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On 7/31/2020 at 7:41 PM, SPITFIRE said:

Where is the space ? 

 

clip.jpg

 

On 7/31/2020 at 10:26 PM, SPITFIRE said:

I know how averages work, however when presented with the situation that the OP mentioned which is that is a db is +7 off the line that the quick slant is automatically  open well that is just not true. Its more nuanced than this thread implies. 

There's more than just a slant that can be run successfully from this play. Even if you say the slant is off the table with this play a quick out route picks up 5 or 6 easy yards. Also when the corner is playing that far off you can eventually set up the stop and go on him by completing a few short passes to Ridley because the corner will then try to jump it and you beat him over the top with the stop and go.

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6 hours ago, papachaz said:

dude, don't waste your time with a relative newbie who feels he needs to prove something. You post an article about a 7.4 yard average, and dude goes out and searches for a play, one of many I'm sure, that WASN'T that much cushion, to try to sound like he's the smartest dude here. He needs to go search some PMF threads and he'll quickly learn he's as amateur as most of the rest of us  ;)

 

Noob ? I have been here almost 10 years. I dont post much because I am a coach, i also didnt search much because this was the first game... in game pass. I am not trying to prove anything other than football is not as simple as you and some of these members try and make it out to be. there is way more involved in coverages in modern defenses than to say if he has x amount of cushion easy run a quick slant. No worries though I wont post anymore enjoy your madden strats. 

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5 hours ago, SPITFIRE said:

Noob ? I have been here almost 10 years. I dont post much because I am a coach, i also didnt search much because this was the first game... in game pass. I am not trying to prove anything other than football is not as simple as you and some of these members try and make it out to be. there is way more involved in coverages in modern defenses than to say if he has x amount of cushion easy run a quick slant. No worries though I wont post anymore enjoy your madden strats. 

You’re good, bro.  I like different opinions...but if you don’t think there is a way to make use of over 7 yards of cushion, we will agree to disagree.  Doesn’t mean I am right, though.

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6 hours ago, SPITFIRE said:

Noob ? I have been here almost 10 years. I dont post much because I am a coach, i also didnt search much because this was the first game... in game pass. I am not trying to prove anything other than football is not as simple as you and some of these members try and make it out to be. there is way more involved in coverages in modern defenses than to say if he has x amount of cushion easy run a quick slant. No worries though I wont post anymore enjoy your madden strats. 

you have a low number of posts, so yeah, it APPEARS you're relatively new. Just about everyone shows up as a member since 1969 or some foolishness.

 

also, where in there did I say anything about the game of football being simple? where in the OP is there ANYTHING that tries to say the game of football is simple? it DOESN'T, it's merely a statistic, and has already been pointed out to you, ONE PLAY makes a stat of 100%.....I would pretty much bet the farm the folks that put those stats together didn't just use one play. I would guess they might have even looked at every play from every game he played in last year.

so you're a coach??? LOL ok, I'm a brain surgeon, computer technician, do a little bit of rocket science on the side. Oh, and I build corn hole boards....(2 of those are actually true, I'll let you guess). one thing I have NEVER done is play madden, never owned it, never played it, don't even own a game system. 

so 'coach' go work on your reading comprehension, I hear there's a book out for that....(if you don't see the amusing irony in that joke there's no hope for you) because again, the OP said, and I quote "seems like an easy way to get free yardage"  key part there being 'seems like". So then you come in with your 'I'm a coach and these people are morons if they think the game is easy so I'll straighten them out' ego and basically come off like just another message board know-it-all. 

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3 hours ago, papachaz said:

you have a low number of posts, so yeah, it APPEARS you're relatively new. Just about everyone shows up as a member since 1969 or some foolishness.

 

also, where in there did I say anything about the game of football being simple? where in the OP is there ANYTHING that tries to say the game of football is simple? it DOESN'T, it's merely a statistic, and has already been pointed out to you, ONE PLAY makes a stat of 100%.....I would pretty much bet the farm the folks that put those stats together didn't just use one play. I would guess they might have even looked at every play from every game he played in last year.

so you're a coach??? LOL ok, I'm a brain surgeon, computer technician, do a little bit of rocket science on the side. Oh, and I build corn hole boards....(2 of those are actually true, I'll let you guess). one thing I have NEVER done is play madden, never owned it, never played it, don't even own a game system. 

so 'coach' go work on your reading comprehension, I hear there's a book out for that....(if you don't see the amusing irony in that joke there's no hope for you) because again, the OP said, and I quote "seems like an easy way to get free yardage"  key part there being 'seems like". So then you come in with your 'I'm a coach and these people are morons if they think the game is easy so I'll straighten them out' ego and basically come off like just another message board know-it-all. 

