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Response to those against trading Ryan


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Just now, Intellectually Honest said:

We still don't fundamentally agree on the overall strength of the team, which is the biggest issue.  Correct me if I am wrong. But it seems your position is you think the team just needs to be tweaked a little to be a legit SB contender, and we need Ryan to have that. Is that correct?

Nope that’s not my position.

My position is that Ryan’s window to win a SB is 2 years. I don’t see any conceivable way to win a SB in that time frame given the state of this roster and the future of the team.

Releasing Ryan, or trading Ryan for a nominal pick creates no return on investment. Whether we keep Ryan or trade Ryan, we have the same exact money spent. The only difference is that if we incur that dead cap from a release/trade we get zero return on investment.

If we keep Ryan and draft his successor then Ryan can tutor him for the next year or two. That knowledge that he imparts is worth more than a nominal pick. It’s priceless actually. Think about how much of an influence that Joe Horn had on Roddy White. Ryan can have that influence on his successor.

Now compliment that with the potential to build a new team around our next QB without putting him at risk getting hurt and setting him up for success. You don’t have money you can’t use, and you have now effectively placed your new QB in the best spot to be successful. 

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Just now, AllStarHandyMan said:

a statement or idea taken to be true and on which an argument or reasoning may be based. 2 premises plural : a piece of land with the buildings on it

now you really confusing me your not talking about a piece of land right?.... if not it most be a statement or idea that you take to be true and on which this argument is based on.... hahahahah 

Here another movie quote for you... this time from buzz  "You are a sad, strange little man, and you have my pity."

You have a nervous laughter I see. Seek help.

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Falcons are not an above average talented team in the league. Ryan and JJ being a top  QB and a HOF receiver created a window. That window is all but closed. 

I firmly believe that the rebuild / reload necessary to address the talent problem will be a multi-year deal. I would put the Falcons chances at a SB in the next three years in the 0.%

I look to trade JJ and Ryan as soon as feasibly possible. I also think that the cap is not an issue for a few years because we will not be signing any rich FA to a losing team

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4 minutes ago, Intellectually Honest said:

You have a nervous laughter I see. Seek help.

Nervous laughter... thats me laughing at the hole you keep digging your self in. I see you have a problem admiting you are wrong in every statement you made. That you have a problem putting your pride aside even when you are wrong. 😄 

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As far as Matt Ryan being "too old" to contend for a Super Bowl, that's simply a lie. Plenty of "old" QBs have won Super Bowls/NFL Championships or contended for them.

  • Tom Brady - 41 (Won Super Bowl - 2018)
  • Tom Brady - 39 (Won Super Bowl - 2016)
  • Peyton Manning - 39 (Won Super Bowl - 2015)
  • John Elway - 38 (Won Super Bowl - 1998)
  • Earl Morrall - 38 (Won Super Bowl - 1972)
  • Tom Brady - 37 (Won Super Bowl - 2014)
  • John Elway - 37 (Won Super Bowl - 1997)
  • Peyton Manning - 37 (Lost Super Bowl - 2013)
  • Kurt Warner - 37 (Lost Super Bowl - 2008)
  • Johnny Unitas - 37 (Won Super Bowl - 1970)
  • Jim Plunkett - 36 (Won Super Bowl - 1983)
  • Phil Simms - 35 (Won Super Bowl - 1990)
  • Roger Staubach - 35 (Won Super Bowl - 1977)

I'm tired of looking up this thing but hopefully you get the picture.

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8 minutes ago, tbhawksfan said:

Falcons are not an above average talented team in the league. Ryan and JJ being a top  QB and a HOF receiver created a window. That window is all but closed. 

I firmly believe that the rebuild / reload necessary to address the talent problem will be a multi-year deal. I would put the Falcons chances at a SB in the next three years in the 0.%

I look to trade JJ and Ryan as soon as feasibly possible. I also think that the cap is not an issue for a few years because we will not be signing any rich FA to a losing team

Having cap space isn't about spending big money in free agency. Having cap space would keep you from having to field a roster full of undrafted free agents because you can't sign any veteran players. Then if you go that route you have the chance to ruining your shiny new QB the same way the Texans ruined David Carr. The same way the Lions ruined Joey Harrington. The same way the Browns ruined Tim Couch. The same way the lots of young QBs have been ruined over the years because the team around them was so bad they had no hope of success and got their brains absolutely beat in. Then what? Then you've got a bad football team with no hope of the future because you put all your eggs in the basket of a shiny new QB and he is now broken beyond repair. That sounds like a wonderful future!!

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1 minute ago, Sidecar Falcon said:

Nope that’s not my position.

My position is that Ryan’s window to win a SB is 2 years. I don’t see any conceivable way to win a SB in that time frame given the state of this roster and the future of the team.

