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On 4/5/2020 at 4:14 PM, kiwifalcon said:

Neal doesn’t need to put on any weight man.

He will lose what agility he has I’d play him at LBer right now at that weight he is now.

Still starting SS for me if fit enough.Tone setter we need guys like Neal,drop Rico into NB draft Winfield Jnr and we rolling.

Not many RBs are going to go through Neal he’ll cut them in half.

I'd rather have coverage Safeties that can make the sure open-field tackle.  

The days of "setting the tone" in the secondary are being phased out by the league.  Unfortunately, that trait/talent is of little use to us now.  Many of us with miss the big hits, but the reality is that the league has to protect (or appear to protect) its players from Traumatic Brain Injuries.  

The days of Ronnie Lott, Brian Dawkins, Jack Tatum, Steve Atwater, and Scott Case are coming to an end.   

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Get this kid and move Allen to the slot.    

I’ve been saying for years. It’s just time to cut crap

Not a huge fan of Kazee but this guy saying he's a strong safety is off his rocker. Dude is just a backup with good hands. Serviceable in Cover 2. Was terrible at nickel. Glad the guy's at least

On 4/5/2020 at 9:59 PM, DonOfThemBirds said:

 

Yeah, but Jimmy Johnson has always been one of the most underrated great football minds. Glad to finally see him in the HOF.

 

 

.......while Jerruh tries to take all the credit.

Jimmy was a genius as a personnel man.  

I wonder if he would have sustained that ability.  He benefitted from his recent stint as a college HC.  He knew a lot of the prospects coming into the league, from the time they were high schoolers.  

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14 minutes ago, etherdome said:

Jimmy was a genius as a personnel man.  

I wonder if he would have sustained that ability.  He benefitted from his recent stint as a college HC.  He knew a lot of the prospects coming into the league, from the time they were high schoolers.  

Yeah. Exactly how DQ hit on signing Poole after the draft. I can only imagine how Keanu would be if he stayed healthy. And now Fowler 

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Winfield in a 2 deep system will be great. Winfield in a single deep that needs to be able to cover the whole field on the back end not so much. If I was going free safety early in this draft Delpit is the perfect match for our system.

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1 hour ago, etherdome said:

Jimmy was a genius as a personnel man.  

I wonder if he would have sustained that ability.  He benefitted from his recent stint as a college HC.  He knew a lot of the prospects coming into the league, from the time they were high schoolers.  

 

Jimmy had an eye for talent, that just don't go away.

 

Jerry Jones started thinking he was the great football mind and became a control freak, which led to the rift that cause Jimmy to quit.

 

Jimmy Johnson didn't do so well as the Dolphins HC. Internally, he and Marino didn't see eye to eye and they didn't get along well. I also think the ownership played a role in favoring towards Marino over Jimmy. Jimmy got burned out and pretty much went into retirement and joined FOX.

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On 4/5/2020 at 1:45 PM, jazzyburrell said:

I actually think Rico’s best fit for us Is Nickel!

I agree and also like him as the 3rd and long strong safety. I thought him taking over for keanu was really impactful. I think his limited range worked better for him covering half of the field or less and allowed him to make more plays on the ball than at single high. 

We definitely need a true free safety moving forward. I really don't know what kazee is honestly. Maybe he puts it all together next year because he has gone from Manuel to Raheem Morris and that secondary coach that resigned. I'm not sure he has had time to get settled in to a real role. Hopefully Morris can help him put it together to be worth a roster spot. 

I hope we select a free safety in the 1st and maybe another a 3rd day prospect that can push kazee for that back up spot. 

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9 hours ago, Stryka said:

I really like him but then you have a dearth at CB and a surplus at S if keke is healthy. When does he play? Meanwhile we have 2 below average young guys playing elite WRs week in and out. If Winfield can be had in the 2nd. I’m cool. In the first. Nah. More pressing needs. 

At this point in time if we drafted Winfield Jnr I’d play Neal at WLBer.

