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ike barn87987

This is the stuff coach Whitt was talking about..being on the same page

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I'm confused as to why we think this is on Trufant.  Typically, it's the LBer that gets the RB assignment.  You can even see our LB shift into coverage when Kamara goes into motion.  It looks more like the LB took the wrong assignment.

I don't know what our guys are instructed to do.  I just don't see why we would assume this is on Trufant.  It looks more like our LB took the wrong assignment.  I agree it's a communication problem, but our guys really should know what they are supposed to do when they see this formation.  Every time I've seen similar where Kamara goes to the left of the OL, Deion Jones covers Kamara.  He doesn't switch his coverage and try to scream back for somebody else in the secondary to play the line and cover the RB.  

I'm not an expert.  I just don't recall ever seeing a LB ask a DB to cover the RB inside the box.  DB's cover RB's when they split out wide, but he didn't split out wide.  LBers get the backfield, which I would think still applies against a stack formation.

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1 hour ago, etherdome said:

I don't know if Tramon Williams is the right guy (I truly don't know), but I would like to see us sign a savvy veteran to add to the secondary

Familiarity and established veteran presence. He's the right guy

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1 hour ago, pzummo said:

I'm confused as to why we think this is on Trufant.  Typically, it's the LBer that gets the RB assignment.  You can even see our LB shift into coverage when Kamara goes into motion.  It looks more like the LB took the wrong assignment.

I don't know what our guys are instructed to do.  I just don't see why we would assume this is on Trufant.  It looks more like our LB took the wrong assignment.  I agree it's a communication problem, but our guys really should know what they are supposed to do when they see this formation.  Every time I've seen similar where Kamara goes to the left of the OL, Deion Jones covers Kamara.  He doesn't switch his coverage and try to scream back for somebody else in the secondary to play the line and cover the RB.  

I'm not an expert.  I just don't recall ever seeing a LB ask a DB to cover the RB inside the box.  DB's cover RB's when they split out wide, but he didn't split out wide.  LBers get the backfield, which I would think still applies against a stack formation.

I think trufant should have cover the outside period. You are outside you are the last line of defense. He had plenty of time to see Campbell wasn't breaking... that was on Tru.

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1 hour ago, GATXBOI said:

I think trufant should have cover the outside period. You are outside you are the last line of defense. He had plenty of time to see Campbell wasn't breaking... that was on Tru.

Kamara was lined up inside.  Not outside.  It looks to me like they are playing man coverage.  Not zone.  If you are playing man coverage, you do not abandon your assignment because somebody else blew there's.  Have you ever seen any CB on any defense play man on the outside and switch coverage with a LB because the TE ran an out?  No.  Because that would be stupid.

I don't know if it was Trufant's fault.  It looks to me like our LB should have released and covered the RB closer to the LOS instead of turning around trying to cover a post route.

I guess you would prefer a defense that has LBers cover an offense's outside player running a post route while our CB's cover their RB that lined up inside.  If so, we can agree to disagree.  In my opinion, the LB made the wrong adjustment.  He went in motion with the RB and switched his coverage to the outside for no apparent reason.

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46 minutes ago, pzummo said:

Kamara was lined up inside.  Not outside.  It looks to me like they are playing man coverage.  Not zone.  If you are playing man coverage, you do not abandon your assignment because somebody else blew there's.  Have you ever seen any CB on any defense play man on the outside and switch coverage with a LB because the TE ran an out?  No.  Because that would be stupid.

I don't know if it was Trufant's fault.  It looks to me like our LB should have released and covered the RB closer to the LOS instead of turning around trying to cover a post route.

I guess you would prefer a defense that has LBers cover an offense's outside player running a post route while our CB's cover their RB that lined up inside.  If so, we can agree to disagree.  In my opinion, the LB made the wrong adjustment.  He went in motion with the RB and switched his coverage to the outside for no apparent reason.

The reason this is more Trufant, is because Trufant has the capacity to take the second threat. Even if he was prepared to cover the TE, which he was aligned over initially, all you have to do is see Campbell's alignment and see he committed to covering the TE in man. Then after the snap, you see Campbell is jamming AND carrying the TE. Trufant had two opportunities to take Kamara and didn't. Pause the clip at :24 and :27. 