Releasing Ryan, or trading Ryan for a nominal pick creates no return on investment. Whether we keep Ryan or trade Ryan, we have the same exact money spent. The only difference is that if we incur that dead cap from a release/trade we get zero return on investment.

If we keep Ryan and draft his successor then Ryan can tutor him for the next year or two. That knowledge that he imparts is worth more than a nominal pick. It’s priceless actually. Think about how much of an influence that Joe Horn had on Roddy White. Ryan can have that influence on his successor.

Now compliment that with the potential to build a new team around our next QB without putting him at risk getting hurt and setting him up for success. You don’t have money you can’t use, and you have now effectively placed your new QB in the best spot to be successful. 

Well I am trying to have an idea of your overall evaluation on the team's strength. I am not concerned if Ryan can win a Super Bowl by himself. But with the team. So how good Ryan is and how good he needs to play is going to be based on the team as a whole.

The worse the team is, the better Ryan has to play for the team to have a chance. The better the rest of the team, Ryan has more space to do poorly. The worse it is, Ryan has a much smaller margin of error. If you think Ryan has a 2 year window, then you would still have to evaluate the rest of the team. Is Ryan good enough because the rest of the team is good enough also within that 2 year space?

Then you go back to cap space. The cap space issue is tied to the team's overall strength issue. If money is tight, but the team is well within position to be a SB contender, than the team doesn't need to improve, but just hold onto what they have. But if the team is weak, even if you keep what you have i.e. no dead cap, then even if you keep Ryan, you have virtually no room to improve the quality of team you have via players.

it goes back to overall team evaluation. I see the team needing a major overhaul. The cap space sucks. With or without dead cap. I dont believe the team can improve, much if any, because of the cap issue, and I believe the team won't turn it around enough within the timespan Ryan is on the team. Not because he is a problem yet, but he and his other teammates take a bunch of cap space now. By the time the Falcons turn this around, IMHO, the Falcons are going to need a new QB any, and that is IF they keep Ryan till his contract runs out.

Lets put it this way, while I do think Ryan is a good QB, I dont think he is good enough to carry his current supporting cast. By the time they are good enough, and Ryan doesn't need to carry them, I dont believe he will be anymore. That is the issue I have. I dont believe Ryan and the rest of the team will all be good at the SAME TIME, which I believe is required to win a SB.

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9 minutes ago, AllStarHandyMan said:

 

Nervous laughter... thats me laughing at the hole you keep digging your self in. I see you have a problem admiting you are wrong in every statement you made. That you have a problem putting your pride aside even when you are wrong. 😄 

For a hole I am digging myself in, you have yet to show the fallacy I made nor argue against my position. Your response either bringing up irrelevant points or LOL. I guess to you that is how you win a debate.

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19 minutes ago, AUTiger7222 said:

As far as Matt Ryan being "too old" to contend for a Super Bowl, that's simply a lie. Plenty of "old" QBs have won Super Bowls/NFL Championships or contended for them.

  • Tom Brady - 41 (Won Super Bowl - 2018)
  • Tom Brady - 39 (Won Super Bowl - 2016)
  • Peyton Manning - 39 (Won Super Bowl - 2015)
  • John Elway - 38 (Won Super Bowl - 1998)
  • Earl Morrall - 38 (Won Super Bowl - 1972)
  • Tom Brady - 37 (Won Super Bowl - 2014)
  • John Elway - 37 (Won Super Bowl - 1997)
  • Peyton Manning - 37 (Lost Super Bowl - 2013)
  • Kurt Warner - 37 (Lost Super Bowl - 2008)
  • Johnny Unitas - 37 (Won Super Bowl - 1970)
  • Jim Plunkett - 36 (Won Super Bowl - 1983)
  • Phil Simms - 35 (Won Super Bowl - 1990)
  • Roger Staubach - 35 (Won Super Bowl - 1977)

I'm tired of looking up this thing but hopefully you get the picture.

Tom Brady counts as one player. Not sure why you include him 3 times. Same with Peyton and Elway, which is 2 times each.

 

Anyway, you think Ryan can do it because some of the greatest QBs of all time were able to do it? What does their success have to do with Ryan's? Does Ryan get to play with their teams and have their coaches? Last time i checked, unless Ryan is in the same situation they are, even if they could do it, doesn't mean he can. It's called a nonsequitur.

 

I guess your point is that it's possible for Ryan to win a SB at that age. Yeah it's possible. Is it probable?

 

Also I never claimed Ryan is too old to win a SB. You don't read. My point had to do with Ryan and the rest of his team BOTH being good enough at the same time.  Plus it seems you create a false dichotomy between facts and lies. There is a third option. Being honestly mistaken. 

