Sidecar Falcon

The Pocket Passer Is Dying. Long Live the Mobile Quarterback.

589 posts in this topic

8 hours ago, AUTiger7222 said:

 

He went untouched on the 38 yard TD run...85% of the backs in the league make that run as well as SF sold out to stop the run up the gut.

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5 hours ago, Vandy said:

He’s more than pretty good, but he also was way overhyped coming into this game by National media. He  did not have what I’d call a good game yesterday, much less an mvp caliber game.

 

He’s  definitely off to a HOF-like start to his career. But a lot can happen, so all I’m saying is let’s slow the best ever roll down a little. 

Edit: (Not saying either of you are doing that)

Mahomes has never lost an NFL game by more than a TD. He has kept his team competitive in every game so far in his career. 

He led the team to a 5-0 record when down double digits this season.

Went 3-0 in the playoffs after being down double digits in every game. 

And led a 24-0 comeback.

The dude can not be overhyped. 

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10 hours ago, No.11 said:

Concept? There's more than one way to win a game dude. For all the criticism that Kyle gets, some deserved, one of the biggest reasons the Niners lost is that Jimmy G missed throws and reads. Throws that Ryan makes and puts the game out of reach for the Chiefs. His lack of mobility isn't the reason the Niners lost. If "lack of mobility" is the primary reason your QB couldn't perform, then your problem isn't the QB, it's that your O-line really isn't blocking well enough. Even Mahomes struggled when the Niners defense turned up the heat in the 3rd quarter.

I could almost guarantee you that if Ryan was the Niners QB, that game is a blowout. With the way the run game was humming, he'd be shredding that Chiefs defense with play action. Ryan identifies mismatches and holes in a defense as good as any QB in the league. When you can do that as quickly as Ryan, Brees, and Brady can, you don't have to be as mobile as Mahomes, Wilson, Watson, or Lamar Jackson. If your line can block for an average of 3 seconds, he'll pick you apart. If you're constantly having to run or extend plays, it either means your receiving corps sucks, you as a QB need to get better at reading defenses and anticipating openings, you as a QB need to get better at throwing accurately from the pocket, or all three.

Loooool this is such a terrible take. I guess thats why their career QB ratings are all higher than Ryans huh? Wilson, Watson, Mahomes and Lamar just all can’t seem to throw very accurately from the pocket or anticipate any openings I guess. lmfaooo

Look we all know there is ONLY one way to win a game in the NFL....... y0u HAvE tO bE MobILe. Like what are you even saying? your strawmans are incredibly annoying.

Your hypotheticals of how Ryan is blowing anyone out the water w/o Julio is not grounded in any amount of reality or is based on any concrete evidence. Your fanboyism has clouded you with a thick cloud of bias.

 

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15 hours ago, Schwarzwald said:

What’s sad is you seem to think Ryan hasn’t done this or is incapable. No one is accounting for the QB and you run when they overplay their coverages. Simple. It buys you another play. Not the same thing as a 7 step drop when multiple OL get beat off the snap. You act like Mahomes was shrugging off tacklers ala Vick left and right. That isn’t what happened. In fact, Mahomes couldn’t get it done on his own last night. His RB and Defense bought him time and series; even overcoming his turnovers. Ryan isn’t the perfect one tho! :rolleyes: 

Mahomes is a true example of an MVP and why stats tell nowhere near the whole story and do not win you games. Making plays that matter at the right time will always trump a good stat line in the box score. He started out rocky but MADE the PLAYS at the end of the game that MATTERED. 

He avoided sacks, kept plays alive and really turned it on in crunch time deep in the 4th quarter to seal the win. There was no sack in FG range, getting stood up 4 downs in the redzone, or any inability to score when points were needed in the end. He used every tool in his arsenal to bring it home despite what he had to overcome with an OL that forgot how to passblock.

You can’t always expect your OL to give you 4+ seconds in the pocket to scan the field and make on target throws. Sometimes you have to make something happen and take what the OL gives you. Passrush is way more effective against QBs that have 2 left feet and a weak arm.