@ :24 - You see Trufant stacked behind Campbell. It's a man coverage. Campbell declared who he's guarding. Trufant has to respond on that. Does he? Who knows...

@ :27 - This is where you see Trufant is again in no man's land. Something he's done a lot in his time in ATL. He can clearly see the release for both threats. He can also clearly see one guy is going out, while Campbell is jamming the other player with no leverage to cover the outside route. So why doesn't Tru pick up the free threat? He can clearly see and react to it. 

Campbell clearly points out, alerts Tru, and clearly aligns over the man he's declaring to be his. Why leave Tru in man vs a bigger TE and Campbell vs the shiftier Kamara? It makes more sense to do what Campbell did, even with the motion. Not just that. I don't know the rules, because I don't know the coverage, but in a man with guys stacked like that, the CB takes the outside route since he was already the outside defender. Kamara is that guy. 

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1 hour ago, vel said:

The reason this is more Trufant, is because Trufant has the capacity to take the second threat. Even if he was prepared to cover the TE, which he was aligned over initially, all you have to do is see Campbell's alignment and see he committed to covering the TE in man. Then after the snap, you see Campbell is jamming AND carrying the TE. Trufant had two opportunities to take Kamara and didn't. Pause the clip at :24 and :27. 

@ :24 - You see Trufant stacked behind Campbell. It's a man coverage. Campbell declared who he's guarding. Trufant has to respond on that. Does he? Who knows...

@ :27 - This is where you see Trufant is again in no man's land. Something he's done a lot in his time in ATL. He can clearly see the release for both threats. He can also clearly see one guy is going out, while Campbell is jamming the other player with no leverage to cover the outside route. So why doesn't Tru pick up the free threat? He can clearly see and react to it. 

Campbell clearly points out, alerts Tru, and clearly aligns over the man he's declaring to be his. Why leave Tru in man vs a bigger TE and Campbell vs the shiftier Kamara? It makes more sense to do what Campbell did, even with the motion. Not just that. I don't know the rules, because I don't know the coverage, but in a man with guys stacked like that, the CB takes the outside route since he was already the outside defender. Kamara is that guy. 

@:24 - It looks more like he tries to say something to the Safety.  He doesn't even turn his head far enough to see Trufant, let alone communicate with him.  Communicating with the Safety regarding TE and RB coverage responsibilities seems to make more sense.  I don't understand why anybody would assume he effectively communicated with Trufant there.  Even if we do assume that he effectively communicated,  changing coverage assignments less than a second before the ball is snapped is still ill-advised.  Why would he play man on the TE instead of covering the RB when our CB is lined up 8 yards off of the LOS?  He's the guy you want covering the RB lined up 2 yards off of the LOS, 10 yards between them?  I can't imagine any scenario where we want our LB making that adjustment based on that offensive alignment, especially when he does it within a second of the snap.

In man coverage, you are not assigned the person running a particular route.  I don't know where you got that from.  The defense doesn't know what route a player is going to run.  The CB typically takes the player that is lined up outside.  A CB in man coverage doesn't release because his guy ran an inside route.  If you take the guy that runs an outside route, what happens when the outside guy runs an inside slant?  The CB is supposed to u-turn because the slot guy ran an outside slant?  That's not how man coverage works and would never work because of momentum and loss of leverage.  The CB does not "take the outside route".  They cover a man or they cover a zone.  That's why it's called "man" coverage.  In zone coverage, they cover a portion of the field, and close in on any person that comes into their zone.

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1 hour ago, vel said:

The reason this is more Trufant, is because Trufant has the capacity to take the second threat. Even if he was prepared to cover the TE, which he was aligned over initially, all you have to do is see Campbell's alignment and see he committed to covering the TE in man. Then after the snap, you see Campbell is jamming AND carrying the TE. Trufant had two opportunities to take Kamara and didn't. Pause the clip at :24 and :27. 

@ :24 - You see Trufant stacked behind Campbell. It's a man coverage. Campbell declared who he's guarding. Trufant has to respond on that. Does he? Who knows...

