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Here are questions for the anti-tankers


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6 minutes ago, JayOzOne said:

Just jumped in (and I'm not going to read 9 pages of replies) but are there examples of tanking working? The most blatant example of tanking is what the Dolphins are doing but I don't see where fire sales have occurred, let alone worked. Smart drafting and sound personnel decisions will always be the best way to turn a team around.

With that being said, no player should be off limits to teams willing to trade. But love him or hate him, Matt Ryan is a quality starter and if the pick(s) we got for him didn't replace him with his eqivalent value, then we need to hold onto him. Same for Julio and everybody else. 

Watched every game of the Dolphins this year. They are definitely not tanking. 

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This topic has been done to death and no one is going to change their minds.

Doesn't invalidate anything I said. It's a freaking dead horse.

Tankers- Convinced that a rookie QB will come in and succeed in the NFL without any doubt Convinced that the Matt Ryan we saw yesterday is ready for retirement

4 minutes ago, JayOzOne said:

Just jumped in (and I'm not going to read 9 pages of replies) but are there examples of tanking working? The most blatant example of tanking is what the Dolphins are doing but I don't see where fire sales have occurred, let alone worked. Smart drafting and sound personnel decisions will always be the best way to turn a team around.

With that being said, no player should be off limits to teams willing to trade. But love him or hate him, Matt Ryan is a quality starter and if the pick(s) we got for him didn't replace him with his eqivalent value, then we need to hold onto him. Same for Julio and everybody else. 

Smart drafting and player personnel applies to any draft, whether someone wants the team to do bad for a high pick or not. If the team drafted Ryan, and he hasn't delivered during his prime, up 28-3, when the pieces were in place, why in the world given the circumstances that it will happen when he is older and regressing physically.

Tanking is the desire for team to bad enough to get the top pick rather than just failing and still being short of those top picks. No one believes any team will intentionally tank on behalf of the fans. It's wishful thinking based on a preference.

No coach wants to lose their job just like no player want to lose theirs. We know this.

As far as trades are concerned, the Falcons, and their fans probably value Ryan more than fans and front office of other teams. Who is going to pay a steep price for an older QB on the decline, especially in the form of draft picks? I could be wrong, but I doubt Ryan would go higher than a fourth round draft pick at this stage of his career. His best days are behind him, and the Falcons have nothing to leverage him with. 

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30 minutes ago, Sidecar Falcon said:

Watched every game of the Dolphins this year. They are definitely not tanking. 

Last year, they traded Minkah Fitzpatrick and Laremy Tunsil. Also Kenny Stills. They started out on a record tear, losing by a total of 163-26 in their first four games. Turns out, Flores is a good coach and they turned into a competitive squad that made 11 draft picks this year (including a future starter at QB and three likely OL starters). They made no qualms about their plan to tank but happen to be positioned to complete their foundational rebuild in three years instead of four or five.

But that's what I was saying. Is there an example of a team tanking and turning things around on a sustained level? Besides the early '90s Cowboys, I can't think of one.

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29 minutes ago, Intellectually Honest said:

Smart drafting and player personnel applies to any draft, whether someone wants the team to do bad for a high pick or not. If the team drafted Ryan, and he hasn't delivered during his prime, up 28-3, when the pieces were in place, why in the world given the circumstances that it will happen when he is older and regressing physically.

Tanking is the desire for team to bad enough to get the top pick rather than just failing and still being short of those top picks. No one believes any team will intentionally tank on behalf of the fans. It's wishful thinking based on a preference.

No coach wants to lose their job just like no player want to lose theirs. We know this.

As far as trades are concerned, the Falcons, and their fans probably value Ryan more than fans and front office of other teams. Who is going to pay a steep price for an older QB on the decline, especially in the form of draft picks? I could be wrong, but I doubt Ryan would go higher than a fourth round draft pick at this stage of his career. His best days are behind him, and the Falcons have nothing to leverage him with. 