Edited by Intellectually Honest
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If we’re so far off from building a competent football team, shouldn’t we be able to organically acquire a high draft pick to draft Ryan’s successor? If so, what benefit do we get by trading Ryan before his contract runs out? If not, do we come to the conclusion we are closer to building a contender than we are to being bottom of the barrel?

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2 minutes ago, Wjcorner said:

If we’re so far off from building a competent football team, shouldn’t we be able to organically acquire a high draft pick to draft Ryan’s successor? If so, what benefit do we get by trading Ryan before his contract runs out? If not, do we come to the conclusion we are closer to building a contender than we are to being bottom of the barrel?

It's not a 0 sum game. It's a trade off.

Ryan's and other players hefty contracts have created a problem. The dead cap space is an issue IF you believe the Falcons will contend next year so they need that space to tweak the team. I don't believe the team needs to be tweaked. I think it needs a major overhaul which I believe is going to take years.

I am talking about a serious SB contender. Not the type of team Smitty gave us, that pops in and out of the playoffs, getting their a** handed to them. I am not fine with being just fine. I want a dominant team.

That being said, the dead cap space is irrelevant, IMHO since I think the team is going to struggle in these next couple of years with or without Ryan. I'd rather deal with the money issue before next years draft, taking a hit on money for one year, rather than wait because I have no faith in the overall talent and culture the team currently has.

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25 minutes ago, Intellectually Honest said:

For a hole I am digging myself in, you have yet to show the fallacy I made nor argue against my position. Your response either bringing up irrelevant points or LOL. I guess to you that is how you win a debate.

Well the other side has to have some type of argument that warrants a debate, but ill indulge. Your statement is to the ones that are against trading ryan. My counter statement was a movie quote and we can't because of money and dead cap... 

 

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Just now, Intellectually Honest said:

It's not a 0 sum game. It's a trade off.

Ryan's and other players hefty contracts have created a problem. The dead cap space is an issue IF you believe the Falcons will contend next year so they need that space to tweak the team. I don't believe the team needs to be tweaked. I think it needs a major overhaul which I believe is going to take years.

I am talking about a serious SB contender. Not the type of team Smitty gave us, that pops in and out of the playoffs, getting their a** handed to them. I am not fine with being just fine. I want a dominant team.

That being said, the dead cap space is irrelevant, IMHO since I think the team is going to struggle in these next couple of years with or without Ryan. I'd rather deal with the money issue before next years draft, taking a hit on money for one year, rather than wait because I have no faith in the overall talent and culture the team currently has.

So you don’t think playing on this team you have no faith in, could hurt a rookie’s future potential? That’s the catch, in my eyes. If we push in all our chips for this young guy, but he has to deal with question marks at LG and C, an overpaid overrated LT, an ‘old injury prone’ WR, no running game, and a bad defense...and this kid is the prodigal son, Jesus in shoulder pads, so he’s getting murdered if he doesn’t come in hot...you don’t think that sets us back where we’re questioning if we shouldn’t take the new hot prospect the next time we’re in position? 
 

I just really don’t understand why someone who thinks this team is THAT far off, wouldn’t want to organically get the high draft pick, draft the successor, and play some cap magic to build up until we can do a spending spree and set up an environment the rookie can thrive in. Instead of throwing him to the wolves that has an established good QB seeing ghosts sometimes.

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Some people were quoting movies, and it reminded me of some scenes from the movie "Other People's Money"

The people who don't want to trade sound similar to Gregory Peck's character in having faith in the company, which he is arguing against to be sold - which I think is analogous to arguing against trading away Ryan.

 

 

The other argument comes from Danny Devito's character, as he has no faith in the company turning around, and thinks they need to sell to make a new start.

 

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2 minutes ago, FalconFanSince1969 said:

The thread should have been ended when you were told about what it would do to the cap.

You don't listen. People who don't listen are usually the stupid ones who think they're smarter than anybody else in the room.

So in other words you made a great argument because you said so and those who already believed they were right still think they are right. Why didn't I listen? How can I not acknowledge such flawless reasoning? It's the old "I said X is true, therefore X is true, therefore you lose'" argument. Genius!

Did I acknowledge dead cap space? Yes. Did I respond to it? Yes. Did you read my response or rebut what I said? No. But we can ignore that because you are your own cheer leading section.

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1 hour ago, AUTiger7222 said:

Having cap space isn't about spending big money in free agency. Having cap space would keep you from having to field a roster full of undrafted free agents because you can't sign any veteran players. Then if you go that route you have the chance to ruining your shiny new QB the same way the Texans ruined David Carr. The same way the Lions ruined Joey Harrington. The same way the Browns ruined Tim Couch. The same way the lots of young QBs have been ruined over the years because the team around them was so bad they had no hope of success and got their brains absolutely beat in. Then what? Then you've got a bad football team with no hope of the future because you put all your eggs in the basket of a shiny new QB and he is now broken beyond repair. That sounds like a wonderful future!!