@ :27 - This is where you see Trufant is again in no man's land. Something he's done a lot in his time in ATL. He can clearly see the release for both threats. He can also clearly see one guy is going out, while Campbell is jamming the other player with no leverage to cover the outside route. So why doesn't Tru pick up the free threat? He can clearly see and react to it. 

Campbell clearly points out, alerts Tru, and clearly aligns over the man he's declaring to be his. Why leave Tru in man vs a bigger TE and Campbell vs the shiftier Kamara? It makes more sense to do what Campbell did, even with the motion. Not just that. I don't know the rules, because I don't know the coverage, but in a man with guys stacked like that, the CB takes the outside route since he was already the outside defender. Kamara is that guy. 

I won't miss that guy one bit. Campbell was bad in some ways but I don't think a lack of effort was really ever the issue with him. You can't say the same for FalseFant.

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1 hour ago, pzummo said:

@:24 - It looks more like he tries to say something to the Safety.  He doesn't even turn his head far enough to see Trufant, let alone communicate with him.  Communicating with the Safety regarding TE and RB coverage responsibilities seems to make more sense.  I don't understand why anybody would assume he effectively communicated with Trufant there.  Even if we do assume that he effectively communicated,  changing coverage assignments less than a second before the ball is snapped is still ill-advised.  Why would he play man on the TE instead of covering the RB when our CB is lined up 8 yards off of the LOS?  He's the guy you want covering the RB lined up 2 yards off of the LOS, 10 yards between them?  I can't imagine any scenario where we want our LB making that adjustment based on that offensive alignment, especially when he does it within a second of the snap.

In man coverage, you are not assigned the person running a particular route.  I don't know where you got that from.  The defense doesn't know what route a player is going to run.  The CB typically takes the player that is lined up outside.  A CB in man coverage doesn't release because his guy ran an inside route.  If you take the guy that runs an outside route, what happens when the outside guy runs an inside slant?  The CB is supposed to u-turn because the slot guy ran an outside slant?  That's not how man coverage works and would never work because of momentum and loss of leverage.  The CB does not "take the outside route".  They cover a man or they cover a zone.  That's why it's called "man" coverage.  In zone coverage, they cover a portion of the field, and close in on any person that comes into their zone.

How is he trying to say anything to a safety from that spot on the field? The only person reacting is Trufant. You're too focused on who the offensive players are. That doesn't matter. If that were the case, Trufant wouldn't have been guarding a TE to begin with. 

Also, he's not changing less than a second before the ball is snapped. Kamara goes in motion at :20 mark, Campbell alerts Trufant at :22 (turning over his left shoulder so no way possible he's talking to a safety), then again at :23 alerts Tru and steps up to jam the TE, the ball is snapped at :25. Sorry but there is nothing more Campbell could have done for Trufant there to let him know he's full on taking the TE. He's taking the TE because he can get a better alignment on the TE to jam and play man, he's more suited to match up a TE in space than Kamara, and Kamara has a two way go from his alignment and the only play who can defend that spot without getting caught in trash is Trufant. 

Regardless, here are the rules to guarding a stacked alignment. (Note: the diagrams will show CB/S but replace that with Trufant and Campbell)

Quote

STACKS

1

Offenses will often use WR stacks (Diagram 1) in an attempt to confuse and manipulate defenders into cutting one or more receivers loose in a route. There are three standard ways for handling WR stacks, and the first is to press the on-the-line receiver and play off-man on the other receiver (Diagram 2).This is one of the first answers that defenses will utilize vs. stacks. Doing this makes the man assignments very clear for the defenders and eliminates confusion especially when used sparingly, but also becomes very predictable for the offense.

(This is where Trufant messed up. This one rule. Regardless of anything else in regards to personnel, routes, play, etc. Trufant is playing off-man on the receiver that is not being jammed. Whether he heard Campbell or not, you clearly see Campbell is aligned to press the TE, making Trufant the off-man on the remaining receiver. This is dead on arrival.)

2

For example, some teams may take a flex-TE and put him on the LOS to easily block the DB in press alignment. This enables the deep receiver to step back and catch a quick screen pass with up to a ten yard cushion from the defender that is covering him. So, while this strategy is straightforward, it can be manipulated by offensive personnel.

