t hold them to the same standards which is why Ryan is required to do more even with the average statistical increase he’s already exceeding. I could understand if it was by a small amount but this was a noticeable difference. It shows clear bias.

So now we’re throwing length of career into the mix. Yet another way to move the goalpost from your original argument.

Ryan has exceeded the metrics year over year to be considered for the HOF. You set statistics he must achieve that aren’t inline with the statistical normals. Even though Ryan already exceeding them.

So why the bias?

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7 minutes ago, Sidecar Falcon said:

No you don’t hold them to the same standards which is why Ryan is required to do more even with the average statistical increase he’s already exceeding. I could understand if it was by a small amount but this was a noticeable difference. It shows clear bias.

So now we’re throwing length of career into the mix. Yet another way to move the goalpost from your original argument.

Ryan has exceeded the metrics year over year to be considered for the HOF. You set statistics he must achieve that aren’t inline with the statistical normals. Even though Ryan already exceeding them.

So why the bias?

Length of career matters...

If someone throws for 50,000 in 10 seasons, that’s more impressive that someone who did it in 12.  Is it not?

You feel it’s a bias, I feel differently.  History would appear to be on my side.  When Dave Kreig retired in 1998, he was 8th all time leading passer in NFL history.  When Boomer Esaison retired a year later, he was 9th.  Neither has sniffed the HOF.  And Boomer went to a SB and won an MVP.  And I already brought up the case of John Hadl.  You put the emphasis on numbers...I put the emphasis on standing and accomplishment.  Like I said, history would appear to agree with the latter.

The only constant is we have watched HOF voters when it comes to the QB position set new standards for inclusion...and in all actuality, many of the QB’s who have been inducted or are retired but yet to be eligible don’t even need the type of scrutiny Ryan’s candidacy will require because they leave no doubt.  QB’s inducted over the last 30 years not on the first ballot; Bob Griese, Ken Stabler (veterans inductee no less) and Kurt Warner.  That’s it.  And each of those guys, there’s a special ‘lore’ to each of their respective careers.

Compared to the cavalcade of no-brainers we’ve seen during that time?  We knew Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers were HOFer’s years ago.  Same with Brady, Peyton and even Big Ben.  We know this with Russell Wilson now.

When you combine that with the limit the HOF has on a per year basis and the need to consider all the other positions that get measured by their own criteria...you ask why the goal posts move.  That’s why the goal posts move.  The supply of HOF ‘slots’ is significantly less than the demand.  It doesn’t matter if Ryan equals the percentage increase from previous eras.  It matters if he measures up to and exceeds the new standards being set.

 

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Just looking at the top 100 passers of all-time, it's kinda laughable to try to make an argument that only recently have QBs been able to play into their late 30's and early 40's with any sort of regularity.

None of the players listed below have played in the past decade, and most were well before that.

Dan Marino played until he was 38
John Elway played until he was 38
Warren Moon played until he was 44
Fran Tarkenton played until he was 38
Vinny Testaverde played until he was 44
Kerry Collins played until he was 39
Joe Montana played until he was 38
Johnny Unitas played until he was 40
Dave Kreig played until he was 40
Jim Hart played until he was 40
Steve Deberg played until he was 44
John Hall played until he was 37
Phil Simms played until he was 38
Steve Young played until he was 38
Y.A. Tittle played until he was 38
Ken Anderson played until he was 37
Sonny Jurgensen played until he was 40
Mark Brunell played until he was 41
John Brodie played until he was 38
Norm snead played until he was 37
Randall Cunningham played until he was 41
Joe Ferguson played until he was 40
Jon Kitna played until he was 39
Roman Gabriel played until he was 37
Brad Johnson played until he was 40
Rich Gannon played until he was 39
Len Dawson played until he was 40
Chris Chandler played until he was 39
Trent Green played until he was 38
Ron Jaworski played until he was 38
Ken Stabler played until he was 39
Craig Morton played until he was 39
George Blanda played until he was 48  w/ the bulk of his passing being done from 33-40 years old
Steve Grogan played until he was 37
Jim Harbaugh played until he was 37
Jim Plunkett played until he was 39
Jeff Garcia played until he was 39
Bart Starr played until he was 37
Charley Johson played until he was 37
Steve Beuerlein played until he was 38
Roger Staubach played until he was 37
Vito "Babe" Parilli played until he was 39
Sammy Baugh poled until he was 38
Neil O'Donnell played until he was 37
Gus Frerotte played until he was 37
Earl Morrall played until he was 42

 

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3 hours ago, PriMeTiiMe said:

I think his point still stands though. While yes, Those guys are winning.. 3 of the 4 will be either retired or on new teams next season while Brady will likely be around 2 years. That brand of QB is now being replaced with guys that can move in the pocket and have strong arms. Not all are Lamar Jackson or Kyle Murray type fast but that have the necessary mobility to incorporate all the new wrinkles in NFL offenses these days and can make deep throws on a rope w/ accuracy while on the move.

