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I know it's been done to death, but who would win? Ali or Tyson?


DonOfThemBirds
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Tyson would destroy post 5 year layoff Ali, but I think young Ali(Cassius Clay) would beat Tyson.

 

My reason why is look no further than his fights with Holyfield. Especially the 1st fight.

 

Tyson had a hard time with Holyfield's quickness, movement, and length for his size. Ali was a tad bit longer than Holyfield and was quicker than him as well. Holyfield didn't let Tyson get inside him much without tying him up and neutralizing his a game a good bit.

 

To be honest, Holyfield seems to be underrated to me when it comes to heavyweights because he gave Tyson fits. Holyfield was the perfect prototype to beat a fighter like Tyson.

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Ali in 7 in a very one sided fight.  Ali would have no fear of Ali which was what Tyson relied on.  Plus Ali’s length and overall boxing skill would win out.  
 

Tyson even said so during the height of his dominance

“From a boxing perspective, Ali is a ******* animal. He looks more like a model than a fighter. What he is is a Tyrannosaurus Rex with a pretty face. He’s just mean and evil. He’ll take you to deep water and drown you. He’s very special. Best in the world.

 

"Nobody beats Ali."

Tyson said: “There’s no man like him.

“Everything we have, he supersedes it.

“Nobody beats Ali, it’s not about the muscle memory it’s not about concentration it’s just about him doing it.

“I can’t beat that man, **** no f**k this (laughs).”

 

 

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14 minutes ago, JD dirtybird21 said:

I think elite polished boxers defeat Tyson. Mike was all power. He was a professional hitter, not a boxer. 

 

I think Tyson was a better boxer than given credit for though.

 

He was just smaller than most heavyweights and had the technique to beat HWs that weren't as quick and fast as he was. Especially once Tyson was able move inside of them with his power and speed.

 

Holyfield presented an unusual challenge to Tyson as a bigger HW who was about as quick as he was. Holyfield was a decent size hw but moved like a guy 2 weight classes smaller along with good length and reach.

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35 minutes ago, FalconsIn2012 said:

Ali in 7 in a very one sided fight.  Ali would have no fear of Ali which was what Tyson relied on.  Plus Ali’s length and overall boxing skill would win out.  
 

Tyson even said so during the height of his dominance

“From a boxing perspective, Ali is a ******* animal. He looks more like a model than a fighter. What he is is a Tyrannosaurus Rex with a pretty face. He’s just mean and evil. He’ll take you to deep water and drown you. He’s very special. Best in the world.

 

"Nobody beats Ali."

Tyson said: “There’s no man like him.

“Everything we have, he supersedes it.

“Nobody beats Ali, it’s not about the muscle memory it’s not about concentration it’s just about him doing it.

“I can’t beat that man, **** no f**k this (laughs).”

 

 

 

Are we talking about young Ali or older Ali once he returned to boxing?

 

I think young Ali gets Tyson. I don't think older Ali survives taking Tyson's punches.

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11 minutes ago, DawnOfThemBirds said:

 

Are we talking about young Ali or older Ali once he returned to boxing?

 

I think young Ali gets Tyson. I don't think older Ali survives taking Tyson's punches.

I would say until Manilla, Ali wins.  As Clay it would be one sided.  No fighter in the history of boxing beats 1967 Cassius Clay.  

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5 hours ago, FalconsIn2012 said:

I would say until Manilla, Ali wins.  As Clay it would be one sided.  No fighter in the history of boxing beats 1967 Cassius Clay.  

 

Fair enough. I 100% agree with Cassius Clay in 1967 being the best boxer ever.

 

Do you think the Ali of Thrilla in Manilla would've survived 14 rounds with a pre-Buster Douglas Tyson? I'm on the fence about that lol. Even if Ali were to go that distance with Tyson, his career probably would've ended after that fight because he would've been beaten up worse than what Frazier did to him.

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1 hour ago, DawnOfThemBirds said:

 

Fair enough. I 100% agree with Cassius Clay in 1967 being the best boxer ever.

 

Do you think the Ali of Thrilla in Manilla would've survived 14 rounds with a pre-Buster Douglas Tyson? I'm on the fence about that lol. Even if Ali were to go that distance with Tyson, his career probably would've ended after that fight because he would've been up worse than what Frazier did to him.

