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lju713

Henderson or K.Murray? Who makes the D better this season?

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We have a hole at CB, but IMO a player like Murray would take us to the next level. We face CMC,Kamara,OJ Howard,Brate,and Jared Cook 2x. Brady and Brees are statues and hopefully that helps our  pass rush a time or 2. They both love throwing to TE,RB,and underneath. Adding another eraser like K9 helps both the run D and pass. Murray and Debo in nickle sets is a nice combo.

Henderson is big and athletic. Breaks up passes, and played against the best competition. Has 2 or 3 pick six in his career. I would also love the pick, but I doubt his impact would be felt in yr 1. Unless he miraculously came away with Clowney too in FA, I dont like rookie CB coming into the league with a so-so pass rush. It exposes the rookie, and may shake their confidence. 

Who do you think would be a better fit of the 2? We all know Kinlaw,Brown,Simmons, and maybe Okudah would make(presumably)a bigger impact, but the will be gone by 16. Hopefully Henderson and Murray aren't. Who ya got?

Edited by lju713

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53 minutes ago, lju713 said:

We have a hole at CB, but IMO a player like Murray would take us to the next level. We face CMC,Kamara,OJ Howard,Brate,and Jared Cook 2x. Brady and Brees are statues and hopefully that helps our  pass rush a time or 2. They both love throwing to TE,RB,and underneath. Adding another eraser like K9 helps both the run D and pass. Murray and Debo in nickle sets is a nice combo.

Henderson is big and athletic. Breaks up passes, and played against the best competition. Has 2 or 3 pick six in his career. I would also love the pick, but I doubt his impact would be felt in yr 1. Unless he miraculously came away with Clowney too in FA, I dont like rookie CB coming into the league with a so-so pass rush. It exposes the rookie, and may shake their confidence. 

Who do you think would be a better fit of the 2? We all know Kinlaw,Brown,Simmons, and maybe Okudah would make(presumably)a bigger impact, but the will be gone by 16. Hopefully Henderson and Murray aren't. Who ya got?

Our starting CBS from the last 4 games of season are coming back plus a solid backup in BWW and whatever Kazee is as a nickel?

I don’t view a hole at CB as much as we literally don’t have a starter at LB after losing Campbell

 

Id take K9 over Henderson

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What impressed me the most when watching Murray & reading his scouting reports is how well he looks coming down hill.

Take the highlight clips with a grain of salt as they don't show a lot of Murray's indecision in a few other areas. Patrick Queen does both pretty darn well even though he hasn't played as long as Murray.

I couldn't help but think about McCaffrey & Kamara and how often they're called upon to catch flalts, screens & bubbles. Watch how fast Murray sniffs, clicks & explodes down hill on anything in front of him... 90% of his highlights are of his down hill abilities...

He also has a terrible habit of tackling around the collar, helmet & shoulder pads & I think it's tied to his not breaking down well & running past the play while not gathering himself.  This won't fly in the NFL I don't think.

 

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2 hours ago, lju713 said:

We have a hole at CB, but IMO a player like Murray would take us to the next level. We face CMC,Kamara,OJ Howard,Brate,and Jared Cook 2x. Brady and Brees are statues and hopefully that helps our  pass rush a time or 2. They both love throwing to TE,RB,and underneath. Adding another eraser like K9 helps both the run D and pass. Murray and Debo in nickle sets is a nice combo.

Henderson is big and athletic. Breaks up passes, and played against the best competition. Has 2 or 3 pick six in his career. I would also love the pick, but I doubt his impact would be felt in yr 1. Unless he miraculously came away with Clowney too in FA, I dont like rookie CB coming into the league with a so-so pass rush. It exposes the rookie, and may shake their confidence. 

Who do you think would be a better fit of the 2? We all know Kinlaw,Brown,Simmons, and maybe Okudah would make(presumably)a bigger impact, but the will be gone by 16. Hopefully Henderson and Murray aren't. Who ya got?

Murray was never asked to drop into coverage at Oklahoma. Can he learn? Possibly. But the backs you mentioned are more threatening in the passing game, where they present mismatches in coverage.

Murray has only demonstrated skill as an on-ball linebacker. Is that what the new 2021 coaching staff will want/need? Unclear. But a cover-corner is useful in every scheme.

