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The Joe Biden Presidency Thread


Mr. Hoopah!
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Just now, achilles return said:

and in all honesty, it was a bad post. i blame typing on an ipad while trying to eat a bowl of cereal. i was responding to the "why are you guys talking about the police and not about the looters?", and i was absolutely being flippant, but only to a random lurker i thought was holding up both as somehow equal in importance for the sake of marginalizing police brutality. 

it definitely wasn't targeted at any other posters.

 

Both you and Jdave are smug as ****.  That's one of the reasons I like both of you.

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9 minutes ago, ATLBrave said:

Or, you know, shift their current funding from militaristic-minded spending to the areas that need the most work, like proper de-escalation training, body cameras, etc.

I'm sure a lot of people here have seen the graphic regarding spending on the LAPD compared to other areas. Priorities need to be shifted, not have more money thrown at it.

Yeah I get that, but not all police departments are created equal. How do you expect police departments to effectively serve their communities with ****ty pay, long hours, and an understaffed workforce? That's how you get bad apples in the police force, because departments are desperate for bodies that they'll get a guy with a spotty record or keep a guy with one.

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1 minute ago, achilles return said:

and in all honesty, it was a bad post. i blame typing on an ipad while trying to eat a bowl of cereal. i was responding to the "why are you guys talking about the police and not about the looters?", and i was absolutely being flippant, but only to a random lurker i thought was holding up both as somehow equal in importance for the sake of marginalizing police brutality. 

it definitely wasn't targeted at any other posters.

 

See, we fight, then we hug it out.  Maybe @Boner is right.  Maybe it is sexual.

Ew, put that away!  It's a metaphor dude!

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7 minutes ago, JDaveG said:

 

I think both of these are fair points.  Perhaps a diversion of money is needed.  Or perhaps a significant reduction in force size (accomplished by eliminating bad actors and, if needed, bringing in more high quality officers) and diverting salary to training, perhaps even saving money in the process.

But I assume you'd both agree that defunding without evaluating the same measures is equally laughable?

I tend to agree with both sides of the discussion and lean more toward where you're coming from. I'd add that maybe they should only buy equipment is proportionate to what they actually need to do their jobs effectively. I mean the city of Newnan has what is essentially a tank and multiple APC's and I will never understand why. And that's not just a thing that happens in the city of Newnan.

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Just now, Mr.11 said:

Yeah I get that, but not all police departments are created equal. How do you expect police departments to effectively serve their communities with ****ty pay, long hours, and an understaffed workforce? That's how you get bad apples in the police force, because departments are desperate for bodies that they'll a guy with a spotty record or keep a guy with one.

There's also the problem of feeling like manpower is the be-all end-all of policing.  That is politician driven.  They love to say "I put _____ new police officers on the streets to protect our citizens!"

Never mind that policing in this country is not done by manpower to begin with, something the unrest in our cities should prove to anyone paying attention.  There aren't enough police in this country to control a mob, ruly or unruly.  Police keep peace via respect, specifically, respect for the authority they represent.  So it is quality policing, not quantity of police, that is most effective.

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4 minutes ago, Mr.11 said:

Yeah I get that, but not all police departments are created equal. How do you expect police departments to effectively serve their communities with ****ty pay, long hours, and an understaffed workforce? That's how you get bad apples in the police force, because departments are desperate for bodies that they'll a guy with a spotty record or keep a guy with one.

You're not wrong. Someone brought up a great comparison earlier in police officers and teachers. There definitely needs to be proper funding in all instances (in the case of education, vastly more funding), but there also has to be a renewed focus on what that spending is going towards. 

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Just now, Boner said:

Maybe we should stop spending billions of dollars to lock up more people per capita than anywhere else in the world.  Just a thought.  I'll hang up and listen.

No doubt about it.  We need criminal justice reform, we need better drug policy, we need an end to private prisons and probation services.  I think you're absolutely right about those things.

But we still need to have police.  Abolition of policing is not mutually exclusive with reform of criminal justice.

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3 minutes ago, Jpizzle said:

I tend to agree with both sides of the discussion and lean more toward where you're coming from. I'd add that maybe they should only buy equipment is proportionate to what they actually need to do their jobs effectively. I mean the city of Newnan has what is essentially a tank and multiple APC's and I will never understand why. And that's not just a thing that happens in the city of Newnan.

Can't emphasize this enough. There's absolutely no ******* reason that a city like that should ever require equipment like that. 

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I have to reiterate that NOW seems silly to want to shift the discourse to the looting (or even treat them as equal) over the police brutality  when one seems to be on the decline and the other (seems) just as bad as ever. 

Well maybe that last part isn't fair, we're seeing cops chill in DC, Atlanta,  LA, Denver often as not cause the protestors chilled. But the horror stories w/ video continue to pour in every night. 