Other than the '90s Cowboys, who tanked and hit it out of the park, I don't know of a team that pursued that strategy with success. If there's no history of it being used to fix a team, I have no expectation that it will work. Too much of team building is based on chance. Getting rid of Ryan because you think he's washed up only makes sense if you have a plan to replace him. You can't build/tear down a team on feels.

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12 hours ago, HASHBROWN3 said:

More intellectual dishonesty 

Notes:

- changes meaning of tank to “hope we suck”

- assumes we’ll “misrepresent what WE think” 😝

- only took until 2nd sentence to **** on MR

- undermines his own tank philosophy by admitting team won’t do it

- you’re a lazy thinker if you call him out

- ties MR appreciation to the “anti-tanking crowd”


-begs for team to suk so badly that, regardless of any correlation, MR will have to go. :D

- dreams of the season we get that SB birth/win with our new QB while averaging 6 wins.

- examines likelihood of MR getting us to promised land with yet another new regime & our studs retiring

- underhanded slap of those who support MR as being disloyal to team.  Sigh.

LMAO, another MR hate thread wrapped up in tanking disguise... nice!!

I will go point to point on this stupidity:

I am not changing my own position. Why in the world would I let someone else tell me what MY position is? So hash brown is being dishonest and wants to insist that abandoning a straw man is being dishonest when the reverse is true.

then he says I am assuming antitankers will misrepresent what other antitankers think. He has a reading comprehension problem. This goes back to antitankers strawmanning tankers. Not antitankers strawmanning other antitankers. Dude is high.

then he goes into paranoia mode and interprits what being said is sh$tting on Ryan. I can't fix his conspiratard theory.

Then he claims I am undermining my own philosphy when I never claimed the team would tank on my behalf in the first place. In other words he is desperate to go back to his straw man.

Then in his continued desperation acknowledges he will use an ad hom attack, though he hates that I won't put up with it.

Then he says I equate the antitanker crowd with the Matt Ryan train crowd. He finally got one right. Name one antitanker, who wants to replace Ryan for a rookie QB next year at or near the very top of the draft? I'll wait.

Then he says I ignore correlations to give Ryan the heave ho even though he acknowledged those correlations earlier by claiming I asked loaded questions. Are my questions loaded because I entail conditions favorable for a rookie QB, or I am not accounting for any? Dude doesn't know which path to take. He ignores Ryan will stop being a Falcon whether it's next year or in 5 years. The fact is he isnt playing for the Falcons forever. So the disagreement is when the appropriate time to cut him loose.

Then he is dumb enough to claim I dream of a season for the falcons to win 6 games and win a super bowl. Goes back to his poor reading comprehension when reading a simple hypothetical with 2 scenarios. The hypothetical was to phish if the antitankers agree that a Super Bowl win is more important than total wins within a 5 year time span. one scenario was with a 6 win average, not 6 wins in a season. Dude went brain dead. Nothing more.

Then he ignores the fact this team is most likely getting a new regime whether they stick with Ryan or not. ANd the fact the team will draft new players with Ryan or not. And Falcon players will retire if we stick with RYan or not. Nothing here is even remotely controversial. 

Then he responds to the final question about if the antitankers are more concerned with Ryan or for the team. Not every fan feels the same. Sorry If I don't assume that each fan of Ryan loves the team as much or more than him. Some fans, regardless of team, start rooting for a team for one specific player. It happens. It also doesn't imply disloyality either. WHich is a nonsequitur fallacy. It means you can love 2 things, but love one more than the other. 

Then he finally finished by revisiting his conspiratard theory. No wonder he is so emotional, that he and his other trolls think they are defending their terf from "haters" like myself. It's pure delusion.

Hashbrown isn't capable of critical thinking. He has dunning-krueger and his lack of awareness is causing him to believe he is smarter than he is, not to mention his paranoia is superseding any reasoning he might have.