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1 hour ago, Roanoke Falcon said:

Murray was never asked to drop into coverage at Oklahoma. Can he learn? Possibly. But the backs you mentioned are more threatening in the passing game, where they present mismatches in coverage.

Murray has only demonstrated skill as an on-ball linebacker. Is that what the new 2021 coaching staff will want/need? Unclear. But a cover-corner is useful in every scheme.

I’m big on Murray but it’s a scary thought asking him to match up one on one with a TE or RB down the field. Anything In the flats he will blow up, his speed will overwhelm in that area. His speed will overwhelm coming down hill. But that sounds a lot like Deion’s role on this D.

Now a healthy Keanu changes the need for him to cover down field in the sense that, IMO, we will see a lot of Keanu, Ricardo and Kazee on the field together. In line TEs my guess is Neal can come down on the line in a 4-3 under look and be stout enough to hold the edge on a TE but also allowing him to get his hands on guys early. TEs split out wide I think you’ll see a mixture of off looks by Neal, man up by Allen or Kazee with Keanu In his typical enforcer role to provide the presence needed with a smaller DB like Allen or Kazee to cheat outside and jump underneath bigger players knowing Neal is roaming.

So I don’t need Keanu to be everything he was, I just need him to be the enforcer he was in a smaller box.

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10 hours ago, 1989Fan said:

Generally speaking a LB will make an impact quicker.

Not if they are off the field on passing downs because they are a liability in coverage, and a blitz isn't called up. Unless Murray demonstrates coverage ability that was never exhibited in college, if he is strictly an on-ball rusher, his presence on passing downs will alert opposing QB's to a blitz and where it's coming from, or will spotlight their best target of opportunity if he DOES drop back.

Is he talented? Yes. Is he athletic? Absolutely. Could he actually have coverage skills that the Oklahoma coaches simply never utilized? That is an absolute possibility. But we cannot afford to use a #1 or our lone remaining #2 pick on a probable 1 or 2 down run-stopping/rush linebacker.

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1 hour ago, Roanoke Falcon said:

Not if they are off the field on passing downs because they are a liability in coverage, and a blitz isn't called up. Unless Murray demonstrates coverage ability that was never exhibited in college, if he is strictly an on-ball rusher, his presence on passing downs will alert opposing QB's to a blitz and where it's coming from, or will spotlight their best target of opportunity if he DOES drop back.

Is he talented? Yes. Is he athletic? Absolutely. Could he actually have coverage skills that the Oklahoma coaches simply never utilized? That is an absolute possibility. But we cannot afford to use a #1 or our lone remaining #2 pick on a probable 1 or 2 down run-stopping/rush linebacker.

I said LB in general, never specified Murray. For the record picking at 16 I would take a Henderson. He is gonna be good.

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You do realize that Murray was NEVER in coverage in college and he played in the highest scoring passing conference. Watch him swimming around lost against LSU and imagine him on every down in the NFL. His combine results have overrated him. He will take a minute to adjust to the NFL, if he ever does!

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CJ Henderson looks like a bust to me. He almost never makes plays on the ball. He's got the size and speed you'd like but not the production for someone with his measurables. 

Murray however has both the size, speed and production that I'd feel more confident about immediately translating to the NFL. Also CBs almost always struggle to translate to the NFL.

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Henderson would have an easier route to more immediate snaps in my opinion. I don't think Murray is an upgrade on Debo and Foye in coverage at this point, so he's only likely to see snaps at SAM in our base 4-3. 

Henderson would, at the very least start on the boundary in nickel (with Sheffield sliding inside). Given we're in nickel (and other sub packages) 70+ % of the time he'd likely make more of an impact.

In terms of defensive impact with our 1st pick, I think a penetrating DT or boundary corner is likely to have the biggest immediate return.

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15 hours ago, 1989Fan said:

Generally speaking a LB will make an impact quicker.

Agreed, generally speaking they provide more immediate returns. In this specific case, they'd need to be an upgrade on Foye in coverage to get the number of snaps needed to make that kind of impact. Simmons and Queen could be that guy, but Murray's coverage skills is not at that level at this point in his career.

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