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2 minutes ago, AUTiger7222 said:

Nick Saban wanted Drew Brees in Miami and management wouldn't listen to him. Sean Payton was good enough as OC of the Giants to take a Kerry Collins led Giants offense to the Super Bowl. That counts for something.

That’s actually false. Nick Saban passed on Drew Brees because he didn’t pass his physical. Not to mention that there are reports that the Dolphins lowballed him on a contract. 

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Do not want. Tired of the Falcons hiring unproven coordinators that made their names riding the coattails of great head coaches. Look at Matt Nagy with the Bears. He was supposed to be great too. But

Yep...although I’d also be fine with a coordinator who clearly runs the offense or defense on their team and isn’t run through the HC’s system. 

Coat-tails how...He has been with Reid since 98 in Philly and worked his way up the letter. If anything Quinn was a coat tail coach. We need a mind like Bieniemy. We would keep building the OL and run

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15 minutes ago, lju713 said:

Go look at Mahomes post season interview. He said Bieniemy helps with the install and gameplan for the week. I sure he can call plays. Anybody is a better coach than Quinn. Race does play a part into it fellas. No african american owners. No GMs except 1. Also.how many black OC are they??? But race doesn't play a part. I will go out on a limb and say Bieniemy is a better HC than Riley Lincoln will be for the Falcons. We need a coach with a plan and a game plan and idea of how to use his players. What has Joe Judge proven that Bieniemy hasn't???

100% agree on Lincoln Riley.  I don't want him anywhere near this team honestly.

But I also don't think reservations about Bieniemy is unfounded, and certainly not based on race.  I don't agree with them, because to me he's a guy with a heavy input into the offensive side of the ball and he does call plays, it's just not his primary responsibility.    But I get the concern.  

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10 minutes ago, FloweryStump said:

I agree race may come into play in the part of owners, but it is not part of what I am talking about.  I said I'd like A. Lynn because he's experienced.  And everyone in the Chiefs building will say Bienemy deserves a chance... what would you expect them to say?  Beware coaches that get hired because of their success with elite quarterbacks.  Exhibit #A:  Adam Gase with Peyton Manning.

As talented as Mahomes is, he is not in the same league as pre call adjustments as Manning. Manning was essentially the QB/OC. It’s not a one for one. Mahomes isn’t calling his own plays. 

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1 minute ago, Sidecar Falcon said:

As talented as Mahomes is, he is not in the same league as pre call adjustments as Manning. Manning was essentially the QB/OC. It’s not a one for one. Mahomes isn’t calling his own plays. 

Agreed.  But half of Mahomes big plays isn't scheme... it is improv based on his amazing athletic and throwing abilities.  Its not what Bienemy (or even Andy) are drawing up.  To expect another QB to make that offense go like Mahomes does... good luck.  Chicago is learning that lesson right now with Nagy & Trubisky.

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On 9/21/2020 at 3:50 PM, FloweryStump said:

I agree race may come into play in the part of owners, but it is not part of what I am talking about.  I said I'd like A. Lynn because he's experienced.  And everyone in the Chiefs building will say Bienemy deserves a chance... what would you expect them to say?  Beware coaches that get hired because of their success with elite quarterbacks.  Exhibit #A:  Adam Gase with Peyton Manning.

Yup.....see Mike Holgrem and Joe Montana, Sean Payton with Tony Romo, Bruce Arians with Ben Roethlisberger...all those QB’s really suked when those OC guys got a HC gig.

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10 minutes ago, FloweryStump said:

I agree race may come into play in the part of owners, but it is not part of what I am talking about.  I said I'd like A. Lynn because he's experienced.  And everyone in the Chiefs building will say Bienemy deserves a chance... what would you expect them to say?  Beware coaches that get hired because of their success with elite quarterbacks.  Exhibit #A:  Adam Gase with Peyton Manning.

