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The Pocket Passer Is Dying. Long Live the Mobile Quarterback.


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5 minutes ago, Osiruz said:

Top 4 in both yards and tds and never been done once in history ever. You are literally shooting yourself in the foot and proving my argument. Thanks! 

Dude you had him 17th and 10th. Of course I'm gonna go high if you're gonna go that low.

I'll meet you in the middle and say 6th yards and top 10 in TDs.

3500yds and 23tds.

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I remember hearing about all this with Vick.  Then with Cam.  Then with RGIII.  Then with Kaepernick.  Meanwhile Brady can't make a fist with all those rings.   

For now. Everything is cyclical. Once DCs change philosophies and even players then someone will change QB style again. Just find the best player and things will sort themselves out. 

@mqg96 @Sir Joe™ There are old quarterbacks.  There are mobile quarterbacks. You know what you don’t see?  Old mobile QBs. Those hits add up.  Cam is the latest example, and he was

9 minutes ago, Ovie_Lover said:

Dude you had him 17th and 10th. Of course I'm gonna go high if you're gonna go that low.

I'll meet you in the middle and say 6th yards and top 10 in TDs.

3500yds and 23tds.

Top 10 in yards Tds would be 3450 yards and 21 Tds. If so then I agree if hes not missing significant PT. 

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2 minutes ago, Osiruz said:

Top 10 in yards Tds would be 3450 yards and 21 Tds. If so then I agree if hes not missing significant PT. 

You're lucky I went as low as I did dude. You and your clowns have been saying Burrow is better than Ryan, comparing him to Montana, etc but you expect him to have a fringe top 10 year for a rookie? LOL ok. Shows how confident you really are in him.

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32 minutes ago, Ovie_Lover said:

You're lucky I went as low as I did dude. You and your clowns have been saying Burrow is better than Ryan, comparing him to Montana, etc but you expect him to have a fringe top 10 year for a rookie? LOL ok. Shows how confident you really are in him.

Those numbers are better than Ryan's rookie numbers and you basically want him to be top 10 all time to prove to you hes not a bust. Still a self defeating argument lol. 

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10 minutes ago, Osiruz said:

Those numbers are better than Ryan's rookie numbers and you basically want him to be top 10 all time to prove to you hes not a bust. Still a self defeating argument lol. 

Top 10 ROOKIE. If Baker can do it so can he. Unless you think he can't?

And again 2008 vs 2020 are very different years for the NFL. That was 13th for 2008 but would have been 19th for 2019.

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On 1/15/2020 at 0:16 PM, JDaveG said:

I guess most of my issue is I don't see Ryan as "immobile" in the sense people seem to be using the term now.  It's not his strongest trait, granted, but it is also pretty far from the most important trait a QB can have. If Rodgers is a "mobile QB," then Ryan is plenty mobile to be effective in the NFL.  He can get yards with his feet when he needs to, and he has.  He can escape the pocket and get the ball out when he needs to, and he has.  He's not Russell Wilson or even Aaron Rodgers, granted.  But my overarching point is that both Wilson and Rodgers are pocket passers.  They are not what anyone prior to basically this thread being started would consider "mobile QBs."  They operate first and foremost from the pocket and they are really, really good at it.  If they couldn't, all the mobility in the world would not correct that.

There are some who are both mobile and pocket passers.  Vick when he was in Philly was.  Newton has been at points in his career.  I think DeSean Watson is.  I think Mahomes is.  And I think it's true that those types of players are going to be considered more and more to be valuable in the NFL.  But if you have to have one or the other, you take the ability to make plays from the pocket first.  Because that's the QB's job.  Mobility, the ability to escape and rush or extend the play with your legs, is a nice attribute to have, but it will never eclipse the ability to read and diagnose defenses and make plays from the pocket.  It will always be secondary.

There are varying degrees of mobility. Unfortunately Ryan is less mobile than most modern QBs. That isn’t to say that he can’t make a play with his legs, it’s just not something that he does consistently and I don’t believe it’s something opposing DCs game plan for. I disagree with putting Rodgers and Ryan into the same category in terms of mobility. 

That’s It’s fair to say that all QBs have to learn in the pocket first, since they start there. Being mobile and a pocket passer aren’t mutually exclusive, you can be both. However it’s becoming less acceptable to not be mobile. It’s the just the nature of the game right now. Especially with how athletically gifted the defenses are. Pocket passers will never go away, however it’s going to be a much harder to diagnose plays and read defenses with that much speed. That’s why OCs are in such hot demand lately. 