An extension of this strategy entails having one defender align in a press position on the LOS who then has the choice to cover either receiver from the line of scrimmage (Diagram 3). Usually, the communication between the two defenders involved is done through hand signals before the play or by game plan. This is a smart way for defenses to slow down offenses because there is some pre-snap hesitancy about who is covering whom. This is especially good vs. quick screens because it can greatly reduce the amount of space in which each defender has to make an open-field tackle. This technique does take time to master, though, because it can be difficult for the on-the-line defender to cover the stacked receiver based on his release and route.

3

 

This shows you how they chose to defend this look. It was correct. Campbell, in the sake of the diagrams, is the CB and Trufant is the S. This isn't a matter of my opinion vs yours. It's like Football 201, not introduction stuff, but very basic in nature. Nothing exotic in how they should have covered this. This is all why Trufant has Kamara. He was the second man, the non-press man. He HAS to take the uncovered man. It's the rule, not an opinion. He also HAS to take Kamara because of the In/Out rules of this alignment. There is no way Campbell can align and apply this technique, which he did properly, and jam the TE while peeling to cover Kamara. He's neither in a position to do so, nor athletic enough to do so. 

You can't just ignore rules. That's what you're trying to do because you don't understand how it could possibly be one way, so you're trying to force it to something you understand. That's not a shot at you or trying to be disrespectful, just pointing it out. You know enough about football, but you're missing this one my man. 

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3 hours ago, vel said:

How is he trying to say anything to a safety from that spot on the field? The only person reacting is Trufant. You're too focused on who the offensive players are. That doesn't matter. If that were the case, Trufant wouldn't have been guarding a TE to begin with. 

Also, he's not changing less than a second before the ball is snapped. Kamara goes in motion at :20 mark, Campbell alerts Trufant at :22 (turning over his left shoulder so no way possible he's talking to a safety), then again at :23 alerts Tru and steps up to jam the TE, the ball is snapped at :25. Sorry but there is nothing more Campbell could have done for Trufant there to let him know he's full on taking the TE. He's taking the TE because he can get a better alignment on the TE to jam and play man, he's more suited to match up a TE in space than Kamara, and Kamara has a two way go from his alignment and the only play who can defend that spot without getting caught in trash is Trufant. 

Regardless, here are the rules to guarding a stacked alignment. (Note: the diagrams will show CB/S but replace that with Trufant and Campbell)

This shows you how they chose to defend this look. It was correct. Campbell, in the sake of the diagrams, is the CB and Trufant is the S. This isn't a matter of my opinion vs yours. It's like Football 201, not introduction stuff, but very basic in nature. Nothing exotic in how they should have covered this. This is all why Trufant has Kamara. He was the second man, the non-press man. He HAS to take the uncovered man. It's the rule, not an opinion. He also HAS to take Kamara because of the In/Out rules of this alignment. There is no way Campbell can align and apply this technique, which he did properly, and jam the TE while peeling to cover Kamara. He's neither in a position to do so, nor athletic enough to do so. 

You can't just ignore rules. That's what you're trying to do because you don't understand how it could possibly be one way, so you're trying to force it to something you understand. That's not a shot at you or trying to be disrespectful, just pointing it out. You know enough about football, but you're missing this one my man. 

You can clearly see him turn to his right just before he gets into position.

Honestly, I don't care enough to continue discussing it.  I hope we see better communication and less blown coverages this season.  That starts by making sure everybody knows their job when the offense gives them a certain look.  We can agree that at least one of them didn't do their job on that play, with a possibility that both of them played it incorrectly.

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15 hours ago, pzummo said:

I'm confused as to why we think this is on Trufant.  Typically, it's the LBer that gets the RB assignment.  You can even see our LB shift into coverage when Kamara goes into motion.  It looks more like the LB took the wrong assignment.

I don't know what our guys are instructed to do.  I just don't see why we would assume this is on Trufant.  It looks more like our LB took the wrong assignment.  I agree it's a communication problem, but our guys really should know what they are supposed to do when they see this formation.  Every time I've seen similar where Kamara goes to the left of the OL, Deion Jones covers Kamara.  He doesn't switch his coverage and try to scream back for somebody else in the secondary to play the line and cover the RB.  