No argument from me. Problem is that we are in cap hel with or without MR / JJ for the next 2-3 years. OL is looking good but the D is a catastophy

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1 hour ago, Intellectually Honest said:

For a hole I am digging myself in, you have yet to show the fallacy I made nor argue against my position. Your response either bringing up irrelevant points or LOL. I guess to you that is how you win a debate.

But for fun. We cut Ryan you have 40mil in dead cap space we have to get below. How do we do it? Who do you cut to get under the salary cap?

 

Edited by AllStarHandyMan
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3 minutes ago, AllStarHandyMan said:

But for fun. We cut Ryan you have 40mil in dead cap space we have to get below. How do we do it? Who do you cut to get under the salary cap?

 

What difference does it make? You are not interested in debate. You certainly are not interested in my position and arguing against it. You see this as an issue of pride and one up's man ship. You might as well respond with LOL and with whatever quip you are going to make.

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1 hour ago, Wjcorner said:

So you don’t think playing on this team you have no faith in, could hurt a rookie’s future potential? That’s the catch, in my eyes. If we push in all our chips for this young guy, but he has to deal with question marks at LG and C, an overpaid overrated LT, an ‘old injury prone’ WR, no running game, and a bad defense...and this kid is the prodigal son, Jesus in shoulder pads, so he’s getting murdered if he doesn’t come in hot...you don’t think that sets us back where we’re questioning if we shouldn’t take the new hot prospect the next time we’re in position? 
 

I just really don’t understand why someone who thinks this team is THAT far off, wouldn’t want to organically get the high draft pick, draft the successor, and play some cap magic to build up until we can do a spending spree and set up an environment the rookie can thrive in. Instead of throwing him to the wolves that has an established good QB seeing ghosts sometimes.

A rookies potential can be harmed either way. Some rookies can handle a bad situation and some don't. I'd rather have 2 really bad years to eventually turn things around vs 5 mediocre years before we do it. But that is just me. To me mediocrity is the worst. It gives fans false hope, especially management that serious changes need to be "tweeked". I'd rather win big or lose big rather than constantly being in the middle.

Edited by Intellectually Honest
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9 minutes ago, Intellectually Honest said:

What difference does it make? You are not interested in debate. You certainly are not interested in my position and arguing against it. You see this as an issue of pride and one up's man ship. You might as well respond with LOL and with whatever quip you are going to make.

No this time I'm very interested in the answer. Not going to lie I almost put "you would cut julio jones to get more cap space" (even though it would cost us 28mil in dead cap) but I didn't. But you are so strongly in favor of your opinion, even when everyone is telling you NO. Yet you keep debating.... 

So I am truly interested of how you can pull it off. How many picks did we get with Matt Ryan or did you just cut him. if you did cut him when, what year? who is our GM and Head coach? Break it down. What our draft pick looking like is he giving us a better change now then ryan is?

Edited by AllStarHandyMan
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1 hour ago, AUTiger7222 said:

Having cap space isn't about spending big money in free agency. Having cap space would keep you from having to field a roster full of undrafted free agents because you can't sign any veteran players. Then if you go that route you have the chance to ruining your shiny new QB the same way the Texans ruined David Carr. The same way the Lions ruined Joey Harrington. The same way the Browns ruined Tim Couch. The same way the lots of young QBs have been ruined over the years because the team around them was so bad they had no hope of success and got their brains absolutely beat in. Then what? Then you've got a bad football team with no hope of the future because you put all your eggs in the basket of a shiny new QB and he is now broken beyond repair. That sounds like a wonderful future!!

All QBs at one time are rookies. Why pick Carr? It could be the next Tom Brady. Who knows? This seems more about fear of the unknown with you. You rather stick with Ryan because it can be much worse. Did you ever consider it can be better also?

Edited by Intellectually Honest
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34 minutes ago, Intellectually Honest said:

So in other words you made a great argument because you said so and those who already believed they were right still think they are right. Why didn't I listen? How can I not acknowledge such flawless reasoning? It's the old "I said X is true, therefore X is true, therefore you lose'" argument. Genius!

Did I acknowledge dead cap space? Yes. Did I respond to it? Yes. Did you read my response or rebut what I said? No. But we can ignore that because you are your own cheer leading section.

There was no rebuttal. You never gave us any answers as to how you would clear 30+ million in cap space just to get us under the cap. You answered nothing. Go ahead and look at a cap calculator and let us know all the cuts you'd make just to get us under the cap. Come up with a logical plan and then we will talk.

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