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Intellectually Honest said:

I will go point to point on this stupidity:

I am not changing my own position. Why in the world would I let someone else tell me what MY position is? So hash brown is being dishonest and wants to insist that abandoning a straw man is being dishonest when the reverse is true.

then he says I am assuming antitankers will misrepresent what other antitankers think. He has a reading comprehension problem. This goes back to antitankers strawmanning tankers. Not antitankers strawmanning other antitankers. Dude is high.

then he goes into paranoia mode and interprits what being said is sh$tting on Ryan. I can't fix his conspiratard theory.

Then he claims I am undermining my own philosphy when I never claimed the team would tank on my behalf in the first place. In other words he is desperate to go back to his straw man.

Then in his continued desperation acknowledges he will use an ad hom attack, though he hates that I won't put up with it.

Then he says I equate the antitanker crowd with the Matt Ryan train crowd. He finally got one right. Name one antitanker, who wants to replace Ryan for a rookie QB next year at or near the very top of the draft? I'll wait.

Then he says I ignore correlations to give Ryan the heave ho even though he acknowledged those correlations earlier by claiming I asked loaded questions. Are my questions loaded because I entail conditions favorable for a rookie QB, or I am not accounting for any? Dude doesn't know which path to take. He ignores Ryan will stop being a Falcon whether it's next year or in 5 years. The fact is he isnt playing for the Falcons forever. So the disagreement is when the appropriate time to cut him loose.

Then he is dumb enough to claim I dream of a season for the falcons to win 6 games and win a super bowl. Goes back to his poor reading comprehension when reading a simple hypothetical with 2 scenarios. The hypothetical was to phish if the antitankers agree that a Super Bowl win is more important than total wins within a 5 year time span. one scenario was with a 6 win average, not 6 wins in a season. Dude went brain dead. Nothing more.

Then he ignores the fact this team is most likely getting a new regime whether they stick with Ryan or not. ANd the fact the team will draft new players with Ryan or not. And Falcon players will retire if we stick with RYan or not. Nothing here is even remotely controversial. 

Then he responds to the final question about if the antitankers are more concerned with Ryan or for the team. Not every fan feels the same. Sorry If I don't assume that each fan of Ryan loves the team as much or more than him. Some fans, regardless of team, start rooting for a team for one specific player. It happens. It also doesn't imply disloyality either. WHich is a nonsequitur fallacy. It means you can love 2 things, but love one more than the other. 

Then he finally finished by revisiting his conspiratard theory. No wonder he is so emotional, that he and his other trolls think they are defending their terf from "haters" like myself. It's pure delusion.

Hashbrown isn't capable of critical thinking. He has dunning-krueger and his lack of awareness is causing him to believe he is smarter than he is, not to mention his paranoia is superseding any reasoning he might have.

 

 

 

 

 

You sound like me. Not a good place to be in my estimation though... That’s honest. Good luck! Reads nice though. I guess..I .Look forward to sweating tomorrow.  Taking it on the chin baby. Humbling experience.  I can’t wait. Good luck to solving the “sporting” world. 

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1 hour ago, Intellectually Honest said:

I will go point to point on this stupidity:

I am not changing my own position. Why in the world would I let someone else tell me what MY position is? So hash brown is being dishonest and wants to insist that abandoning a straw man is being dishonest when the reverse is true.

then he says I am assuming antitankers will misrepresent what other antitankers think. He has a reading comprehension problem. This goes back to antitankers strawmanning tankers. Not antitankers strawmanning other antitankers. Dude is high.

then he goes into paranoia mode and interprits what being said is sh$tting on Ryan. I can't fix his conspiratard theory.

Then he claims I am undermining my own philosphy when I never claimed the team would tank on my behalf in the first place. In other words he is desperate to go back to his straw man.

Then in his continued desperation acknowledges he will use an ad hom attack, though he hates that I won't put up with it.