I'm not an expert.  I just don't recall ever seeing a LB ask a DB to cover the RB inside the box.  DB's cover RB's when they split out wide, but he didn't split out wide.  LBers get the backfield, which I would think still applies against a stack formation.

Its definitely on Trufant. He has the outside boundary and its embarrassing that he would need a lber to tell this to him, this is a primitive play and he didnt make it because Trufant is football stupid. This is what we've been talking about for years now, Trufant's fetish for covering grass needed to go. 

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3 hours ago, pzummo said:

You can clearly see him turn to his right just before he gets into position.

Honestly, I don't care enough to continue discussing it.  I hope we see better communication and less blown coverages this season.  That starts by making sure everybody knows their job when the offense gives them a certain look.  We can agree that at least one of them didn't do their job on that play, with a possibility that both of them played it incorrectly.

Typically in these alignments the RB is the responsibility of the outside cb and he will run a wheel or a route to the flat from that package. Also youd be insane to expect 6'4 Devondre Campbell to cover Alvin Kamara one on one while 5'10 horse face to cover a much bigger TE. You could see from that video that Campbell pointed to Trufart where he wanted to go, but 'Fart got greedy and wanted to jump the TE instead of doing his job.

TL;Dr Trufant sucks. 

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15 hours ago, Osiruz said:

Typically in these alignments the RB is the responsibility of the outside cb and he will run a wheel or a route to the flat from that package. Also youd be insane to expect 6'4 Devondre Campbell to cover Alvin Kamara one on one while 5'10 horse face to cover a much bigger TE. You could see from that video that Campbell pointed to Trufart where he wanted to go, but 'Fart got greedy and wanted to jump the TE instead of doing his job.

TL;Dr Trufant sucks. 

Oh my gosh.  I don't know how I didn't see it so clearly before.  His communication was so clear and obvious.  I could read his lips from here.  That quarter second halfway extended arm sweeping motion made it so clear.  Staring at the safety and extending his arm meant nothing, just trying to throw the defense off.  I see it now!  This is exactly the kind of communication we want between our defensive players. 

Our staff should use this video in team defense meetings so they all know what kind of communication we expect out of them.  

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2 hours ago, pzummo said:

Oh my gosh.  I don't know how I didn't see it so clearly before.  His communication was so clear and obvious.  I could read his lips from here.  That quarter second halfway extended arm sweeping motion made it so clear.  Staring at the safety and extending his arm meant nothing, just trying to throw the defense off.  I see it now!  This is exactly the kind of communication we want between our defensive players. 

Our staff should use this video in team defense meetings so they all know what kind of communication we expect out of them.  

I mean he pointed at the TE bro, I dont know what more needs to be said. AK also did exactly what you expect from that vanilla formation which is run a route to the flat area, the zone area that Trufant is supposed to cover. These guys have been playing football all their life, this should be a routine play. 

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15 minutes ago, Osiruz said:

I mean he pointed at the TE bro, I dont know what more needs to be said. AK also did exactly what you expect from that vanilla formation which is run a route to the flat area, the zone area that Trufant is supposed to cover. These guys have been playing football all their life, this should be a routine play. 

Yeah since 2015 with DQ he still didn’t know the supposedly simple defense. But he was CB1. Man pls!!

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It’s purely a miscommunication either Tru hasn’t heard or aware of Campbell’s intention and he’s done what he’s done.

Basically it’s a symptom of what crucified this defense the whole first half of the season.

Basically it’s probably one of the reasons both guys are now playing on other teams.

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42 minutes ago, kiwifalcon said:

It’s purely a miscommunication either Tru hasn’t heard or aware of Campbell’s intention and he’s done what he’s done.

Basically it’s a symptom of what crucified this defense the whole first half of the season.

Basically it’s probably one of the reasons both guys are now playing on other teams.

Trufant has been doing it for years, he did it last year and left Oloukon to guard both Kamara and Michael Thomas while he bailed on a basic slants play. Trufant may have good man cover skills but when it comes to zone defense he makes stupid decisions. 

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