Lets try this again since you seem to be pretty smooth brained, 

"Next Gen has an interesting stat on Ridley.  In 2019 he led the NFL in Average Cushion at the snap.  He was given an eye popping 7.3 yards of cushion, on average, each snap.  Would really love to see Koetter exploit this by getting Ridley some quick slants etc....seems like an easy way to get free yardage and force the DB’s closer to the LOS.  Then hit em over the top "

There is nothing wrong with this statement, however the implication is that the cushion given by the corner is exploitable. This is is because for some reason everyone assumes things are as simple as man coverage or zone coverage.  If the Op saw something or knows something that can exploit this that I cannot see I want to know. Therefore I challenged his presumption. This is how adults learn and grow through disagreements. If the Op can show me how this can be exploited I can take this same learning back to the field and I become better because of it. I am only here to discuss football and improve in seeing the game and share with fans for the team I love. If you are not even allowed to challenge a OP to show concrete examples when talking ball then what is even the ******* point of being on this form ? You want to sit around and circle jerk analytics instead of using the insight to learn from it cool. Do your thing , i guess it is my fault for wanting to have a deeper discussion about the analytics. Carry on dude ******* basket case flying off the handle because someone challenges the Op's assumption.

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3 hours ago, FalconsIn2012 said:

You’re good, bro.  I like different opinions...but if you don’t think there is a way to make use of over 7 yards of cushion, we will agree to disagree.  Doesn’t mean I am right, though.

I just asked you to show me, I pulled that clip because that is the same base defense I run and it is the same yardage cushion mentioned in the Op but im irritated now so **** it. Maybe when football starts we can actually talk ball without people getting in their feelings. 

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Here is just a thought for you.  Most NFL "running" players can cover 10 yards in about 1 second.  Most of them take a little more than 10 seconds to run the length of the field.  Obviously, the first 10 yards will take the longest time.  Once up to speed, they cover 10 yards in less than a second.  Some will slow before completing the 100 yards. 

A db playing 7 yards off a receiver is going to need to do several things when the ball is snapped.  A smart receiver will sell the medium or long pass by bursting off the line and looking downfield.  The db must react.  If the pass is a slant, he is going the wrong way.  The receiver cuts.  An athletic db needs only one step to stop his motion and move toward the receiver.  He now must accelerate to the receiver.  He is an undetermined distance away.  Did he maintain the 7 yard cushion or shorten or lengthen it?  Any of those could happen based on his belief of what the receiver is trying to do.  If he is 7 yards away, he is probably close to 1 second from the receiver.  If the route was a slant, the db does have some angle advantage.  The throw, including QB adjustment, throw, air time, and securing the ball probably takes around 1 second.  Obviously, I cannot validate these times, I am just guessing based on what my eyes tell me.  Now, was the receiver hit in stride with the ball coming into his hands or did he need to adjust.  If no adjustment was necessary, the db is in trouble unless there is help nearby.  If he is quick, he can use the angle advantage created by the slant route to get there in about 1 second.  But, that represents a 10 yard gain. 

The best way to defend the slant is to run right next to the receiver.  You do not want to give a 7 yard cushion and then close.  You are going the wrong way if the route is not a slant, curl, or sideline.  You need to line up close and bump the receiver withing the allowed 5 yards and then turn with him and stick to him like glue.  That often requires some illegal tactics that are rarely flagged.

So, why give a 7 yard cushion?  If you are on a fast receiver you need your teammates and your captain to know that.  You need to control the short stuff and work in tandem with other defenders to defend the medium and long routes.  Providing a 7 yard cushion allows you to keep the receiver in view and allows you to run to the receiver if he is thrown to.  It is not an ideal situation for a defense. 

