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The Joe Biden Presidency Thread


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6 minutes ago, Serge said:

If the last thread was still alive, I'd point out where I said in December that the NYT leak about Trump making Judaism a nationality was bait and y'all reacted like I was announcing who really killed JFK. 

You also said him repeating what he heard on Fox News just a few minutes before was a highly calculated trial balloon that everyone was falling for. So... :shrug:

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Seems like rescuing dogs during lockdown is a thing around here. It happened to us this past week. This guy wandered up dirty and skinny, playing with my daughter in the front yard. After a few days o

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32 minutes ago, Psychic Gibbon said:

Though as long as we're on this, aside from accusing these organizations of being bots and/or Russian agents one of the most common arguments against them I've seen since this started up is that they're being too privileged by not voting for Biden. That, imo, is the funniest thing of this election cycle so far where the litmus test of privilege from the idpol crowd has become voting for an old, well connected white man.

What kind of logic is this? 

I try not to touch on this point too much because I know it'll probably turn more people off than anything but Trump has been an unmitigated disaster for minority and poor communities. Covid-19 hitting us disproportionately hard is yet another example of this but his entire presidency has been one boot kick after another to minority and poor communities.

I think it's why so many black people broke for Biden. We're not dumb, we know that Bernie would ultimately probably be the best option. But most of us don't trust older white people who grew up on the capitalism=Jesus=good propaganda of the Cold War, to vote for a self-described Democratic socialist. And as much as we might want free healthcare, we want this **** to end first and foremost. 

Look at what the Trump presidency has meant for voting rights, abortion rights, the public safety net, healthcare, immigration, etc. It's been a disaster. If you can say you don't care to vote for the alternative because the alternative isn't exactly what you wanted, you're probably insulated from the effects of his policies it to some degree.

Like it or not, there is a privilege in that. And this isn't to call you or anyone else out because I'm privileged in this too. But I'm going to be real about it. Because Trump or Biden probably won't affect my life in any drastic way.

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Just now, Psychic Gibbon said:

You also said him repeating what he heard on Fox News just a few minutes before was a highly calculated trial balloon that everyone was falling for. So... :shrug:

You couldn't quote me calling anything Trump's ever said or done "highly calculated" if you had every thread we've ever had on here to look through.

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4 minutes ago, Psychic Gibbon said:

I'm saying the accounts being labeled as bots, and thereby delegitimize any left-wing opposition to Biden and Democrats in general, are, for the most part, irrelevant. If they had clout then, like you said, Bernie would have done much better. Instead they were mostly just hastily constructed gotv organizations.

Also, the wedge between liberals and leftists has been there before either of us were born. That is a centuries old ideological conflict, not some nefarious plot done by Trump and/or his supporters over the past few years. The only reason why it's noticeable now is because the left in this country has not had the numbers or electoral engagement it has right now until recently.

 

Just now, bdog 29 said:

What kind of logic is this? 

I try not to touch on this point too much because I know it'll probably turn more people off than anything but Trump has been an unmitigated disaster for minority and poor communities. Covid-19 hitting us disproportionately hard is yet another example of this but his entire presidency has been one boot kick after another to minority and poor communities.

I think it's why so many black people broke for Biden. We're not dumb, we know that Bernie would ultimately probably be the best option. But most of us don't trust older white people who grew up on the capitalism=Jesus=good propaganda of the Cold War, to vote for a self-described Democratic socialist. And as much as we might want free healthcare, we want this **** to end first and foremost. 

Look at what the Trump presidency has meant for voting rights, abortion rights, the public safety net, healthcare, immigration, etc. It's been a disaster. If you can say you don't care to vote for the alternative because the alternative isn't exactly what you wanted, you're probably insulated from the effects of his policies it to some degree.

Like it or not, there is a privilege in that. And this isn't to call you or anyone else out because I'm privileged in this too. But I'm going to be real about it. Because aside Trump or Biden probably won't affect my life in any drastic way.

PG sees the gap between liberals and leftists being so severe that there's no point in Trump people putting effort into exacerbating the split, so there's no reason to think about whether or not it's actually happening. But there's millions and millions of people who have been harmed by the Trump administration, who don't really like Biden and have to debate whether or not they're going to vote for him. That being said, it makes perfect sense that Trump supporters would want to turn those people off of Biden by emphasizing what a failure Biden and liberal policies in general are for the poor and working class. And the main reason to dismiss that possibility, is if you're a leftist that doesn't want to think that you're being useful to Trump.

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16 minutes ago, Serge said:

You couldn't quote me calling anything Trump's ever said or done "highly calculated" if you had every thread we've ever had on here to look through.