I agree bro. You right we can't drink the successful QB kool aid, but they did good with Alex Smith too. I just hope Bieniemy can bring that KC eye for talent to help build an offense that Matt flourish in for a year or 2.

Whoever we hire is gonna want their own QB eventually. This may be the year to get Matt's successor. Im not saying tank for Lawrence or Fields. Trey Lance is nice, but he is gonna need to go a scheme built for him, or get drafted and sit behind a vet for a yr. We would be perfect for that scenerio.

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2 minutes ago, lju713 said:

I agree bro. You right we can't drink the successful QB kool aid, but they did good with Alex Smith too. I just hope Bieniemy can bring that KC eye for talent to help build an offense that Matt flourish in for a year or 2.

Whoever we hire is gonna want their own QB eventually. This may be the year to get Matt's successor. Im not saying tank for Lawrence or Fields. Trey Lance is nice, but he is gonna need to go a scheme built for him, or get drafted and sit behind a vet for a yr. We would be perfect for that scenerio.

Go back further with Reid, and look at what happened in Philly when McNabb went down.  Another QB, usually someone no one had heard of, stepped in and they kept rolling.

He never won a Super Bowl there, for a lot of reasons.  But that offense is for real.  The system works.  And it's basically what we ran here under Shanahan.  Reid throws in a little more vertical stuff, but that's probably because he had McNabb all those years and he could really stretch the field.

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9 minutes ago, Vandy said:

Yup.....see Mike Holgrem and Joe Montana, Sean Payton with Tony Romo, Bruce Arians with Ben Roethlisberger...all those guys really suked when they got a HC gig.

Helps when you land in a place with Brett Favre and Drew Brees.  I can show you 5 times as many examples of it not working out as you can of it happening.  See:  every HC who came from New England under Belichick.  The most successful one is Bill O'Brien... how do you think he is doing?  He even has a true franchise QB and H-town can't wait to get rid of O'Brien.

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6 minutes ago, FloweryStump said:

Agreed.  But half of Mahomes big plays isn't scheme... it is improv based on his amazing athletic and throwing abilities.  Its not what Bienemy (or even Andy) are drawing up.  To expect another QB to make that offense go like Mahomes does... good luck.  Chicago is learning that lesson right now with Nagy & Trubisky.

I disagree that it isn’t scheme. His athletic ability allows him to extend plays and he has the physical tools to do things that other QBs can’t. You can’t relocate a Mahomes. 
 

However if you look at the surrounding pieces and how they are utilized, that is something well within his skill set and something that I feel Bienemy is having his hand in. 

I think it’s an unfair comparison between the Chiefs and Bears situation. Nagy wasn’t the one who traded up one spot to get Trubisky. That was a John Fox move. The Chiefs organization drafted Mahomes. They didn’t inherit him  

 

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29 minutes ago, FloweryStump said:

Helps when you land in a place with Brett Favre and Drew Brees.  I can show you 5 times as many examples of it not working out as you can of it happening.  See:  every HC who came from New England under Belichick.  The most successful one is Bill O'Brien... how do you think he is doing?  He even has a true franchise QB and H-town can't wait to get rid O'Brien.

Other than McDaniel, IMO those aren’t the same circumstances as EB. And I think even McDaniel was more him being just too immature to take on the leadership required of a HC at the time. 
 

My bigger push back is there’s no such thing as absolutes. You don’t penalize Bieniemy just because Some other assistants to successful head coaches have failed before. But everything else being equal, you want someone who has been groomed around success.

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1 minute ago, Sidecar Falcon said:

I disagree that it isn’t scheme. His athletic ability allows him to extend plays and he has the physical tools to do things that other QBs can’t. You can’t relocate a Mahomes. 
 

However if you look at the surrounding pieces and how they are utilized, that is something well within his skill set and something that I feel Bienemy is having his hand in. 