Reason I want him the most is he gives us what Kazee has but with better instincts and more speed.Cn cover both safety spots and NB the boundary and WLBer in a pinch.I think he’s the most complete safety in the draft with NFL pedigree to boot.

I’d have him at 16.

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6 hours ago, Sobeit said:

Winfield in a 2 deep system will be great. Winfield in a single deep that needs to be able to cover the whole field on the back end not so much. If I was going free safety early in this draft Delpit is the perfect match for our system.

Winfield Jnr no good in a single high why not please explain.

The mentioned has some of the best instincts in of any of these guys playing the position he recovers and tackles well how is it he would be ineffective in a single high scheme.You lost me at that because every bit of film I’ve seen of him he’d fit fine in any scheme.

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I think our S position is a question mark with Neal going down twice. 

There are a lot of Rico apologists on these boards.  I understand why, because you cannot teach that kind of leadership.

Having said that, we need to upgrade this year & I hope we do.

I remain a big fan of Kazee to this day.  You can look far & wide and not find a guy who has a better knack for the turnover.

Now I def preface that by saying he absolutely MUST take his mental game to the next level to help this team.  That includes those missed assignments & unnecessary boneheaded strikes.  But I don't want him to lose that fire he has to click & fly down hill for a nice tackle..  Just try to break down some b4 contact.

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13 minutes ago, HASHBROWN3 said:

I think our S position is a question mark with Neal going down twice. 

There are a lot of Rico apologists on these boards.  I understand why, because you cannot teach that kind of leadership.

Having said that, we need to upgrade this year & I hope we do.

I remain a big fan of Kazee to this day.  You can look far & wide and not find a guy who has a better knack for the turnover.

Now I def preface that by saying he absolutely MUST take his mental game to the next level to help this team.  That includes those missed assignments & unnecessary boneheaded strikes.  But I don't want him to lose that fire he has to click & fly down hill for a nice tackle..  Just try to break down some b4 contact.

Of those Kazee INTs, how many are him making the play and how many are deflections/right place right time plays that any S could make? It's just like look at Vic and his sacks after 2016 and nothing else. 

Kazee is a useful player, but I'm not overweighing his turnovers. The rest of what you said is the biggest issue with him back deep. Make him a robber, and he'd be a pest. 

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9 hours ago, Sobeit said:

Winfield in a 2 deep system will be great. Winfield in a single deep that needs to be able to cover the whole field on the back end not so much. If I was going free safety early in this draft Delpit is the perfect match for our system.

? Winfield can play any position in the secondary. There's nothing that Delpit does Winfield cant. No idea why you think he can't play single high. Has instincts, speed, and hands.

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1 hour ago, vel said:

Of those Kazee INTs, how many are him making the play and how many are deflections/right place right time plays that any S could make? It's just like look at Vic and his sacks after 2016 and nothing else. 

Kazee is a useful player, but I'm not overweighing his turnovers. The rest of what you said is the biggest issue with him back deep. Make him a robber, and he'd be a pest. 

It's no fluke man, he had like 15 picks in college, showed out as a rookie in camp & preseason games, led the nfl in picks.  

He's been a playmaker from the gitgo on a falcon's team whose been desperate for playmakers.  Sure he has work to do mentally.  If he can eliminate the mental errors, (he's got to improve here), he can be quite an asset.

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29 minutes ago, HASHBROWN3 said:

It's no fluke man, he had like 15 picks in college, showed out as a rookie in camp & preseason games, led the nfl in picks.  

He's been a playmaker from the gitgo on a falcon's team whose been desperate for playmakers.  Sure he has work to do mentally.  If he can eliminate the mental errors, (he's got to improve here), he can be quite an asset.

He wasn't a safety in college. Not saying he can't be an asset. But he's not a deep FS. Robber, nickel, or third safety and let him roll. That's what they tried to do to begin the year. I anticipate that coming back. 