Then he says I equate the antitanker crowd with the Matt Ryan train crowd. He finally got one right. Name one antitanker, who wants to replace Ryan for a rookie QB next year at or near the very top of the draft? I'll wait.

Then he says I ignore correlations to give Ryan the heave ho even though he acknowledged those correlations earlier by claiming I asked loaded questions. Are my questions loaded because I entail conditions favorable for a rookie QB, or I am not accounting for any? Dude doesn't know which path to take. He ignores Ryan will stop being a Falcon whether it's next year or in 5 years. The fact is he isnt playing for the Falcons forever. So the disagreement is when the appropriate time to cut him loose.

Then he is dumb enough to claim I dream of a season for the falcons to win 6 games and win a super bowl. Goes back to his poor reading comprehension when reading a simple hypothetical with 2 scenarios. The hypothetical was to phish if the antitankers agree that a Super Bowl win is more important than total wins within a 5 year time span. one scenario was with a 6 win average, not 6 wins in a season. Dude went brain dead. Nothing more.

Then he ignores the fact this team is most likely getting a new regime whether they stick with Ryan or not. ANd the fact the team will draft new players with Ryan or not. And Falcon players will retire if we stick with RYan or not. Nothing here is even remotely controversial. 

Then he responds to the final question about if the antitankers are more concerned with Ryan or for the team. Not every fan feels the same. Sorry If I don't assume that each fan of Ryan loves the team as much or more than him. Some fans, regardless of team, start rooting for a team for one specific player. It happens. It also doesn't imply disloyality either. WHich is a nonsequitur fallacy. It means you can love 2 things, but love one more than the other. 

Then he finally finished by revisiting his conspiratard theory. No wonder he is so emotional, that he and his other trolls think they are defending their terf from "haters" like myself. It's pure delusion.

Hashbrown isn't capable of critical thinking. He has dunning-krueger and his lack of awareness is causing him to believe he is smarter than he is, not to mention his paranoia is superseding any reasoning he might have.

 

 

 

 

 

So IH waits all day long because he was trembling like a deer in headlights. Isn’t that just like a lay down quitter tanker?  Yes it is.

Don’t come limping back to my truthful post that lit you up looking for revenge after I slapped your pathetic argument down like the nonsense it truly is. I’ll stand by my original post. It’s haunted you all day & has you all ****** up again at this hour. :D

You are DENIED.  Take your beating like a man IH. You were owned all day long & your psychedelic frenzy of acid trip nonsense has everyone wondering if you’re doing some hard core drugs bro.

Lmao, just read your schizoid freak post above??? Yikes!  You sound like a desperate & defeated psychopath whose trying to come to grips with all those voices in his head. Clearly that will never happen . Geesh. 

Slithering back to my post because it just got all up under your skin & made you look stupid is not a good look for someone like you!   It shows defeat & weakness.
 

Sorry no sympathy here man. You should apologize for your lunacy right now. You wasted a lot of people’s time today bro. All kinds of wild rambling crap & Lo & behold, when it all boiled down to gravy it wasn’t enough to cover a chicken fried steak.  All you are is a MR hater tanker who hopes the team loses just like the lay down sissy you’ve always been.  Meh. 

 
 

 

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This thread is getting heated, but let me jump in as a member of the tanking team to share my two cents on the matter.

To me, Tanking isn't about deliberately losing; it's about prioritising other aspects of team building over winning, to better position the team for future success. Tanking is more effective in sports with smaller team sizes, but still can be a useful team-building tool even in football. At the core of tanking is the coach's decision to not put the best team on the field... Important to clarify that Players don't tank!!! Those are just losers. 

In my opinion you never tank when there is a chance to make the playoffs, no matter how far-fetched and you never tank for a specific draft pick. You normally see a lot of talk around tanking for a specific QB, but that also is dangerous and often unnecessary as there are always several players that can fill a gap... if we were in the market for a QB three years ago we could have been happy with Mahomes @ 10 or Watson @ 12, or in 2018 Lamar Jackson was picked @ 32. This is why Scouting is crucial.... People quickly forget that Mahomes wasn't even the first QB selected and Josh Rosen was also selected before Lamar... Tanking for a draft pick and drafting the right player are two totally different kettles of fish.