Edited by Jerz #Quinning
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1 hour ago, Jerz #Quinning said:

Loooool this is such a terrible take. I guess thats why their career QB ratings are all higher than Ryans huh? Wilson, Watson, Mahomes and Lamar just all can’t seem to throw very accurately from the pocket or anticipate any openings I guess. lmfaooo

Look we all know there is ONLY one way to win a game in the NFL....... y0u HAvE tO bE MobILe. Like what are you even saying? your strawmans are incredibly annoying.

Your hypotheticals of how Ryan is blowing anyone out the water w/o Julio is not grounded in any amount of reality or is based on any concrete evidence. Your fanboyism has clouded you with a thick cloud of bias.

 

Oh please, you don't even know what a straw man argument is. The fact that you're accusing me of that while still gushing over Mahomes and his "mobility" is proof of that. Your whole schtick has been about how mobile QBs are the future of the league, yadayada "defenses are getting too fast" blah blah and whatever other tired excuses you keep throwing out there. 

The fact that you're putting words in my mouth about Wilson, Watson, Mahomes, and Lamar just goes to show you like to cherry pick small sample sizes or one offs to prove a moot point.

Mahomes is a generational talent. But dude got beat at home last year by 42 year old statue Tom Brady. Lamar is a generational talent. Dude got beat at home by a retread QB who didn't even crack 100 yards passing that game. I could keep going with this.

I'm a fanboy. Of what? Critical thinking? Yeah I guess you're right. 

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2 hours ago, Jerz #Quinning said:

Loooool this is such a terrible take. I guess thats why their career QB ratings are all higher than Ryans huh? Wilson, Watson, Mahomes and Lamar just all can’t seem to throw very accurately from the pocket or anticipate any openings I guess. lmfaooo

Look we all know there is ONLY one way to win a game in the NFL....... y0u HAvE tO bE MobILe. Like what are you even saying? your strawmans are incredibly annoying.

Your hypotheticals of how Ryan is blowing anyone out the water w/o Julio is not grounded in any amount of reality or is based on any concrete evidence. Your fanboyism has clouded you with a thick cloud of bias.

 

They build up and make excuses for non athletic statues while at the same time,  tear down and discredit dual threat quarterbacks.  It's the same lies the NFL used for years to ARTIFICIALLY keep the dual threats from playing quarterback and giving the quarterback position to statues.  Mahomes is a problem for them because you can't find any holes in his game.

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2 hours ago, Jerz #Quinning said:

Mahomes is a true example of an MVP and why stats tell nowhere near the whole story and do not win you games. Making plays that matter at the right time will always trump a good stat line in the box score. He started out rocky but MADE the PLAYS at the end of the game that MATTERED. 

He avoided sacks, kept plays alive and really turned it on in crunch time deep in the 4th quarter to seal the win. There was no sack in FG range, getting stood up 4 downs in the redzone, or any inability to score when points were needed in the end. He used every tool in his arsenal to bring it home despite what he had to overcome with an OL that forgot how to passblock.

You can’t always expect your OL to give you 4+ seconds in the pocket to scan the field and make on target throws. Sometimes you have to make something happen and take what the OL gives you. Passrush is way more effective against QBs that have 2 left feet and a weak arm.

This 100000000%

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36 minutes ago, Spts1 said:

They build up and make excuses for non athletic statues while at the same time,  tear down and discredit dual threat quarterbacks.  It's the same lies the NFL used for years to ARTIFICIALLY keep the dual threats from playing quarterback and giving the quarterback position to statues.  Mahomes is a problem for them because you can't find any holes in his game.

True, true!!!