^ this....some day soon they’ll understand what you’re saying. Yeah a pocket passer can still win in the NFL but these mobile guys with the strong arms is where it’s headed and has been for a while now. Eventually at every level starting at rec league to the NFL dual threat QBs will be the choice. The old statue pocket passer QB is almost extinct in high school. I mean given a choice with all other things equal - I’m taking the mobile guy every time.

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Just now, k-train said:

Just looking at the top 100 passers of all-time, it's kinda laughable to try to make an argument that only recently have QBs been able to play into their late 30's and early 40's with any sort of regularity.

None of the players listed below have played in the past decade, and most were well before that.

Dan Marino played until he was 38
John Elway played until he was 38
Warren Moon played until he was 44
Fran Tarkenton played until he was 38
Vinny Testaverde played until he was 44
Kerry Collins played until he was 39
Joe Montana played until he was 38
Johnny Unitas played until he was 40
Dave Kreig played until he was 40
Jim Hart played until he was 40
Steve Deberg played until he was 44
John Hall played until he was 37
Phil Simms played until he was 38
Steve Young played until he was 38
Y.A. Tittle played until he was 38
Ken Anderson played until he was 37
Sonny Jurgensen played until he was 40
Mark Brunell played until he was 41
John Brodie played until he was 38
Norm snead played until he was 37
Randall Cunningham played until he was 41
Joe Ferguson played until he was 40
Jon Kitna played until he was 39
Roman Gabriel played until he was 37
Brad Johnson played until he was 40
Rich Gannon played until he was 39
Len Dawson played until he was 40
Chris Chandler played until he was 39
Trent Green played until he was 38
Ron Jaworski played until he was 38
Ken Stabler played until he was 39
Craig Morton played until he was 39
George Blanda played until he was 48  w/ the bulk of his passing being done from 33-40 years old
Steve Grogan played until he was 37
Jim Harbaugh played until he was 37
Jim Plunkett played until he was 39
Jeff Garcia played until he was 39
Bart Starr played until he was 37
Charley Johson played until he was 37
Steve Beuerlein played until he was 38
Roger Staubach played until he was 37
Vito "Babe" Parilli played until he was 39
Sammy Baugh poled until he was 38
Neil O'Donnell played until he was 37
Gus Frerotte played until he was 37
Earl Morrall played until he was 42

 

Nice work K Train 

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4 minutes ago, k-train said:

Just looking at the top 100 passers of all-time, it's kinda laughable to try to make an argument that only recently have QBs been able to play into their late 30's and early 40's with any sort of regularity.

None of the players listed below have played in the past decade, and most were well before that.

George Blanda played until he was 48  w/ the bulk of his passing being done from 33-40 years old


 

Blanda was a decent kicker for the Raiders and a serviceable backup for Lemonica during his 40s.  I think he was the original.  I remember people calling him the old man of football. 

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8 minutes ago, Atl Falcon said:

The old statue pocket passer QB is almost extinct in high school. I mean given a choice with all other things equal - I’m taking the mobile guy every time.

Has that not always been true?  When I played high school football plays were primarily RB runs, QB runs, with an occasional pass.  I think for a lot of guys their hands are not large enough to sling a football like the pros.  Sometimes those floaters are effective but you have to know who the corners are before you do much of that.  I remember covering a receiver, watching the QB focus on another receiver, lean back, put everything on the ball he could, and I was able to cross the field and intercept.  No way I could do that with a NFL pro QB, but we could catch a few ducks in high school.  And, those footballs started getting round without too much abuse making it even harder to grip or throw.

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24 minutes ago, TheDirtyWordII said:

Length of career matters...

If someone throws for 50,000 in 10 seasons, that’s more impressive that someone who did it in 12.  Is it not?

You feel it’s a bias, I feel differently.  History would appear to be on my side.  When Dave Kreig retired in 1998, he was 8th all time leading passer in NFL history.  When Boomer Esaison retired a year later, he was 9th.  Neither has sniffed the HOF.  And Boomer went to a SB and won an MVP.  And I already brought up the case of John Hadl.  You put the emphasis on numbers...I put the emphasis on standing and accomplishment.  Like I said, history would appear to agree with the latter.

The only constant is we have watched HOF voters when it comes to the QB position set new standards for inclusion...and in all actuality, many of the QB’s who have been inducted or are retired but yet to be eligible don’t even need the type of scrutiny Ryan’s candidacy will require because they leave no doubt.  QB’s inducted over the last 30 years not on the first ballot; Bob Griese, Ken Stabler (veterans inductee no less) and Kurt Warner.  That’s it.  And each of those guys, there’s a special ‘lore’ to each of their respective careers.

Compared to the cavalcade of no-brainers we’ve seen during that time?  We knew Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers were HOFer’s years ago.  Same with Brady, Peyton and even Big Ben.  We know this with Russell Wilson now.

When you combine that with the limit the HOF has on a per year basis and the need to consider all the other positions that get measured by their own criteria...you ask why the goal posts move.  That’s why the goal posts move.  The supply of HOF ‘slots’ is significantly less than the demand.  It doesn’t matter if Ryan equals the percentage increase from previous eras.  It matters if he measures up to and exceeds the new standards being set.

