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Here are questions for the anti-tankers


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This topic has been done to death and no one is going to change their minds.

Doesn't invalidate anything I said. It's a freaking dead horse.

Tankers- Convinced that a rookie QB will come in and succeed in the NFL without any doubt Convinced that the Matt Ryan we saw yesterday is ready for retirement

58 minutes ago, Halcon-1 said:

I never stated or implied any of this. You have nothing to counter anything I said. . . grasping at straws now. 

Yeah you did. Your 'rebuttal' to why tanking is foolish since it was stupid to believe a team would intentionally lose. You said "No team is tanking."

Tankers don't believe teams will tank. Tanking is what the tanker wants, not what the team wants. 

PS: If I am wrong about what you mean by "No team is tanking", then tell me what you DO mean by that statement.

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26 minutes ago, Intellectually Honest said:

Yeah you did. Your 'rebuttal' to why tanking is foolish since it was stupid to believe a team would intentionally lose. You said "No team is tanking."

Tankers don't believe teams will tank. Tanking is what the tanker wants, not what the team wants. 

PS: If I am wrong about what you mean by "No team is tanking", then tell me what you DO mean by that statement.

Care to address my post and offer something substantial? What is the point in this if it not even a remote possibility? 

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38 minutes ago, Halcon-1 said:

Care to address my post and offer something substantial? What is the point in this if it not even a remote possibility? 

I asked you a question based on your statement. I stated that I believe you meant that "Teams don't tank" to mean that tankers believe teams will intentionally lose. I said tankers don't believe that and it is a straw man. You claimed I misunderstood you. I am asking you if I am wrong in your statement, what do you mean?

We can't discuss anything if we can't get on the same page with what our positions are in the first place. Otherwise, we will just be speaking past each other.  I am assuming you have good faith in a civil discussion.

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7 hours ago, #84 said:

Again an intentionally bad faith argument based on false dichotomy either I believe we win a SB with Ryan in the next 2 years or believe we can totally strip a roster into a 2 win class team and rebuild to superbowl contenders on his rookie deal.  I dont believe either of those things are true like it or not 9-7 is better than top overall picks most times.  It takes time to build a winner we won't strip this roster and instantly rebuild around Trevor in his rookie deal but don't take my word for it look at the facts.

Top 5 QBs

 Picks over the last 10 years: 15

Probowls only 14 total: 9 of those are Cam/Goff/Luck so 12 of those guys combined for 4 pro bowls

Only 3 SB appearances among them

Only 1 win and that was Wentz who didn't play the playoffs

Only 18 playoff appearances 12 between Goff/Cam/Luck/DeShawn

6 of the fifteen haven't made the postseason even once thats 40%

Last 10 SB winning QBs:

Brady 3x 6th round pick

Wilson 3rd round pick

Foles 3rd round pick

Mahomes 10th overall still sat 1 year behind Alex Smith on a team that was already a consistent winner making the playoffs 3 consecutive years before he took over an already good ball club

Peyton 1st overall 1st title came in his 9th season

Eli 1st overall sat behind HOFer Kurt Warner half a season won a title in his 4th season

Rodgers 24th overall sat for 3 years first title win in his 6th season

Joe Flacco 18th overall first title win in his fifth season

So overall you have only half the titles won by 1st round picks and only three of those guys won within five years.  Of those only Joe Flacco did not learn from the bench.  Your strategy of just grab a QB and build the team around him in five years has not been done before.  These guys either came into good situations where the team was already playoff caliber (Brady/Rodgers/Mahomes/Wilson) or took many years to rebuild the franchise around their strengths ala the Mannings.  Or used a great team to cover up the glaring hole at QB (Foles/Flacco) Lots of ways to win none of them involve putting a great young QB onto a losing team

First "9-7 is better than top overall top picks" Not when it happens consistently, That's called obscurity

Second, In the scenario at the bottom, Matt Ryan only fits into the last scenario, because this franchise has spent the last dime on him and the offense, So If the glaring hole is at QB, which it is sitting at 1-5, how do you build around an overpaid aging QB?

Third if his post was unclear, he states it several times, I have stated it several times, The goal this offseason is to get the new future of this franchise, Pride can speak, but no heart in here truly believes that the Falcons have enough time on Matt Ryan's busted clock to build a Superbowl Contender 

If they drag themselves out of position to secure a future, I promise its another decade before this franchise gets a shot at the Superbowl, and some of you are comfortable with that reality, just to keep one player around.....smh

As I watch Kyler Murray show Arizona what the future holds, makes me sick.......

 

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1 minute ago, Intellectually Honest said:

I asked you a question based on your statement. I stated that I believe you meant that "Teams don't tank" to mean that tankers believe teams will intentionally lose. I said tankers don't believe that since it is a straw man. You claimed I misunderstood you. I am asking you if I am wrong in your statement, what do you mean?