I think it’s an unfair comparison between the Chiefs and Bears situation. Nagy wasn’t the one who traded up one spot to get Trubisky. That was a John Fox move. The Chiefs organization drafted Mahomes. They didn’t inherit him  

 

John Fox did not even know about the move to go up one spot to get Trubisky.  That was the GM, Ryan Pace doing that and not even letting Fox know about it.  It is well documented.  And Nagy chose to go to Chicago to develop Trubisky.  The two developed a relationship at the NFL Combine and kept in touch afterwards, according to several media reports.  The best thing to happen to the Chiefs was Trubisky was not on the board when they chose Mahomes... who knows what would have happened if he was there.  Seems obvious now, but Trubisky was the top rated QB that year on nearly everyone's draft board.

 

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5 minutes ago, Vandy said:

Other than McDaniel, those aren’t the same thing as EB. And I think even McDaniel was more him being just too immature at the time. 
 

My bigger push back is there’s no such thing as absolutes. But everything else being equal, you get someone who has been groomed around success.

I 100% agree with that.  Pedigree and training matters.  But not at the expense of the individual traits of the coach.  In other words, I would take a guy would is a great communicator, articulate, well-organized, commands discipline, and who consistently had his unit in the Top 10 (or even top half of the League) with lesser talent, than a guy who is coaching Patrick Mahomes running around doing things nobody can coach with the top unit in the League, but lacks some of those other critical traits that are required to be an exceptional head coach.

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7 minutes ago, FloweryStump said:

I 100% agree with that.  Pedigree and training matters.  But not at the expense of the individual traits of the coach.  In other words, I would take a guy would is a great communicator, articulate, well-organized, commands discipline, and who consistently had his unit in the Top 10 (or even top half of the League) with lesser talent, than a guy who is coaching Patrick Mahomes running around doing things nobody can coach with the top unit in the League, but lacks some of those other critical traits that are required to be an exceptional head coach.

Same page.

Everything I know on Bienemy indicates he has those qualities/traits you mentioned.

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Just now, Vandy said:

Same page.

Everything I know on Bienemy indicates he has those qualities/traits. 

I don't see those same things from Bienemy as you do.  I see him coming across as unpolished in most of his media interviews and have heard criticisms that he has presented himself the same way when speaking about head coaching vacancies with owners and GMs.  Who knows if that is accurate, but I see him more as Adam Gase or Matt Patricia rather than Anthony Lynn or Sean McVay.

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56 minutes ago, AUTiger7222 said:

Nick Saban wanted Drew Brees in Miami and management wouldn't listen to him. Sean Payton was good enough as OC of the Giants to take a Kerry Collins led Giants offense to the Super Bowl. That counts for something.

Looks to me like EB was a good enough OC to help lead the Chiefs to a Super Bowl. You have to make up your mind. You can give one man credit, but not the other?

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14 minutes ago, FloweryStump said:

I don't see those same things from Bienemy as you do.  I see him coming across as unpolished in most of his media interviews and have heard criticisms that he has presented himself the same way when speaking about head coaching vacancies with owners and GMs.  Who knows if that is accurate, but I see him more as Adam Gase or Matt Patricia rather than Anthony Lynn or Sean McVay.

The simple fact that the train wreck giants passed on him says more about them than Bienemy, IMO. 
 

What his players and coaches say about him is what matters more to me. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ftw.usatoday.com/2020/02/chiefs-eric-bieniemy-interview-video-head-coach-jeff-allen-super-bowl/amp

https://www.google.com/amp/s/sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/andy-reid-eric-bieniemy-head-220229450.html

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36 minutes ago, JDaveG said:

Go back further with Reid, and look at what happened in Philly when McNabb went down.  Another QB, usually someone no one had heard of, stepped in and they kept rolling.

He never won a Super Bowl there, for a lot of reasons.  But that offense is for real.  The system works.  And it's basically what we ran here under Shanahan.  Reid throws in a little more vertical stuff, but that's probably because he had McNabb all those years and he could really stretch the field.