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Here's an example of what I'm talking about with Kazee:

RPO with the slot running a quick slant. A pretty common look for offenses. Nothing exotic at all. Given the direction of the run, his alley to fit the run and Kittle are along the same path. So he should be pulling his trigger here regardless. He's slow to pull his trigger in either the run fit or to read the pass. As a result, he's stuck in no man's land. To see this, look at where he lines up. Fifteen yards off the ball at the ten yard line. The ball is snapped, he drops a couple yards, then is squared back up at the ten yard line. The entire play has happened and he hasn't made any progress forward. That's providing no help to the defense. Then, because it's Kittle, he's lost his any advantage of surprise to cut him down, magnifying his size disadvantage. Of course nobody expects Kittle to go down 1v1 vs a 5'9 180lb FS. Never happening. Play goes for 16 yards. 

Now, compare that with the following play:

Same play. Same deep alignment (~15 yards). Same angle. But instead of waiting, Delpit triggers immediately and is a heat seeking missile. He meets Jeudy around the 8 yard mark, striking right in the gut before he even has a chance to think about moving out of the way. It's an incompletion with a statement hit made. The middle of the field is not open. Period. If Delpit hesitated and reacted the same way as Kazee, Jeudy has a lane to keep running and pick up a quick 10-15 yards. But he doesn't hesitate. 

These are the kinds of plays a top safety makes. Kazee is average at best. But it's plays like these that will forever minimize the ceiling of the defense. Here's another example:

Baker-INT.gif

It's a matter of films study and trusting what you see and pulling the trigger. These plays don't show up as stats and most think they're routine. But they aren't. 

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21 minutes ago, vel said:

Here's an example of what I'm talking about with Kazee:

RPO with the slot running a quick slant. A pretty common look for offenses. Nothing exotic at all. Given the direction of the run, his alley to fit the run and Kittle are along the same path. So he should be pulling his trigger here regardless. He's slow to pull his trigger in either the run fit or to read the pass. As a result, he's stuck in no man's land. To see this, look at where he lines up. Fifteen yards off the ball at the ten yard line. The ball is snapped, he drops a couple yards, then is squared back up at the ten yard line. The entire play has happened and he hasn't made any progress forward. That's providing no help to the defense. Then, because it's Kittle, he's lost his any advantage of surprise to cut him down, magnifying his size disadvantage. Of course nobody expects Kittle to go down 1v1 vs a 5'9 180lb FS. Never happening. Play goes for 16 yards. 

Now, compare that with the following play:

Same play. Same deep alignment (~15 yards). Same angle. But instead of waiting, Delpit triggers immediately and is a heat seeking missile. He meets Jeudy around the 8 yard mark, striking right in the gut before he even has a chance to think about moving out of the way. It's an incompletion with a statement hit made. The middle of the field is not open. Period. If Delpit hesitated and reacted the same way as Kazee, Jeudy has a lane to keep running and pick up a quick 10-15 yards. But he doesn't hesitate. 

These are the kinds of plays a top safety makes. Kazee is average at best. But it's plays like these that will forever minimize the ceiling of the defense. Here's another example:

Baker-INT.gif

It's a matter of films study and trusting what you see and pulling the trigger. These plays don't show up as stats and most think they're routine. But they aren't. 

This is why I want Delpit so much at 16... he will transform our back end a lot... for me he will impact the defense like no other Defensive Player al 16... 

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Vel, sure he missed a few tackles but he made a bunch too.  Some impressive ones.  You cannot look at things in a vacuum.

He was 2nd on the team in tackles in 2018 & 4th on the team in 2019.  

I'm not a Kazee apologist but i love his nose for the ball & playmaking ability.  I want him to grow as a player not be dumped.  Who knows man, I could be wrong but for some reason I have alway liked him since his ridiculous college production as a playmaker.

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1 hour ago, HASHBROWN3 said:

Vel, sure he missed a few tackles but he made a bunch too.  Some impressive ones.  You cannot look at things in a vacuum.

He was 2nd on the team in tackles in 2018 & 4th on the team in 2019.  

I'm not a Kazee apologist but i love his nose for the ball & playmaking ability.  I want him to grow as a player not be dumped.  Who knows man, I could be wrong but for some reason I have alway liked him since his ridiculous college production as a playmaker.