 

Ima MR homer to the max, and totally agree with this statement.  

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31 minutes ago, k-train said:

Just looking at the top 100 passers of all-time, it's kinda laughable to try to make an argument that only recently have QBs been able to play into their late 30's and early 40's with any sort of regularity.

None of the players listed below have played in the past decade, and most were well before that.

Dan Marino played until he was 38
John Elway played until he was 38
Warren Moon played until he was 44
Fran Tarkenton played until he was 38
Vinny Testaverde played until he was 44
Kerry Collins played until he was 39
Joe Montana played until he was 38
Johnny Unitas played until he was 40
Dave Kreig played until he was 40
Jim Hart played until he was 40
Steve Deberg played until he was 44
John Hall played until he was 37
Phil Simms played until he was 38
Steve Young played until he was 38
Y.A. Tittle played until he was 38
Ken Anderson played until he was 37
Sonny Jurgensen played until he was 40
Mark Brunell played until he was 41
John Brodie played until he was 38
Norm snead played until he was 37
Randall Cunningham played until he was 41
Joe Ferguson played until he was 40
Jon Kitna played until he was 39
Roman Gabriel played until he was 37
Brad Johnson played until he was 40
Rich Gannon played until he was 39
Len Dawson played until he was 40
Chris Chandler played until he was 39
Trent Green played until he was 38
Ron Jaworski played until he was 38
Ken Stabler played until he was 39
Craig Morton played until he was 39
George Blanda played until he was 48  w/ the bulk of his passing being done from 33-40 years old
Steve Grogan played until he was 37
Jim Harbaugh played until he was 37
Jim Plunkett played until he was 39
Jeff Garcia played until he was 39
Bart Starr played until he was 37
Charley Johson played until he was 37
Steve Beuerlein played until he was 38
Roger Staubach played until he was 37
Vito "Babe" Parilli played until he was 39
Sammy Baugh poled until he was 38
Neil O'Donnell played until he was 37
Gus Frerotte played until he was 37
Earl Morrall played until he was 42

 

As 14/16 game starters like we see today?

Lot of these guys hung around as backups for sure.

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18 minutes ago, NaGaBoy said:

Has that not always been true?  When I played high school football plays were primarily RB runs, QB runs, with an occasional pass.  I think for a lot of guys their hands are not large enough to sling a football like the pros.  Sometimes those floaters are effective but you have to know who the corners are before you do much of that.  I remember covering a receiver, watching the QB focus on another receiver, lean back, put everything on the ball he could, and I was able to cross the field and intercept.  No way I could do that with a NFL pro QB, but we could catch a few ducks in high school.  And, those footballs started getting round without too much abuse making it even harder to grip or throw.

So true about HS QBS.

It's why Lawrence stood out when I say him totally destroy our local HS years ago. He was tossing 30-40 yard passes on a line and hitting WRs basically in stride. Then his backup came in the second half and was doing the same thing. I always wonder where that backup is these days.

Edited by Geneaut
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6 hours ago, kenn.junior said:

cmon the defense has been better I will admit that but there has been games where they have played terrible ie. the bucs game and I disagree with put the foot on the gas we should just run the clock out but we just dont have the OC and the running back to do that throwing 45+ passes when you up 10+ pts in the 4th qtr is straight up dumb.

Offense goes too conservative in the 2ns half. They always play it safe instead of staying aggressive. Thats how you lose games. If we know th e defense is not the best, all the more reason for the offense to keep scoring 

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6 minutes ago, Geneaut said:

So true about HS QBS.

It's why Lawrence stand out when I say him totally destroy our local HS years ago. He was tossing 30-40 yard passes on a line and hitting WRs basically in stride. Then his backup came in the second half and was doing the same thing. I always wonder where that backup is these days.

I watched a kid in high school just dominate basketball games.  He was 6'8" and jumped like a deer.  Nimble as ****, and quick.  And....nothing.  He never played college ball.  Years later I bumped into him in Germany.  He had joined the USAF and was an electrician.  He just didn't love basketball, but loved electronics and being and electrician.  People find their path.

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17 hours ago, Geaux_Falcons said:

You do realize Ryan can only play within the offensive playcalling right?! He can't just go out there and say, "Hey Gage, run me a 7, Ridley 9, and Hurst Drag. If it's not in the playbook, he can't just call it. A good OC would call/create the plays to make sure that happens. When Shanny was here, we did that. Coaching matters no matter who you have at QB. 

But the same thing happened with Shanahan. Offense would get conservative and start making dumb mitsakes.

Ryan does not have that side that wants to decimate opponents. He rather play it safe and play " not to lose"

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7 minutes ago, caponine said:

Offense goes too conservative in the 2ns half. They always play it safe instead of staying aggressive. Thats how you lose games. If we know th e defense is not the best, all the more reason for the offense to keep scoring 

we do stay aggressive hence why we lost the SB if we would run the ball like a smart team we win we only ran 7 times after half 

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