For us, if we're no longer in the running for a playoff spot then I'd go into full tank mode to get answers for next season... Like who should have a spot in my RB room? I'd sit Gurley to give Ito and Hill more reps to answer that question definitively. For the secondary, I'd look into making changes to see if there is anyone on the PS that could work and is hungry. 

Honestly though for us, this may be a lame duck year where answering those questions may be of little use as there'll be a new regime next season 

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1.   Matt Ryan is not the reason the Falcons are a crappy team.  The fault belongs squarely on the former head coach, Dan Quinn.  

2.  It is rare for a NFL team to reach the championship without a high-quality QB.  

3.  It is rare to be in a position to draft a QB that can be a franchise QB for the next decade.  IF this team performs so poorly that they get the opportunity to draft a future starting QB of that quality, they should draft him.

There is no point in labelling people for what is obvious and logical.  Some people still believe that the team can turn things around and make a strong showing in the play-offs.  Others do not.  

In all likelihood, the Falcons will be selecting from 8-13 in this next draft.  That means that Lawrence and Fields will be off the table.  In that case, the best defender or an OT will likely be our choice. 

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8 hours ago, JayOzOne said:

Last year, they traded Minkah Fitzpatrick and Laremy Tunsil. Also Kenny Stills. They started out on a record tear, losing by a total of 163-26 in their first four games. Turns out, Flores is a good coach and they turned into a competitive squad that made 11 draft picks this year (including a future starter at QB and three likely OL starters). They made no qualms about their plan to tank but happen to be positioned to complete their foundational rebuild in three years instead of four or five.

But that's what I was saying. Is there an example of a team tanking and turning things around on a sustained level? Besides the early '90s Cowboys, I can't think of one.

Dolphins are one of the few teams I didn’t see tank last year. They traded Minkah because he wasn’t buying into the system. Not to mention they could get a good pick for him. They also traded Tunsil because O’Brien is a moron and gave them WAY too much. They also played hard last season and for 5 wins. They play hard for Flores. The way it looks now, Dolphins could be selecting top 10 and may still sneak into the playoffs.

Stated earlier that no professional athlete tanks unless its point shaving or someone is taking a dive. There’s just too much pride in the sport nowadays. Especially with the way it affects your money and incentives.

That being said, “tanking” is more of an ideology held by fans. It’s the hope of a continuation of an already established downward trend of an organization. This is largely due to the drafting of the best possible players an organization could get.

Any amount of sustained success isn’t quantifiable in terms of a team consistently picking first/high. Most issues that result from that happening are on the coaching/FO.

I think the majority of us agree that Ryan is regressing. I saw it start happening two years ago, and when I pointed it out I was flamed. For some odd reason a lot of fans are more attached to players than they are s results. Ryan has been a good Quarterback for us. He brought us stability for years at QB.

With the way the league is going, and the potential nature our new Head Coach could have; may lead us to drafting his replacement next year. This isn’t a “Hate on Ryan.” comment. Just stating the nature of the business.

With the best college QB prospect to come out since Luck being an option, it stands to reason that fans would want us to just keep losing. Ryan’s timeframe here is short, and I don’t see us building a SB caliber team within that timeframe. QB is the hardest position to get down in the NFL. If you can take the prospect with the highest probability of success, that’s a good thing for the franchise for years to come. 

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2 hours ago, etherdome said:

1.   Matt Ryan is not the reason the Falcons are a crappy team.  The fault belongs squarely on the former head coach, Dan Quinn.  