We can't discuss anything if we can't get on the same page with what our positions are in the first place. Otherwise, we will just be speaking past each other.  I am assuming you have good faith in a civil discussion.

good night

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You should change your name. Not a slight against you or anything personal. I can get personal and have regrettably done so. Shamefully, actually...  I’m Not sure if the posters here are on the “right side”, or  the “wrong side” of whatever the argument, let’s say that the discussion always  has devolved too. The phrase “Intellectually Honest” or the name...does not work in sports. There’s no such thing. Sorry man or woman. I don’t know you. Not trying to be mean. 

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2 minutes ago, the baptist said:

First "9-7 is better than top overall top picks" Not when it happens consistently, That's called obscurity

Second, In the scenario at the bottom, Matt Ryan only fits into the last scenario, because this franchise has spent the last dime on him and the offense, So If the glaring hole is at QB, which it is sitting at 1-5, how do you build around an overpaid aging QB?

Third if his post was unclear, he states it several times, I have stated it several times, The goal this offseason is to get the new future of this franchise, Pride can speak, but no heart in here truly believes that the Falcons have enough time on Matt Ryan's busted clock to build a Superbowl Contender 

If they drag themselves out of position to secure a future, I promise its another decade before this franchise gets a shot at the Superbowl, and some of you are comfortable with that reality, just to keep one player around.....smh

As I watch Kyler Murray show Arizona what the future holds, makes me sick.......

 

It seems, and I am being charitable here, that as fans we have different objectives in our desire for the overall goal of the team. It seems some fans want the team to win, even if it has has nothing to do with eventually getting to a Super Bowl. I think us tankers believe we need a strategy to get to the Super Bowl ASAP, even if it means sacrificing some wins in the short term.

 

I think people assume we are all on the same page when we aren't. Based on that assumption, they will say "your argument is silly" since they have no idea where the other person is coming from philosophically. Before you know it, the discussions fall into bashing each other. It's unfortunate.

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11 minutes ago, Intellectually Honest said:

It seems, and I am being charitable here, that as fans we have different objectives in our desire for the overall goal of the team. It seems some fans want the team to win, even if it has has nothing to do with eventually getting to a Super Bowl. I think us tankers believe we need a strategy to get to the Super Bowl ASAP, even if it means sacrificing some wins in the short term.

 

I think people assume we are all on the same page when we aren't. Based on that assumption, they will say "your argument is silly" since they have no idea where the other person is coming from philosophically. Before you know it, the discussions fall into bashing each other. It's unfortunate.

Truth Hurts, natural insecurities will make people attack you and not the argument being made

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5 hours ago, Boise Falcon Fan said:

I'm not sure that is the case, but we all have our own opinion. I'm sure he's good, but I'm not sure he's Peyton Manning good.

Me too. Just a thought process. I can’t turn it off, but no matter though...I’ll be out of here., most times in the future, pretty much gone. I took a second job working late seconds. Manual labor, not for the money. To get off the couch...the phone. Get paid to lose some weight. Work some muscles that have gotten soft working off the years behind the desk. No matter. Time to leave the same arguments over the past 20 years for the youth. All good! Love you brother! 

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9 hours ago, HASHBROWN3 said:

You knew it would when OP tried to reheat 10 day old meat loaf by dressing it up with spices & telling you that the **** you're eating isn't bad because he prepared it with all the trimmings to disguise the taste, & that you must agree that it's a freshly cut filet mignon.  

Here to put the mirror on you! Best way to avoid it being on me!

 

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11 hours ago, Wjcorner said:

The sacrifice would end up hurting the heir apparent. The whole benefit of a rookie contract is the ability to build strong around the rookie contract. 

 

Google leading question. Any sane person would choose a SB win, which slants any input you’re looking for.

 

If he doesn’t come cheap after this contract you can cut ties without destroying your cap to build around the next guy. Cutting prematurely you handicap yourself with a QB who will probably not play better than Ryan right now, with a worst team. If I’m shooting for a young QB, I want him in a winning position, not behind the 8 ball. 

So to put this team, in that winning position you talked about, you would have to build right?

If they aren't in position to build now OR NEXT YEAR.....When will they be in position to put this team in that "winning position"?

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5 hours ago, hjerry said:

These are the very definition of loaded questions. The entire thing is set up so that, no matter what you say (unless you completely agree with OP), you are conceding multiple points that agree with OP. From the word go, you are starting at a disadvantage, in a hole you can't possibly climb out of.  This is 

This entire thing is a trap to trick those OP doesn't agree with into being proven "wrong" very poorly veiled as open discussion 

This accomplishes nothing (except for maybe ego stroking the OP that is)

So...Narcissism?

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19 minutes ago, the baptist said:

So to put this team, in that winning position you talked about, you would have to build right?

If they aren't in position to build now OR NEXT YEAR.....When will they be in position to put this team in that "winning position"?

I don't think in his reasoning he even sees Ryan regressing. For him it also seems that with Ryan's big contract, we might as well win with him, because sacrificing wins for the future is not on the table and thus to root against the Falcons is silly given the circumstances.