Probably not. Don't recall you ever saying "highly calculated." However, it's difficult not to read that as the opinion when you keep taking the position that everything he does has a calculated ulterior motive, such as repeating what he heard on Fox News actually being a trial balloon to gauge how the public feels about working through a pandemic... which probably should have been obvious where they'd stand on that.

And in this case, is it a signal to leftists that it's ok to not vote for Biden? Yes. Clearly it is. However, is it a nefarious plot by Trump and/or his supporters to sow discord between liberals and leftists? No. It's just the latest in a long line of examples of leftists, including by these same organizations, saying they can't bring themselves to vote for him and that they aren't on board with the whole vote blue no matter who mantra. Likewise, as I said before, the liberal/leftist divide is nothing new. It's simply prominent enough to be noticed again.

Like, you have your finger on the pulse of what's happening better than most but you just take it to the realm of the absurd too much.

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7 minutes ago, Psychic Gibbon said:

Probably not. Don't recall you ever saying "highly calculated." However, it's difficult not to read that as the opinion when you keep taking the position that everything he does has a calculated ulterior motive, such as repeating what he heard on Fox News actually being a trial balloon to gauge how the public feels about working through a pandemic... which probably should have been obvious where they'd stand on that.

And in this case, is it a signal to leftists that it's ok to not vote for Biden? Yes. Clearly it is. However, is it a nefarious plot by Trump and/or his supporters to sow discord between liberals and leftists? No. It's just the latest in a long line of examples of leftists, including by these same organizations, saying they can't bring themselves to vote for him and that they aren't on board with the whole vote blue no matter who mantra. Likewise, as I said before, the liberal/leftist divide is nothing new. It's simply prominent enough to be noticed again.

Like, you have your finger on the pulse of what's happening better than most but you just take it to the realm of the absurd too much.

You're using the phrase "calculated" like it takes any amount of intellectual effort at all to for him to tweet something he heard on Fox News to see how a general audience reacts to it. Leftists frequently do that when they don't want to think about something they prefer to render a conspiracy theory not fit for serious contemplation, not unlike Trout declaring that every conspiracy theory resulting from the Iowa caucus was in fact the singular conspiracy that Pete Buttigieg rigged it.

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18 minutes ago, bdog 29 said:

What kind of logic is this? 

I try not to touch on this point too much because I know it'll probably turn more people off than anything but Trump has been an unmitigated disaster for minority and poor communities. Covid-19 hitting us disproportionately hard is yet another example of this but his entire presidency has been one boot kick after another to minority and poor communities.

I think it's why so many black people broke for Biden. We're not dumb, we know that Bernie would ultimately probably be the best option. But most of us don't trust older white people who grew up on the capitalism=Jesus=good propaganda of the Cold War, to vote for a self-described Democratic socialist. And as much as we might want free healthcare, we want this **** to end first and foremost. 

Look at what the Trump presidency has meant for voting rights, abortion rights, the public safety net, healthcare, immigration, etc. It's been a disaster. If you can say you don't care to vote for the alternative because the alternative isn't exactly what you wanted, you're probably insulated from the effects of his policies it to some degree.

Like it or not, there is a privilege in that. And this isn't to call you or anyone else out because I'm privileged in this too. But I'm going to be real about it. Because aside Trump or Biden probably won't affect my life in any drastic way.

Let me answer this with a few questions:

Is it Trump or the economic and medical systems that's causing the pandemic to hit poorer and minority communities harder?

Is Trump an aberration of Republican politics of attacking voting rights, abortion rights, welfare, etc. or is he just a continuation of that since, say, 1981?

Will Biden, whose last major political act was the Grand Bargain of trying to gut Social Security and has stated repeatedly that he wants to work with Republicans again, fix those problems and reverse those trends?

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4 minutes ago, Serge said:

You're using the phrase "calculated" like it takes any amount of intellectual effort at all to for him to tweet something he heard on Fox News to see how a general audience reacts to it. Leftists frequently do that when they don't want to think about something they prefer to render a conspiracy theory not fit for serious contemplation, not unlike Trout declaring that every conspiracy theory resulting from the Iowa caucus was in fact the singular conspiracy that Pete Buttigieg rigged it.

I don't think it's a conspiracy theory. I think it's just reading way too much into something.

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1 hour ago, Big_Dog said:

There is so much official documentation on the early warnings that were ignored by your leader that resulted in too many deaths gives him the title of "Captain of the Titanic" per John Oliver and it fits. Sorry you disregard blatant ignorance.

John Oliver...:lol:

You need to shy away from comedic celebrities for your news. When "our" leader first shutdown travel in and out of China early on, your politicians called him xenophobic and a racists, yet he saved countless lives with that move. Stop letting your TDS make a complete *** of yourself, Gramps. 