2.  It is rare for a NFL team to reach the championship without a high-quality QB.  

3.  It is rare to be in a position to draft a QB that can be a franchise QB for the next decade.  IF this team performs so poorly that they get the opportunity to draft a future starting QB of that quality, they should draft him.

There is no point in labelling people for what is obvious and logical.  Some people still believe that the team can turn things around and make a strong showing in the play-offs.  Others do not.  

In all likelihood, the Falcons will be selecting from 8-13 in this next draft.  That means that Lawrence and Fields will be off the table.  In that case, the best defender or an OT will likely be our choice. 

1) I partially agree with that statement. Only based on the fact that nearly every player has underperformed this year, Ryan included. It’s hard to make up for coaching and scheme but there have been cognitive errors made by Ryan. So there is some blame that can rest on his shoulders and the rest of the teams’.

2) I’ve been trying to tell multiple people this. Whenever someone says something like “Look at what the Ravens/Buccaneers/Broncos did, they won a SB without a QB!”, I just laugh. All three of those teams have historic defenses. They are also constantly ranked as the best defenses of all time. We’d have a lot easier time finding a good QB than recreating a legendary defense.

3) Agreed 100%. There needs to be a contingency plan in place for Ryan. Way too many posters have this “Ride it until the wheels come off.” mentality. It is such a bad mentality to have, because once that car breaks down, you’re stuck out in the middle of nowhere. Last year I was flamed for suggesting we take Tua if he happened to fall to our pick because of his injury. Good God, you would have thought I slapped one of their kids.

At 8-11 both will be off the table. However I think that Lance may still be on the board. He’s my 2nd option if we can’t land Lawrence. Not a fan of Fields. 

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I'm not reading this whole thread but all I know is, if we're in a position to draft Lawrence we'd be foolish not to.  QB's like him don't come around every year and we can let him sit for 1 or 2 years under Ryan and build around both of them.  We won't be in a position to draft him or Fields though cause I think we'll win 3 games and that will probably be enough to knock us out of having any chance with either of them.

When you're 0-5 it's very easy to start thinking about the future and kinda hoping that the teams loses the rest of the games since there is no shot at anything this year, but like someone said, on game day it's impossible to root against them.  It just goes against human nature.

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6 hours ago, HASHBROWN3 said:

So IH waits all day long because he was trembling like a deer in headlights. Isn’t that just like a lay down quitter tanker?  Yes it is.

Don’t come limping back to my truthful post that lit you up looking for revenge after I slapped your pathetic argument down like the nonsense it truly is. I’ll stand by my original post. It’s haunted you all day & has you all ****** up again at this hour. :D

You are DENIED.  Take your beating like a man IH. You were owned all day long & your psychedelic frenzy of acid trip nonsense has everyone wondering if you’re doing some hard core drugs bro.

Lmao, just read your schizoid freak post above??? Yikes!  You sound like a desperate & defeated psychopath whose trying to come to grips with all those voices in his head. Clearly that will never happen . Geesh. 

Slithering back to my post because it just got all up under your skin & made you look stupid is not a good look for someone like you!   It shows defeat & weakness.
 

Sorry no sympathy here man. You should apologize for your lunacy right now. You wasted a lot of people’s time today bro. All kinds of wild rambling crap & Lo & behold, when it all boiled down to gravy it wasn’t enough to cover a chicken fried steak.  All you are is a MR hater tanker who hopes the team loses just like the lay down sissy you’ve always been.  Meh. 

 
 

 

Translation: "I am a paranoid conspiratard sociopath who thinks lying is honest. When I insist I am honest, it's so my merry band of trolls will be happy because I am insecure. I can't debate his position so I'll attack what he doesn't believe and pretend as if it is what he does. I have super taft street cred"

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I wish people would just leave this topic alone.

Look, this isn't the NBA where players can tank and still have job security. This is the NFL where no one has job security. So players aren't going to tank, coaches aren't going to tank. Atlanta is going to go down swinging like everyone else because everyone knows they might be calling their agent when the season ends. 

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