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5 minutes ago, Cole World said:

 

The ugly part is HE should be developed as a future starter.  Better arm, mobility than Ryan and looked good in the preseason. If it weren't for that huge overpayent of Ryan's contract, they could trade Ryan right now and make him the starter...

Edited by Spts1
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14 hours ago, quotemokc said:

Mahomes is much more pocket passer than mobile quarterback.

Mahomes runs when its very advantageous to do so.  There was one drive where basically the WHOLE drive was him running for first downs because Tennessee was dropping into coverage.  Even when he doesn't run, just the FACT he CAN run makes the defense hesitant.  You have to have PLAYMAKERS at key positions.  Heck, Tannehill is a playmaker.  I liked him when he was with the Dolphins and got scapegoated because of that horrible organization.  Josh Allen is a playmaker.  Those are the types of quarterbacks that are VERY dangerous and the NFL is going towards...

 

Image result for mahomes touchdown run against tennessee

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8 hours ago, Spts1 said:

Mahomes runs when its very advantageous to do so.  There was one drive where basically the WHOLE drive was him running for first downs because Tennessee was dropping into coverage.  Even when he doesn't run, just the FACT he CAN run makes the defense hesitant.  You have to have PLAYMAKERS at key positions.  Heck, Tannehill is a playmaker.  I liked him when he was with the Dolphins and got scapegoated because of that horrible organization.  Josh Allen is a playmaker.  Those are the types of quarterbacks that are VERY dangerous and the NFL is going towards...

 

Image result for mahomes touchdown run against tennessee

^ This. People keep equating rushing yards to mobility. That’s not the case. I would like to see stats on throwing yards gained in the pocket vs outside the pocket.

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14 minutes ago, Sidecar Falcon said:

^ This. People keep equating rushing yards to mobility. That’s not the case. I would like to see stats on throwing yards gained in the pocket vs outside the pocket.

Can be a very misleading stat there as well.  Wilson bails from the pocket early a lot and invites pressure that wasn’t actually there.  Watson is similar, dude holds the ball forever.  Point is, it isn’t always a good thing that they are running out of the pocket for some QBs.

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10 hours ago, Spts1 said:

The ugly part is HE should be developed as a future starter.  Better arm, mobility than Ryan and looked good in the preseason. If it weren't for that huge overpayent of Ryan's contract, they could trade Ryan right now and make him the starter...

That would be amazing for the cap and allow this team to retool at multiple key positions in FA thus improving the overall team and not much drop off(maybe improvement in some areas) at QB since Julio is still running this league.

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15 hours ago, Rings said:

Can be a very misleading stat there as well.  Wilson bails from the pocket early a lot and invites pressure that wasn’t actually there.  Watson is similar, dude holds the ball forever.  Point is, it isn’t always a good thing that they are running out of the pocket for some QBs.

Wilson bails out of the pocket early because his offensive line has been awful. Not sure how him having to run for his life is his fault.

27. Seattle Seahawks

Since entering the league, there has been no quarterback that has been more accustomed to pressure than Russell Wilson. He has faced pressure on 42% of his dropbacks since entering the NFL, and he is the only qualifying quarterback since 2012 with a rate over 40%. Wilson has been able to succeed despite the pass protection from his line, but that doesn’t change the fact that it has often been an issue — and it was a problem again this season. The Seahawks' pressure rate allowed in 2.5 seconds or less of 26.7% this year was third worst in the league, ahead of only the Jets and Dolphins.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-line-rankings-following-2019-regular-season

Houston's offensive line improved over last season but they still were pretty average this season.

Holding onto the ball can happen when QBs are forced out of the pocket before their routes develop. Scrambling out of the pocket extends the play and gives them time to make plays happen. Bottom line is that they are as successful as they are because their mobility can help mitigate deficiencies for aspects of their team.

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4 hours ago, Sidecar Falcon said:

Wilson bails out of the pocket early because his offensive line has been awful. Not sure how him having to run for his life is his fault.