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4 minutes ago, WhenFalconsWin said:

John Oliver...:lol:

You need to shy away from comedic celebrities for your news. When "our" leader first shutdown travel in and out of China early on, your politicians called him xenophobic and a racists, yet he saved countless lives with that move. Stop letting your TDS make a complete *** of yourself, Gramps. 

Do you spit on it first?  You gotta get that thing wet before you start going to town on it.

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Just now, Psychic Gibbon said:

Let me answer this with a few questions:

Is it Trump or the economic and medical systems that's causing the pandemic to hit poorer and minority communities harder?

Trump is the main reason. I work in healthcare and studied healthcare policy in grad school so you'll hardly ever hear me defend our healthcare system. But our system isn't why Covid-19 has hit the country or minority communities like it has. 

The main issue with this pandemic is that we don't have enough tests and the monitoring and evaluation institutions have failed. In an ideal world, we would have tested everyone coming from hotspots, quarantined, and treated them. If people slipped through the cracks, they could be found and tested and their contacts tracked. But we don't have enough tests so we couldn't. That falls squarely on the Trump administration turning down the WHO's tests, downplaying it for two months, and worrying more about the stock market when **** started hitting the fan.

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Is Trump an aberration of Republican politics of attacking voting rights, abortion rights, welfare, etc. or is he just a continuation of that since, say, 1981?

Yes he is. He's more annoying and brazen which wears on you but he is keeping in line with Republican policy. But if anything I'd think knowing this would be more reason to vote for Biden. We all know what Republicans are and what they do. I personally would like to do everything I can to thwart them. 

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Will Biden, whose last major political act was the Grand Bargain of trying to gut Social Security and has stated repeatedly that he wants to work with Republicans again, fix those problems and reverse those trends?

Biden on his own volition probably wouldn't do any type of universal healthcare, student loan forgiveness, or a higher minimum wage (though I think I read that he's on board with that now). But do I think he'd reverse the family separation policy, not stack the SCOTUS with ultra conservative justices, try to strengthen voting rights, enforce climate policies etc? Most definitely.

As much as people harp on the left vs liberal dichotomy, there are a lot of things they agree on which Republicans vehemently fight against. Even if my preferred leftist doesn't win, I know that I can get a good chunk of what I want done with just your average run-of-the-mill liberal. 

I genuinely don't understand why people don't acknowledge that and are in this all-or-nothing mode.

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Nonvoters Are Not Privileged. They Are Disproportionately Lower-Income, Nonwhite, and Dissatisfied With the Two Parties.

 

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NOT EVEN 24 HOURS have elapsed since Bernie Sanders announced that he was suspending his presidential run, and already a shaming campaign has been launched against those who are contemplating abstaining from voting due to dissatisfaction with the two major party candidates. The premise invoked for this tactic is that only those who are sufficiently “privileged” have the luxury of choosing not to vote — meaning that nonvoters are rich and white and thus largely immune from the harmful consequences of a Trump presidency, which largely fall on the backs of poorer and nonwhite Americans.

This tactic rests on a caricature: It is designed to suggest that the only people who make a deliberate and conscious choice not to vote due to dissatisfaction are white trust fund leftists whose wealth, status, and privilege immunize them from the consequences of abstention. By contrast, this “You Must Vote” campaign insists, those who lack such luxuries — poorer voters and racial minorities — understand that voting is imperative.

This assertion about the identity and motives of nonvoters is critical not only to try to bully and coerce people into voting by associating nonvoting with rich, white privilege, but also to suppress any recognition of how widespread the dissatisfaction is for both parties and the political system generally among poor and nonwhite citizens.

But the problem with this claim is a rather significant one: It is based on the outright, demonstrable falsehood that those who choose not to vote are primarily rich, white, and thus privileged, while those who lack those privileges — voters of color and poorer voters — are unwilling to abstain. This is something one can believe only if one’s views of the country and its electorate are shaped by social media and cable news bubbles.

...

 

 

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Young voters don't turn out in large enough numbers to control elections as a bloc, but their turnout is nevertheless particularly important for the Democratic party. Problematically, the Democratic party consistently acts as if it is entitled to the young vote as a matter of course. Aside from vague platitudes, however, democratic candidates rarely offer the young anything of substance, and many young voters do not consider themselves "democrats." Hard as it is for some to imagine,their lives have been defined by the "lesser of two evils," and on the whole things have only gotten worse.

Bernie did offer them substance and was rewarded with a passionate and widespread ground operation, though it still wasn't enough to overcome the entrenched older voters' preferences, the machinations of the party and media, and general disillusionment and apathy. It doesn't mean that the young people who did support him aren't necessary for Biden to win (though maybe they won't be this time), or that simply ****ting on them or vote-shaming them is sufficient to win them over.