I honestly have no clue.  Tyson was such a head case that once he realized Ali wasn’t intimidated, the fight would be over.  And Ali could absorb Tyson’s best and keep coming.  That cripples a guy like Tyson.  
 

The only chance Tyson would have is pre championship Tyson, when Cus was still alive to guide and nurture him.  Once Cus died, Tyson the superhero died

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4 hours ago, FalconsIn2012 said:

I honestly have no clue.  Tyson was such a head case that once he realized Ali wasn’t intimidated, the fight would be over.  And Ali could absorb Tyson’s best and keep coming.  That cripples a guy like Tyson.  
 

The only chance Tyson would have is pre championship Tyson, when Cus was still alive to guide and nurture him.  Once Cus died, Tyson the superhero died

 

Yeah, the death of Cus D'Amato marked the start of the decline of Tyson.

 

The historic upset loss to Buster Douglas was an all-time fluke, but the biggest thing that happened was that it took away Tyson's invincibility in the eyes of opposing fighters. Iron Mike was the grim reaper to everyone before that loss to Douglas.

 

Fighters became more willing to actually fight with Tyson. Donovan Ruddock was slugging it out with him. I bet Ruddock and his camp would've been much more conservative if those two fights had happened before Tyson's loss to Douglas.

 

I think that could also be a similar problem that Wilder will face now that he has been beaten. Fighters will be more willing to go after him like Fury did and try to neutralize his punching power, which will make him very vulnerable.

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11 hours ago, DawnOfThemBirds said:

 

I think Tyson was a better boxer than given credit for though.

 

He was just smaller than most heavyweights and had the technique to beat HWs that weren't as quick and fast as he was. Especially once Tyson was able move inside of them with his power and speed.

 

Holyfield presented an unusual challenge to Tyson as a bigger HW who was about as quick as he was. Holyfield was a decent size hw but moved like a guy 2 weight classes smaller along with good length and reach.

He absolutely was a better technical fighter than most credit him for.  When Cus was alive Tyson was motivated, prepared and could counter to set up his kill shots.  Who knows how good Tyson could have been if Cus lives another 20 years.

Tyson was a boxing historian.  Watched more fight film than any professional analyst by a long shot.  Unfortunately, after cuss died Tyson surrounded himself with yes men.  And then married Givens and that was all she wrote.

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17 hours ago, DawnOfThemBirds said:

 

Tyson would destroy post 5 year layoff Ali, but I think young Ali(Cassius Clay) would beat Tyson.

 

My reason why is look no further than his fights with Holyfield. Especially the 1st fight.

 

Tyson had a hard time with Holyfield's quickness, movement, and length for his size. Ali was a tad bit longer than Holyfield and was quicker than him as well. Holyfield didn't let Tyson get inside him much without tying him up and neutralizing his a game a good bit.

 

To be honest, Holyfield seems to be underrated to me when it comes to heavyweights because he gave Tyson fits. Holyfield was the perfect prototype to beat a fighter like Tyson.

Tough to say. Both of these guys in their primes were absolute technical monsters. But honestly, I think Tyson's style would play into Ali's hand, because Tyson typically charged in (especially against significantly taller fighters, which most heavyweights were) and Ali liked to circle around and stay on his opponents outside shoulder (if orthodox) and throw that jab. That said, Tyson was lightning quick and an excellent counter puncher, and usually once he got inside your guard it was lights out for his opponents.

It would be interesting to see that clash of styles and how Tyson would deal with Ali. On paper though, I'd give the edge to Ali because he's taller and longer. But I wouldn't count out Tyson to figure out a way to deal with Ali's length, because that's what he pretty much always had to deal with.

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17 hours ago, JD dirtybird21 said:

I think elite polished boxers defeat Tyson. Mike was all power. He was a professional hitter, not a boxer. 

This is just a flat out lie. Cus Damato Tyson could outbox and was outboxing every cat that stepped into the ring with him. He just hit harder than most, if not all of them. That's what made him such a scary opponent. Holyfield wanted no parts of that Tyson.

Watch his fight against Mitch Green. Tyson was pretty much toying with this guy.

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I will always say Ali, but like others have stated, young Cus d'mato & Rooney led Tyson was completely different than what we saw later on even before prison. 

He did box and setup punches and was very difficult to hit with the peek a boo style and head movement. Unfortunately we only saw this Tyson for a little bit, and against inferior competition that was often defeated before the bell rung. Fame, fortune, lack of control & guidance, just led to a quick downfall. 