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 Just an observation; mobile or stationary qb's that are most effective seem to have a sixth sense of awareness in the pocket. The game seems to slow down for them. When they are "on" nobody gets to them. I see a lot of that in Mahomes now. Very entertaining to watch. Have seen it in many others as well. Some qb's get pressured and are "deers in headlights dead", while the greats can slide or move as needed to succeed. Either talent is a big factor in todays qb's.                                                                     

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5 minutes ago, Charles Wright said:

 Just an observation; mobile or stationary qb's that are most effective seem to have a sixth sense of awareness in the pocket. The game seems to slow down for them. When they are "on" nobody gets to them. I see a lot of that in Mahomes now. Very entertaining to watch. Have seen it in many others as well. Some qb's get pressured and are "deers in headlights dead", while the greats can slide or move as needed to succeed. Either talent is a big factor in todays qb's.                                                                     

Excellent analogy!! And we have heard that phrase "Deer in the headlights" on this forum MANNNNNNNNNNY times when referring to MR and pressure from the defense. 

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2 hours ago, Jerz #Quinning said:

Mahomes is a true example of an MVP and why stats tell nowhere near the whole story and do not win you games. Making plays that matter at the right time will always trump a good stat line in the box score. He started out rocky but MADE the PLAYS at the end of the game that MATTERED. 

He avoided sacks, kept plays alive and really turned it on in crunch time deep in the 4th quarter to seal the win. There was no sack in FG range, getting stood up 4 downs in the redzone, or any inability to score when points were needed in the end. He used every tool in his arsenal to bring it home despite what he had to overcome with an OL that forgot how to passblock.

You can’t always expect your OL to give you 4+ seconds in the pocket to scan the field and make on target throws. Sometimes you have to make something happen and take what the OL gives you. Passrush is way more effective against QBs that have 2 left feet and a weak arm.

So the game didn’t matter when he threw those two Ints?

He had his moments, but overall he wasn’t the difference in the game. 

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3 hours ago, Jerz #Quinning said:

Mahomes is a true example of an MVP and why stats tell nowhere near the whole story and do not win you games. Making plays that matter at the right time will always trump a good stat line in the box score. He started out rocky but MADE the PLAYS at the end of the game that MATTERED. 

He avoided sacks, kept plays alive and really turned it on in crunch time deep in the 4th quarter to seal the win. There was no sack in FG range, getting stood up 4 downs in the redzone, or any inability to score when points were needed in the end. He used every tool in his arsenal to bring it home despite what he had to overcome with an OL that forgot how to passblock.

You can’t always expect your OL to give you 4+ seconds in the pocket to scan the field and make on target throws. Sometimes you have to make something happen and take what the OL gives you. Passrush is way more effective against QBs that have 2 left feet and a weak arm.

Bingo...

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47 minutes ago, Charles Wright said:

 Just an observation; mobile or stationary qb's that are most effective seem to have a sixth sense of awareness in the pocket. The game seems to slow down for them. When they are "on" nobody gets to them. I see a lot of that in Mahomes now. Very entertaining to watch. Have seen it in many others as well. Some qb's get pressured and are "deers in headlights dead", while the greats can slide or move as needed to succeed. Either talent is a big factor in todays qb's.                                                                     

The best non mobile quarterback ever was Dan Marino.  Forget the Brady hype.  Brady has players around him that made HIM great.  Thats why they whining about him not having receivers this past season.  Marino didn't need help like that. The arm talent, QUICK release and pocket awareness made him unstoppable.

My point is a statue CAN be effective.  The point of this thread is that a dual threat is waaaaaay harder to keep under control. A dual threat makes playing offense 50 to 75 percent easier than having a statue back there...

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42 minutes ago, Vandy said:

So the game didn’t matter when he threw those two Ints?

He had his moments, but overall he wasn’t the difference in the game. 

He made the plays that counted. How many times do you need to see Ryan march the Falcons into redzone and then throw the ball out of bounds because he doesn't have the arm talent to challenge tight coverage down there AND teams don't worry about him running tbe ball in for a touchdown. 

Ryan is a bunch of empty stats, thats it. Ryan got the best receiver in the game. A BIG target in Julio and he can't get the ball to him in redzone.  If Julio wasnt such a nice guy he would have BEEN called Ryan out on it. Let that be Owens, Moss, Carter, Beckham, etc. It would have been a issue...