I never said Andy Reid's system doesn't work. It works. It's proven. It's worked for many many coaches and won many many Super Bowls. Eric Bienemy could certainly be the next Andy Reid/Mike Holmgren/Jon Gruden, whoever and carve out his own path as a long successful NFL Super Bowl winning coach.

I'm just sick of getting burned by hiring the unproven assistant because they talk a good game but there's no plan to bring it to reality. Honestly that's what it boils down to. I just don't have faith in Blank to pick the right guy thought. He has hired how many coaches and they all had the same fatal flaws. That's the biggest issue with this entire thing. Do you do trust Blank to make the right decision?

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4 minutes ago, Faithful Falcon said:

Looks to me like EB was a good enough OC to help lead the Chiefs to a Super Bowl. You have to make up your mind. You can give one man credit, but not the other?

That is reductionist thinking.  You are taking two very different situations that are complex, and reducing it down to one common theme without looking at the specifics of each situation and determining how much the coach influenced the outcome.  Granted, that is difficult for either of us to do from where we are sitting.

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8 minutes ago, Vandy said:

What do you think they are going to say in front of the cameras?  That is not good enough for me.  Go watch the videos of players praising Quinn when he came from Seattle.  Or Gus Bradley before he went to Jax.  There is a reason why several teams that have already interviewed him have passed on him, despite the success of his unit under Patrick Mahomes.

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5 minutes ago, FloweryStump said:

What do you think they are going to say in front of the cameras?  That is not good enough for me.  There is a reason why several teams that have already interviewed him have passed on him, despite the success of his unit under Patrick Mahomes.

So you trust what the train wreck giants organization impressions were over what his own players/Reid says? Ok.....

To each his own, but I put more weight into results. Heard enough coach-speak polished sound bites the last 3 years to last a lifetime.

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1 hour ago, JDaveG said:

I was sold on Stefanski early last season.  He did something I found remarkable and wondered why we don't do it.  He showed up as the OC in Minny and said "we're going to run this one concept in practice, over, and over, and over, until it's second nature."  That concept was the wide zone run.  He told them "the entire offense works off of this, so you have to have it down."

They got it down.  And while they did not have an historic season or win the Super Bowl, they were a lot better than anyone thought they'd be.  Because they had an identity and the identity is proven and it works.

Put a WCO passing attack over the top of it and you have the stuff Super Bowls are made of.  

Granted, it isn't that easy or everyone would do it.  But the fortitude to believe in it that much and do it that way -- the great OCs know what they do works and they force you to do it.  That's why there's tension when they come in.  Us in 2015.  Aaron Rodgers last season.  But once the players realize it works, they buy in and that, my friends, is where magic happens.  Not because the system is so great.  But because the belief in the system engenders trust.

Same on defense, but I don't want another defensive coach, so......

The Vikings had 7 games last year under Stefanski where they scored 20 or fewer points. They only reached 30 points 5 times. The Vikings did not have a good offense last year under Stefanski.

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6 minutes ago, Vandy said:

So you trust what the train wreck giants organization impressions were over what his players/Reid says? Ok.....

I am not sure what you're trying to say here.  But what I am saying is, no, I don't fully trust what any player or coach says to the media about another player or coach.  Because they are trained to give that response.  It would only be a very small part of my evaluation of a coach.  I want to see the coach in question deliver his own message, show poise and consistency, display intelligence.   I want to see those things for myself... not just the stereotyped, rubber-stamped media answer the others in his building will undoubtedly give him.  

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How many more offensive systems are you going to put Ryan and Julio in? That’s the question that has to be asked first. Teams with long term success have continuity at OC... and as much as I can’t stand Koetter, I’m not sure I want Ryan and company to start over again in year 14 (for Ryan). I think you tinker as little as possible with the offense right now, hire a Leader of Men over some supposed guru of any type and let them choose their d coordinator and run THEIR scheme. We’re always square peg/round hole here. 
 

That is unless you approach the off-season with a blow-it-up mentality by shopping Ryan and Julio 

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