I can make a Vic Beasley highlight tape. That means nothing. You're taking it as "Kazee sucks". I never said that. Kazee isn't a deep FS and what I posted is an example. The fact that you took that post as a "he missed a tackle" post is also the problem. It's not him missing the tackle. It's his lack of processing ability and this causes him to hesitate and not be in position to make plays like said example. I showed you what happened in the same situation with Delpit and ET. 

He's a better robber. Closer to the ball, less players depending on his presence, and quicker plays. 

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2 hours ago, HASHBROWN3 said:

Vel, sure he missed a few tackles but he made a bunch too.  Some impressive ones.  You cannot look at things in a vacuum.

He was 2nd on the team in tackles in 2018 & 4th on the team in 2019.  

I'm not a Kazee apologist but i love his nose for the ball & playmaking ability.  I want him to grow as a player not be dumped.  Who knows man, I could be wrong but for some reason I have alway liked him since his ridiculous college production as a playmaker.

He’s always had a nose for those int’s, in college and pros......not a coincidence.

27 minutes ago, vel said:

I can make a Vic Beasley highlight tape. That means nothing. You're taking it as "Kazee sucks". I never said that. Kazee isn't a deep FS and what I posted is an example. The fact that you took that post as a "he missed a tackle" post is also the problem. It's not him missing the tackle. It's his lack of processing ability and this causes him to hesitate and not be in position to make plays like said example. I showed you what happened in the same situation with Delpit and ET. 

He's a better robber. Closer to the ball, less players depending on his presence, and quicker plays. 

Actually agree with alot of what both of you are saying. Kazee in that “robber” role in 3-safety sets would be perfect position for him. 

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Here's another example:

Trips formation, a formation that has given Kazee problems a LOT and I don't know why. If he reads the action properly, he'd see he only has a two man route combo to cover. If he identifies his personnel, he'd understand Campbell vs Kittle is a massive mismatch and he needs to be ready to jump to help. 

At the top of Jimmy G's drop, Kittle starts breaking outside. Kazee, unfortunately, is already behind Kittle as Kittle is able to get outside the hashmark as Kazee is still between them. He's got no leverage to drive on this pass attempt. The entire time the ball is in the air, Kazee is running straight towards the sideline. He's exactly ten yards away from Kittle the entire time. Pause the video at the :05 mark. Pause it again at the :07 mark. Kazee never provided help. It's a basic sail concept. Literally just a fly and a deep out. Two man route. Kazee provides not a lick of help on either route. Against this route concept, the FS either bails on the deep fly and attacks the crosser aggressively, or he stays over the fly and gives up the underneath crosser. He guards neither, putting both the CB and LB in 1v1 situations. That's entirely the opposite of his roll. 

But go ahead. Point to his interceptions...

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Let's keep going:

Here's why I said Kazee has trouble with trips formations. 3x1 formation out of a two TE set. Think for one second....who is a deep threat in a two TE set? The WRs. In trips with any kind of reduced set, the backside CB has almost an auto bracket with the LB because of their alignment. As a result, Tru and Rico essentially run a vertical bracket on Olsen, eliminating him as a threat before the snap even happens. Given that, Kazee's focus should be front side, which it is pre snap. He's aligned on the left hash to put him in better position vs a trips set. 

At the snap, it's play action and the front side TE stays in to block. This makes Kazee's job even easier since he only has two threats to concern himself with. For some reason, at the top of Allen's drop, Kazee is breaking towards Olsen. Why? He's slow and not a deep threat, all the while there is a bracket (as I noted already) in place and a 4.3 corner covering him. Kazee's not even bothered looking at the front side route combo. Not even a glance. Well, luckily the play gets blown up because the slot WR runs a basic seam route and is WIDE OPEN because the FS is rushing to help over a TE instead of just playing a two man route. 

That's back to back two man routes that Kazee couldn't cover correctly. No the pass wasn't thrown to the seam route, nor anywhere near Kazee, so yall don't care. But if it's on film, good OCs will see it and exploit it. 