So, what is the point?  I do not care who on here is a coach, professional, ex-NFL player, wise old fan, or newbie.  Announcing you are a coach gets you no credibility with me.  I played the game and had good coaches, idiot coaches, alcoholic coaches, temporary coaches, and ever teachers who knew nothing about football but took the vacant coaching position for the money.  A 7 yard cushion matters.  The laws of physics do work on football fields.  So, please drop the "I am a coach" as part of your debate.  There are a lot of guys on here who know football.  Some are from the wise old fan group who have seen enough to know what they are looking at.  And, there are plenty of guys on here who have played and coached and know how this game works. 

Sorry for the rant.  There was something about the "I am a coach" thing that just pizzed me off.  

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16 minutes ago, NaGaBoy said:

Here is just a thought for you.  Most NFL "running" players can cover 10 yards in about 1 second.  Most of them take a little more than 10 seconds to run the length of the field.  Obviously, the first 10 yards will take the longest time.  Once up to speed, they cover 10 yards in less than a second.  Some will slow before completing the 100 yards. 

A db playing 7 yards off a receiver is going to need to do several things when the ball is snapped.  A smart receiver will sell the medium or long pass by bursting off the line and looking downfield.  The db must react.  If the pass is a slant, he is going the wrong way.  The receiver cuts.  An athletic db needs only one step to stop his motion and move toward the receiver.  He now must accelerate to the receiver.  He is an undetermined distance away.  Did he maintain the 7 yard cushion or shorten or lengthen it?  Any of those could happen based on his belief of what the receiver is trying to do.  If he is 7 yards away, he is probably close to 1 second from the receiver.  If the route was a slant, the db does have some angle advantage.  The throw, including QB adjustment, throw, air time, and securing the ball probably takes around 1 second.  Obviously, I cannot validate these times, I am just guessing based on what my eyes tell me.  Now, was the receiver hit in stride with the ball coming into his hands or did he need to adjust.  If no adjustment was necessary, the db is in trouble unless there is help nearby.  If he is quick, he can use the angle advantage created by the slant route to get there in about 1 second.  But, that represents a 10 yard gain. 

The best way to defend the slant is to run right next to the receiver.  You do not want to give a 7 yard cushion and then close.  You are going the wrong way if the route is not a slant, curl, or sideline.  You need to line up close and bump the receiver withing the allowed 5 yards and then turn with him and stick to him like glue.  That often requires some illegal tactics that are rarely flagged.

So, why give a 7 yard cushion?  If you are on a fast receiver you need your teammates and your captain to know that.  You need to control the short stuff and work in tandem with other defenders to defend the medium and long routes.  Providing a 7 yard cushion allows you to keep the receiver in view and allows you to run to the receiver if he is thrown to.  It is not an ideal situation for a defense. 

So, what is the point?  I do not care who on here is a coach, professional, ex-NFL player, wise old fan, or newbie.  Announcing you are a coach gets you no credibility with me.  I played the game and had good coaches, idiot coaches, alcoholic coaches, temporary coaches, and ever teachers who knew nothing about football but took the vacant coaching position for the money.  A 7 yard cushion matters.  The laws of physics do work on football fields.  So, please drop the "I am a coach" as part of your debate.  There are a lot of guys on here who know football.  Some are from the wise old fan group who have seen enough to know what they are looking at.  And, there are plenty of guys on here who have played and coached and know how this game works. 

Sorry for the rant.  There was something about the "I am a coach" thing that just pizzed me off.  

Again, it was not to gain credibility it was to explain my low post count i dont need to prove or gain credibility from anyone on this forum. Second We been over your point you are assuming that 7 yard cushion is man coverage.  You have a Safety sitting in a flat read and a ILB under . Why dont you people try reading before jumping on the "he thinks he knows it all train" . 

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12 minutes ago, SPITFIRE said:

Again, it was not to gain credibility it was to explain my low post count i dont need to prove or gain credibility from anyone on this forum. Second We been over your point you are assuming that 7 yard cushion is man coverage.  You have a Safety sitting in a flat read and a ILB under . Why dont you people try reading before jumping on the "he thinks he knows it all train" . 

No, I did not assume man coverage.  A 7 yard cushion can be given in man, zone, and other schemes.  Before the ball starts moving downfield, a db is required to cover a man or area.  The coverage responsibility may change as the play develops.  In either case, once the ball is in a receivers hands, a db drops his primary responsibility.  At that time, he is required to either get to the ball or prevent escape into a specific area of responsibility. 