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Just now, bdog 29 said:

Trump is the main reason. I work in healthcare and studied healthcare policy in grad school so you'll hardly ever hear me defend our healthcare system. But our system isn't why Covid-19 has hit the country or minority communities like it has. 

The main issue with this pandemic is that we don't have enough tests and the monitoring and evaluation institutions have failed. In an ideal world, we would have tested everyone coming from hotspots, quarantined, and treated them. If people slipped through the cracks, they could be found and tested and their contacts tracked. But we don't have enough tests so we couldn't. That falls squarely on the Trump administration turning down the WHO's tests, downplaying it for two months, and worrying more about the stock market when **** started hitting the fan.

Completely agree that the lack of stockpiling and piss poor initial response is why we're getting hit hard. However, I also know full well that the epidemic preparation funding has been drastically cut down over the past few decades by both parties so that isn't something that will be fixed just with one of the symptoms gone.

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Yes he is. He's more annoying and brazen which wears on you but he is keeping in line with Republican policy. But if anything I'd think knowing this would be more reason to vote for Biden. We all know what Republicans are and what they do. I personally would like to do everything I can to thwart them. 

So we agree that Trump is a symptom, not the disease.

Also, Biden has stated that he thinks Republicans will "snap out of it" once Trump is out of office and that he looks forward to working with them again. He won't fix anything on that front since he's completely deluded there.

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But do I think he'd reverse the family separation policy, not stack the SCOTUS with ultra conservative justices, try to strengthen voting rights, enforce climate policies etc? Most definitely.

The Trump administration used policies put into action by the Obama administration regarding the kids in cages things, which is why he gets so many protests about this when he would occasionally be allowed out by his staffers, so, again, I'm not expecting him to fix anything on that front. Maybe the most you can expect is him reversing course on the stuff that causes the worst PR but, overall, the rest of those policies will be kept in place.

Democrats lost SCOTUS in 2016. Only way they're getting it back any time soon is through packing. State legislatures control how elections are conducted, not the president. He has, by far, the worst climate policies of any of the Democratic candidates this go around.

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Biden on his own volition probably wouldn't do any type of universal healthcare, student loan forgiveness, or a higher minimum wage (though I think I read that he's on board with that now)

...

As much as people harp on the left vs liberal dichotomy, there are a lot of things they agree on which Republicans vehemently fight against. Even if my preferred leftist doesn't win, I know that I can get a good chunk of what I want done with just your average run-of-the-mill liberal. 

That's the issue here: We aren't getting what we want or need from him and we know full well that we can't trust him based on his abysmal, very conservative record. In fact we know how he really feels since he stated to his donors that, "Nothing will fundamentally change," under him. Which brings us back to the original point:

How is supporting the affirmation of this extremely broken, anti-poor, anti-minority status quo with this kind of candidate anti-privilege?

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11 minutes ago, Psychic Gibbon said:

Completely agree that the lack of stockpiling and piss poor initial response is why we're getting hit hard. However, I also know full well that the epidemic preparation funding has been drastically cut down over the past few decades by both parties so that isn't something that will be fixed just with one of the symptoms gone.

So we agree that Trump is a symptom, not the disease.

Also, Biden has stated that he thinks Republicans will "snap out of it" once Trump is out of office and that he looks forward to working with them again. He won't fix anything on that front since he's completely deluded there.

The Trump administration used policies put into action by the Obama administration regarding the kids in cages things, which is why he gets so many protests about this when he would occasionally be allowed out by his staffers, so, again, I'm not expecting him to fix anything on that front. Maybe the most you can expect is him reversing course on the stuff that causes the worst PR but, overall, the rest of those policies will be kept in place.

Democrats lost SCOTUS in 2016. Only way they're getting it back any time soon is through packing. State legislatures control how elections are conducted, not the president. He has, by far, the worst climate policies of any of the Democratic candidates this go around.

That's the issue here: We aren't getting what we want or need from him and we know full well that we can't trust him based on his abysmal, very conservative record. In fact we know how he really feels since he stated to his donors that, "Nothing will fundamentally change," under him. Which brings us back to the original point:

How is supporting the affirmation of this extremely broken, anti-poor, anti-minority status quo with this kind of candidate anti-privilege?

The two sides of Congress are FUBAR and thinking they will work together in today's climate? That won't happen probably in your lifetime again. Division has been sewn in and it started a longtime ago and the sides are only getting worse.  

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50 minutes ago, Psychic Gibbon said:

I forget how exactly it goes but I'm reminded of something I heard that went something like, "Critics try to find the hidden symbolism of why something was blue when the author simply wanted it to be blue."

I tried to use that argument in Calculus classes. 
 

No it didn’t work and still  had to find the reasons why! :lol:

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