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I'll chill out after this one:

This is versus Kyle Allen and the Panthers. Panthers go with a basic 3x1 Trips formation. We all know backside is a mable call. Oliver is in man. Kazee's focus is now on the trips to his left. Problem #1? He doesn't really even shade that direction, putting himself in an awkward position pre-snap. Also, it's clear he never really identifies the personnel on the field because...

...post snap, his two most threatening routes are the stack aligned tight to the formation. Olsen is the lead in that duo. He runs a deep cross, which is cleanly picked up by Debo. I'm taking that match up every day of the week. Yet, Kazee for some reason thinks he needs to provide Debo help over top on this route. Debo has the massive athletic advantage, bet on your MLB. The CBs have their assignments wrapped up cleanly. But because Kazee foolishly helps on a TE deep cross, he's out of his zone to stop the seam, which was dropped. He provides nothing there. 

This is basically what it should have looked like:

Image

The moment Olsen started inside, he became Debo's man. With Oliver in man and Trufant and Rico essentially running a vertical bracket on the outside WR (based on their coverage responsibilities) the only threat on this play for Kazee is the #2 WR running the seam. He never diagnoses anything the entire play. He's just "staying over top in the deep middle". Results in a big play opportunity that really shouldn't have even happened. 

Stop focusing on interceptions. Focus on the plays he prevents from happening or not. But that takes a degree of understanding what he's supposed to be doing, the rules he's supposed to be following, and the processing and ability to close and add value in coverage. 

All of the plays I posted, you could get any below average safety to do those things. Kazee doesn't work outside of the static framework of the coverage. He's hoping the QB takes him to the ball and he's able to get there to make a play. If not, just don't give up anything behind you. 

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And guess who else can't cover a sail route...

Vertical with a deep out. Rico doesn't even break until the ball is thrown. Murray stares down the route and Rico is still in the middle of the field. He doesn't have the speed to have a misstep. Just like Kazee, he's guarding neither the deep out, which he just can't from where he is and where it's run, nor the fly. Backside CB has to accept he's 1v1 and just cover the two WR side. You know the blitz is on too. 

Meanwhile...

Range. Raaaannnnnnggggeeeeee. We haven't seen this kind of range since that WillyMo pick vs Brees. There was no hesitation in his decision making. He knew where he needed to be and had the ability to get there. Rico barely even passed the numbers by the time the ball hits the WR's hands. We've accepted limited players on the back end because "at least they don't give up big plays". Teams see limited range over top and salivate. This kind of range start showing up on the Falcons' defensive tape and you'll see offenses completely change how they attack. 

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1 hour ago, vel said:

I can make a Vic Beasley highlight tape. That means nothing. You're taking it as "Kazee sucks". I never said that. Kazee isn't a deep FS and what I posted is an example. The fact that you took that post as a "he missed a tackle" post is also the problem. It's not him missing the tackle. It's his lack of processing ability and this causes him to hesitate and not be in position to make plays like said example. I showed you what happened in the same situation with Delpit and ET. 

He's a better robber. Closer to the ball, less players depending on his presence, and quicker plays. 

Ok I see where ur going now.  

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53 minutes ago, vel said:

And guess who else can't cover a sail route...

Vertical with a deep out. Rico doesn't even break until the ball is thrown. Murray stares down the route and Rico is still in the middle of the field. He doesn't have the speed to have a misstep. Just like Kazee, he's guarding neither the deep out, which he just can't from where he is and where it's run, nor the fly. Backside CB has to accept he's 1v1 and just cover the two WR side. You know the blitz is on too. 

Meanwhile...

Range. Raaaannnnnnggggeeeeee. We haven't seen this kind of range since that WillyMo pick vs Brees. There was no hesitation in his decision making. He knew where he needed to be and had the ability to get there. Rico barely even passed the numbers by the time the ball hits the WR's hands. We've accepted limited players on the back end because "at least they don't give up big plays". Teams see limited range over top and salivate. This kind of range start showing up on the Falcons' defensive tape and you'll see offenses completely change how they attack. 

That is why Delpit should be the pick at 16...  don't think a CB could impact as much a rangy safety like Delpit...

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