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9 minutes ago, achilles return said:

and in all honesty, it was a bad post. i blame typing on an ipad while trying to eat a bowl of cereal. i was responding to the "why are you guys talking about the police and not about the looters?", and i was absolutely being flippant, but only to a random lurker i thought was holding up both as somehow equal in importance for the sake of marginalizing police brutality. 

it definitely wasn't targeted at any other posters.

 

For the record Gaucho is a pretty good poster. He's another one of those **** lawyers.

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12 minutes ago, JDaveG said:

 

I think both of these are fair points.  Perhaps a diversion of money is needed.  Or perhaps a significant reduction in force size (accomplished by eliminating bad actors and, if needed, bringing in more high quality officers) and diverting salary to training, perhaps even saving money in the process.

But I assume you'd both agree that defunding without evaluating the same measures is equally laughable?

Of course. Evaluating has to happen, period.

I'm just thoroughly galled, and actually pretty angry, about how few resources we had to address a nationwide pandemic that threatened the health of every American citizen, and yet we have the cash for entire armies of cops to be armed to the teeth with military grade weaponry and equipment...that they then use to attack American citizens.

I'm tired of dropping trillions of dollars into the stock market every ten years, while ideas like universal health care, free tuition, and a healthy social safety net get tossed aside for being 'too expensive'. At some point we have to acknowledge that the entire economic system in our country exists to crush all but a very small number of comfortable elites.

It's disgusting. 

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2 minutes ago, JDaveG said:

No doubt about it.  We need criminal justice reform, we need better drug policy, we need an end to private prisons and probation services.  I think you're absolutely right about those things.

But we still need to have police.  Abolition of policing is not mutually exclusive with reform of criminal justice.

We are in agreement.

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1 minute ago, AF89 said:

I have to reiterate that NOW seems silly to want go shift the discourse to the looting over the police brutality  when one seems to be on the decline and the other (seems) just as bad as ever. 

Well maybe that last part isn't fair, we're seeing cops chill in DC, Atlanta,  LA, Denver often as not cause the protestors chilled. But the horror stories continue to pour in every night. 

There is some cause and effect there though.  Heavier-handed policing was required to quell the riots and looting.  It also, quite naturally, results in more police abuse (since you are shifting from a "crowd control" scenario to essentially a battleground scenario).

That's not to defend heavy-handed policing.  It is to say it is entirely expected after what we saw last weekend.

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13 minutes ago, JDaveG said:

There's also the problem of feeling like manpower is the be-all end-all of policing.  That is politician driven.  They love to say "I put _____ new police officers on the streets to protect our citizens!"

Never mind that policing in this country is not done by manpower to begin with, something the unrest in our cities should prove to anyone paying attention.  There aren't enough police in this country to control a mob, ruly or unruly.  Police keep peace via respect, specifically, respect for the authority they represent.  So it is quality policing, not quantity of police, that is most effective.

 

12 minutes ago, ATLBrave said:

You're not wrong. Someone brought up a great comparison earlier in police officers and teachers. There definitely needs to be proper funding in all instances (in the case of education, vastly more funding), but there also has to be a renewed focus on what  that spending is going towards. 

Right on both.

I have the benefit of having worked armed security for a couple of years, so I can understand both positions to a degree. I understand that law enforcement has to maintain a level of professionalism for quality work, but we gotta remember officers are people, too. This is why training is so important, because when you're approaching hour 8, or 10 of (what you hope stays) a 12 hour shift and now you gotta respond to some unrest, even good guys can start getting irritable.

That said, I think there's too much of a focus on punitive measures on dealing with issues. That has to change. More focus has to be on reform, not just punishing.

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46 minutes ago, JDaveG said:

This is insane to me.  I see a situation where literally anyone can be a cop, very little education required, very little training expected, and your answer is less pay, less training and less qualified candidates (because highly qualified candidates won't work for low pay, lousy benefits, and crappy training where they bear the consequences of all three in real time).

We absolutely need more funding for police.  Not necessarily more police, and certainly not more law enforcement (too many things are illegal to begin with).  So yeah, if quantity is what is being sought with more funding, I agree with you.  But improving quality?  100% this needs to be done, and it requires more pay, more training, and therefore more funding (because payroll and training cost money).

My main thing is that their training has to change.  No more training that treats us like the enemy.  It’s not focused at all to help the broader community.  I want them to make decent money, but if they don’t serve the community, then what is their purpose?

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Just now, lostone said:

My main thing is that their training has to change.  No more training that treats us like the enemy.  It’s not focused at all to help the broader community.  I want them to make decent money, but if they don’t serve the community, then what is their purpose?

Agree 100%.  The thing about training is it is what you revert to in crisis.  So if it's bad training, it reveals that "practice makes perfect" is a lie.  Practice makes permanent.  In this case, permanently bad (and in George Floyd's case and too many others, permanently gone).

I have said here a bunch of times I am better trained in use of force than most police officers.  That is 100% true, but it isn't a brag.  It's just a very, very low bar.

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