27. Seattle Seahawks

Since entering the league, there has been no quarterback that has been more accustomed to pressure than Russell Wilson. He has faced pressure on 42% of his dropbacks since entering the NFL, and he is the only qualifying quarterback since 2012 with a rate over 40%. Wilson has been able to succeed despite the pass protection from his line, but that doesn’t change the fact that it has often been an issue — and it was a problem again this season. The Seahawks' pressure rate allowed in 2.5 seconds or less of 26.7% this year was third worst in the league, ahead of only the Jets and Dolphins.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-line-rankings-following-2019-regular-season

Houston's offensive line improved over last season but they still were pretty average this season.

Holding onto the ball can happen when QBs are forced out of the pocket before their routes develop. Scrambling out of the pocket extends the play and gives them time to make plays happen. Bottom line is that they are as successful as they are because their mobility can help mitigate deficiencies for aspects of their team.

The same site you quoted also uses both of the QBs I mentioned at creating their own pressure that wasn’t there because they hold onto the ball too long playing hero ball.  They create some amazing plays by doing it, but they also put themselves in some bad situations that weren’t the lines fault, which was my point.  Neither of them have good lines, but if you and I know that, they need to as well and get rid of the ball quicker.

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On 1/21/2020 at 6:43 PM, Rings said:

The same site you quoted also uses both of the QBs I mentioned at creating their own pressure that wasn’t there because they hold onto the ball too long playing hero ball.  They create some amazing plays by doing it, but they also put themselves in some bad situations that weren’t the lines fault, which was my point.  Neither of them have good lines, but if you and I know that, they need to as well and get rid of the ball quicker.

All QBs, mobile and not, place themselves in bad positions at points. Point is that their offensive lines contribute to them “holding onto the ball too long”. Yet they still make plays. They may rarely do it when it isn’t necessary but they still extend the play.

Place a non-mobile QB behind those lines and you will have diminished play. When it comes down to it the pocket passer needs to evolve. All things being equal in terms of pocket presence, mobility is quickly becoming a determining factor.   

I doubt we’ll see another Peyton anytime soon in terms of having extremely high football IQ and being slower than molasses. More than likely we’ll see more QBs that have higher athletic ability and need a little more “seasoning” in terms of reads. This isn’t a good or bad thing, just a trend. Eventually it’ll balance out. Either way I believe mobility is going to be a weighted metric by NFL scouts in the foreseeable future. 

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1 hour ago, Sidecar Falcon said:

All QBs, mobile and not, place themselves in bad positions at points. Point is that their offensive lines contribute to them “holding onto the ball too long”. Yet they still make plays. They may rarely do it when it isn’t necessary but they still extend the play.

Place a non-mobile QB behind those lines and you will have diminished play. When it comes down to it the pocket passer needs to evolve. All things being equal in terms of pocket presence, mobility is quickly becoming a determining factor.   

I doubt we’ll see another Peyton anytime soon in terms of having extremely high football IQ and being slower than molasses. More than likely we’ll see more QBs that have higher athletic ability and need a little more “seasoning” in terms of reads. This isn’t a good or bad thing, just a trend. Eventually it’ll balance out. Either way I believe mobility is going to be a weighted metric by NFL scouts in the foreseeable future. 

I agree with everything you said, I just think sometimes those lines look worse than they are (at times) because they hold it so long.  Just like you can only ask a corner to cover so long, you can only ask an oline to block for a certain amount of time.  Ryan even created some of his own sacks this year, but it past years people complained he threw the ball away too often.  Double edged sword I guess.

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On 1/24/2020 at 7:33 AM, Rings said:

I agree with everything you said, I just think sometimes those lines look worse than they are (at times) because they hold it so long.  Just like you can only ask a corner to cover so long, you can only ask an oline to block for a certain amount of time.  Ryan even created some of his own sacks this year, but it past years people complained he threw the ball away too often.  Double edged sword I guess.

I do agree that QBs (in general) can make an offensive line look bad, and vice versa. I disagree with the notion that Wilson/Watson do this on a consistent enough basis to completely change the narrative on how poor/average their OL plays.
 

Ryan held onto the ball too long due to poor scheme and play calling. He also didn’t get nearly enough time to throw the ball due to our OL being a turnstile. Increased mobility could have mitigated the aforementioned issues, not by much, but some.
 

Mobility isn’t the end all, be all. However when you have a combination of long developing plays with a short time to throw. Any sort of ability that can keep the QB upright would only help. 

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