Ali's size, quickness, and skill would frustrate him all night probably like it did others pre-exile.

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Tyson is the most explosive puncher I've ever seen, relentless once he gets inside but against technically polished, bigger heavyweights (Fury, Lewis, Klitschko's etc) he just wouldn't get close enough. I think a prime Ali would win 9/10 times (Tyson will always have a punchers chance in any fight).

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10 hours ago, Smiler11 said:

Tyson is the most explosive puncher I've ever seen, relentless once he gets inside but against technically polished, bigger heavyweights (Fury, Lewis, Klitschko's etc) he just wouldn't get close enough. I think a prime Ali would win 9/10 times (Tyson will always have a punchers chance in any fight).

Tyson would destroy Fury (yeah I know how that sounds). We often talk about Mike's power, but he had incredible hand speed. A lot of his knockouts weren't just because he hit hard, but also because his opponents didn't see it coming. I don't think Fury could deal with Tyson's lateral quickness and counterpunching, peek-a-boo style.

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Just now, Mr.11 said:

Tyson would destroy Fury (yeah I know how that sounds). We often talk about Mike's power, but he had incredible hand speed. A lot of his knockouts weren't just because he hit hard, but also because his opponents didn't see it coming. I don't think Fury could deal with Tyson's lateral quickness and counterpunching, peek-a-boo style.

I don't see it and I loved Tyson. Fury is 6-9, with a long reach and awkward to land a glove on. He's also got a good chin. I don't think he gets enough credit for how technically good a boxer he is.

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31 minutes ago, Smiler11 said:

I don't see it and I loved Tyson. Fury is 6-9, with a long reach and awkward to land a glove on. He's also got a good chin. I don't think he gets enough credit for how technically good a boxer he is.

I'll grant you that Fury is a technically sound boxer. But he's not nearly as fast as Tyson. Tyson almost always fought against guys taller than him, that's why he was always moving his head and moving laterally, which made him really hard to hit even for guys with long reach. I imagine Tyson would repeatedly blast Fury with body shots until he dropped his hands to protect himself and then start targeting the head with uppercuts and hooks.

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41 minutes ago, Mr.11 said:

I'll grant you that Fury is a technically sound boxer. But he's not nearly as fast as Tyson. Tyson almost always fought against guys taller than him, that's why he was always moving his head and moving laterally, which made him really hard to hit even for guys with long reach. I imagine Tyson would repeatedly blast Fury with body shots until he dropped his hands to protect himself and then start targeting the head with uppercuts and hooks.

Tyson was 5-10 so everyone he fought looked tall. He never fought someone the size of Fury who could actually move and box. It's a different division now - most of the guys Tyson fought were closer in size to light heavyweights and nowhere near the likes of Fury and the Klitschko's. The only glimpse you've got is the Tyson v Lewis fight where Lewis just bullied Tyson with his size and reach advantage.

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2 minutes ago, Smiler11 said:

Tyson was 5-10 so everyone he fought looked tall. He never fought someone the size of Fury who could actually move and box. It's a different division now - most of the guys Tyson fought were closer in size to light heavyweights and nowhere near the likes of Fury and the Klitschko's. The only glimpse you've got is the Tyson v Lewis fight where Lewis just bullied Tyson with his size and reach advantage.

I agree with you. As dynamic as Tyson was, I think he would struggle against these big guys, namely the 4 you mentioned, that fight behind their jab and eventually just wear/beat you down. Getting pummeled round after round is demoralizing to anyone.

Granted again we only saw the best of Tyson at a very young age before his career went off the tracks.

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3 hours ago, Smiler11 said:

Tyson was 5-10 so everyone he fought looked tall. He never fought someone the size of Fury who could actually move and box. It's a different division now - most of the guys Tyson fought were closer in size to light heavyweights and nowhere near the likes of Fury and the Klitschko's. The only glimpse you've got is the Tyson v Lewis fight where Lewis just bullied Tyson with his size and reach advantage.

Most of the guys Tyson fought were about Wilder's size. Heck Mitch Green and Biggs were 6'5 and Tyson embarrassed them.

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6 hours ago, Mr.11 said:

Most of the guys Tyson fought were about Wilder's size. Heck Mitch Green and Biggs were 6'5 and Tyson embarrassed them.

Fury has 4-5 inches and 40-50lbs on those guys. Tyson struggled with Green and Lennox Lewis bullied him. 

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