Yeah, we are probably stuck with Ryan unless Blank starts seeing we need to blow it up also. That being said, being stuck with him, doesn't mean to throw more money at a stock that is falling. That just means not only are you delaying the eventual change, but you are just sacrificing more of the team's resources to be stubborn. You don't throw money into a bull market unless you are shorting a stock.

You got to know when to cut your losses. That is how I see it. I think his idea of a being in a position to build is when Ryan's contract runs out. 

It's like someone saying we spent all this money on this food and doesn't realize that the food is going bad or is about to go bad so we should not get fresh groceries. That we should continue eating that food since it's all we can afford, and old food is better than new food because it will mean going back to the store and spending more money.

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Coaching matters more to this team moving forward than any scenario that would include expecting, hoping or planning on players losing. Why would I cheer for that? It’s against their own efforts.

Many scenarios exist with no guarantee of a SB keeping Ryan or getting a SB moving on. It’s arguably easier to revamp with Ryan based on what you know.

The rest is speculation and trying to capture lightning in a bottle. No one here knows what will work because no one can guarantee a SB with EITHER approach because it depends on more factors than how you end up with a SB caliber team and it’s beyond just the QB. You already know what you have with Ryan; like him or not. It’s more volatile to move on.

Nothing is guaranteed or “better” than the other. You are only talking in hypotheticals. Hypothetically, a new regime comes along and Ryan plays like an MVP in the right system again and plays into his 40s. But hey, now if we wind up with THE top pick; however unlikely, in the event you actually realize this scenario then you cross the bridge when you get there.

As a fan, I have no control over the W/L. The team was giving away wins to start the season as it was. I’m not gonna pretend to have the answers. I can understand a consolation prize of getting a higher draft pick. History shows where you draft doesn’t really guarantee the best pick nor future team success.

That’s the facts.

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1 hour ago, the baptist said:

First "9-7 is better than top overall top picks" Not when it happens consistently, That's called obscurity

Second, In the scenario at the bottom, Matt Ryan only fits into the last scenario, because this franchise has spent the last dime on him and the offense, So If the glaring hole is at QB, which it is sitting at 1-5, how do you build around an overpaid aging QB?

Third if his post was unclear, he states it several times, I have stated it several times, The goal this offseason is to get the new future of this franchise, Pride can speak, but no heart in here truly believes that the Falcons have enough time on Matt Ryan's busted clock to build a Superbowl Contender 

If they drag themselves out of position to secure a future, I promise its another decade before this franchise gets a shot at the Superbowl, and some of you are comfortable with that reality, just to keep one player around.....smh

As I watch Kyler Murray show Arizona what the future holds, makes me sick.......

 

Two things if we draft a QB top five and move Ryan immediately we are still broke he has no mentor and as I just showed that has not produced the desired results for other franchises.  I just showed you the data of how these guys perform and the circumstances that make SB QBs and you made it about Ryan.   Youre so obsessed with getting rid of one guy you didn't even read a post about how to help the next guy.   Clearly for you this is more about getting him out then setting the next guy up for success.  Further evidence of that you compared him to Flacco and truly believe he is the biggest issue on our roster.  The guy is on pace for a MVP style season and yall are acting like he is playing at Trubisky level.  Is he regressing yes but the way you're spinning it the gu yes out there coatings wins ala Kurt Cousins and that is quite simply not the case.  What is costing us wins 30 plus points a game allowed.  No QB alive can fix that one.  The best thing for this franchises future is drafting BPA if we get Lawrence of Fields great but if we are truly a 2-14 class team prudence stands with protecting them till the time is right.  Do you want Mahomes/Rodgers ready made star or do you want a Luck style shortened career/a Harrington style fear of invisible DEs.  You build through the future by taking it easy on your young guys.  Kyler doing some impressive things but his team is a half game out of last place.  His team is still pedestrian and if that doesn't change. A few years we may be looking at another could have been guy.  You throw your guy to the wolves eventually it costs you.  Or he leaves because he's not getting the help he needs.  Again the problem with the argument is its a false dichotomy keeping Ryan doesn't have to be about winning right now.  And doesn't have to mean you can't look forward but intentionally failing in the hopes you get a guy who us perfect and that somehow all the other issues will go away because of 1 guy out of 53 is not planning for the future its planning to be the new Browns and picking a new franchise savior QB every 2 years for 2 decades.  

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Just jumped in (and I'm not going to read 9 pages of replies) but are there examples of tanking working? The most blatant example of tanking is what the Dolphins are doing but I don't see where fire sales have occurred, let alone worked. Smart drafting and sound personnel decisions will always be the best way to turn a team around.

With that being said, no player should be off limits to teams willing to trade. But love him or hate him, Matt Ryan is a quality starter and if the pick(s) we got for him didn't replace him with his eqivalent value, then we need to hold onto him. Same for Julio and everybody else. 

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