If a short slant is thrown, it does not matter what scheme the defense was in.  That db who is closest to the receiver is the defender with primary responsibility to get that receiver on the ground.

No matter what the coverage is, the defenders position, measured in time or distance, is critical.  I did read before posting.  You implied the distance is unimportant.  You implied the 7 yard cushion cannot be exploited by the offense.  Of course, it can.  I think you should read your posts before suggesting that others read them.

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10 minutes ago, NaGaBoy said:

No, I did not assume man coverage.  A 7 yard cushion can be given in man, zone, and other schemes.  Before the ball starts moving downfield, a db is required to cover a man or area.  The coverage responsibility may change as the play develops.  In either case, once the ball is in a receivers hands, a db drops his primary responsibility.  At that time, he is required to either get to the ball or prevent escape into a specific area of responsibility. 

If a short slant is thrown, it does not matter what scheme the defense was in.  That db who is closest to the receiver is the defender with primary responsibility to get that receiver on the ground.

No matter what the coverage is, the defenders position, measured in time or distance, is critical.  I did read before posting.  You implied the distance is unimportant.  You implied the 7 yard cushion cannot be exploited by the offense.  Of course, it can.  I think you should read your posts before suggesting that others read them.

The alignment of this defense suggest quarters, that inside linebacker and that safety will have responsibility over the quick game passing.  The alignment and cushion of the defense will indicate to the qb what the coverage is, I did not imply the distance is not important but in relation to the slant  or any route under 7rds that db with the cushion of < 7 does not have the responsibility of protecting against the slant. Of course when the ball is in the receivers hands they will chase, of course when the ball is in the air assignments no longer matter. The initial alignment of this defense does not indicate that a slant will be available. The over arching point is that you cannot use 1 metric and one players alignment as the sole determining factor of what is available and what is not.  If you see something else in the example clip that will cause the slant to be open please share. 

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5 hours ago, FalconsIn2012 said:

You’re good, bro.  I like different opinions...but if you don’t think there is a way to make use of over 7 yards of cushion, we will agree to disagree.  Doesn’t mean I am right, though.

Let me also apologize to you, I didnt mean to hyjack your thread or start a **** throwing war. I am just eager to talk football x' and o's . If it came off like I am just telling you  that you are wrong I am sorry. 

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20 hours ago, AUTiger7222 said:

There's more than just a slant that can be run successfully from this play. Even if you say the slant is off the table with this play a quick out route picks up 5 or 6 easy yards. Also when the corner is playing that far off you can eventually set up the stop and go on him by completing a few short passes to Ridley because the corner will then try to jump it and you beat him over the top with the stop and go.

@SPITFIRE I'm eager to talk X's and O's so let's talk X's and O's by responding to this.

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22 hours ago SPITFIRE said,

There is nothing wrong with this statement, however the implication is that the cushion given by the corner is exploitable. This is is because for some reason everyone assumes things are as simple as man coverage or zone coverage.  If the Op saw something or knows something that can exploit this that I cannot see I want to know. Therefore I challenged his presumption.

Quote

 

Quote

20 hours ago SPITFIRE said,

The alignment and cushion of the defense will indicate to the qb what the coverage is, I did not imply the distance is not important but in relation to the slant  or any route under 7rds that db with the cushion of < 7 does not have the responsibility of protecting against the slant.

The next closest guy is 12 yards away, the next 12, and then the distances get much greater.  I guess your argument is that a 12 yard cushion is not anything an offense can take advantage of.  If distance is important and the safety has to cover the slant, we are starting with a 12 yard cushion.  Are you saying an offense cannot exploit this?

Also, you are assuming the corner is not in man.  With that much cushion and the safety looking at the QB, I think there is a good chance that corner is in man.  Of course, the safety is likely in zone.  I would have to see the play run to know.

BTW, if a slant, out, or curl is thrown, the defense called is pretty much academic.  The corner and safety will be racing to get to the receiver and they are some distance away before the ball is snapped. 

Whether in man or other defense, If a slant is run and the pass is completed, this is an automatic 5 yard gain.  If they are in zone and that safety does not recognize the slant is going to Ridley before the ball is released, and the pass is completed, this is likely a 10 yard gain.  I have played enough and watched enough to know this.  But, feel free to tell me how I have oversimplified the game.

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