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1 hour ago, No.11 said:

Oh please, you don't even know what a straw man argument is. The fact that you're accusing me of that while still gushing over Mahomes and his "mobility" is proof of that. Your whole schtick has been about how mobile QBs are the future of the league, yadayada "defenses are getting too fast" blah blah and whatever other tired excuses you keep throwing out there. 

The fact that you're putting words in my mouth about Wilson, Watson, Mahomes, and Lamar just goes to show you like to cherry pick small sample sizes or one offs to prove a moot point.

Mahomes is a generational talent. But dude got beat at home last year by 42 year old statue Tom Brady. Lamar is a generational talent. Dude got beat at home by a retread QB who didn't even crack 100 yards passing that game. I could keep going with this.

I'm a fanboy. Of what? Critical thinking? Yeah I guess you're right. 

So maybe teams should go for retreads or 42 year old QB’s...like what is your point? Its still a team sport but QB’s that CAN do more will be held in higher regard. 

I almost have to spell everything out for you because you will go off on a tangent of terrible assumptions and strawmans to give you some juice to argue against.

Even if I was gushing over Mahomes, how could you not? Do you even watch football?

Do you have any idea of the advantage a QB with both pocket passing instincts and an athletic profile that is close to skill positions can do? You’re being incredibly dense on this topic for what? Matt Ryan really mean that much to you?

lmao I mean come on are you really that insecure about QB’s that can run and avoid pressure on the regular while being able to be good passers? It’s honestly sad man. 

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1 minute ago, Spts1 said:

He made the plays that counted. How many times do you need to see Ryan march the Falcons into redzone and then throw the ball out of bounds because he doesn't have the arm talent to challenge tight coverage down there AND teams don't worry about him running tbe ball in for a touchdown. 

Ryan is a bunch of empty stats, thats it. Ryan got the best receiver in the game. A BIG target in Julio and he can't get the ball to him in redzone.  If Julio wasnt such a nice guy he would have BEEN called Ryan out on it. Let that be Owens, Moss, Carter, Beckham, etc. It would have been a issue...

Exactly. He has one of the greatest receivers of ALL TIME and can barely get him more than double digit TD’s in the regular season. 

A “top 5” future HOF QB with the best WR in the game should be unstoppable but we are constantly stopped. The production we get out of those 2 does not make up the price we pay for them. It’s almost entirely because of Ryan and OC ineptitude. 

A QB that had a stronger arm and could regularly avoid sacks and buy time in the pocket would easily put up 20TDs in a season with Julio.

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4 minutes ago, Jerz #Quinning said:

So maybe teams should go for retreads or 42 year old QB’s...like what is your point? Its still a team sport but QB’s that CAN do more will be held in higher regard. 

I almost have to spell everything out for you because you will go off on a tangent of terrible assumptions and strawmans to give you some juice to argue against.

Even if I was gushing over Mahomes, how could you not? Do you even watch football?

Do you have any idea of the advantage a QB with both pocket passing instincts and an athletic profile that is close to skill positions can do? You’re being incredibly dense on this topic for what? Matt Ryan really mean that much to you?

lmao I mean come on are you really that insecure about QB’s that can run and avoid pressure on the regular while being able to be good passers? It’s honestly sad man. 

Yeap..:lol:     and the Falcons front office sees that a segment of the fanbase wants to keep Ryan so they enable this.  Meanwhile other teams are dumping veterans for dual threats and going to the playoffs...

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55 minutes ago, Vandy said:

So the game didn’t matter when he threw those two Ints?

He had his moments, but overall he wasn’t the difference in the game. 

It mattered to an extent since it was still time in the game to redeem yourself..which he did.

I’d take that stat line and a win over a perfect QB rating while coming up short in the biggest game of the season anyday.

He made plays towards the end of the game to seal the win. 

After that huge Sammy Watkins reception I had no question in my mind that Mahomes would get it done in the redzone unlike Matt did against the Eagles.

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13 minutes ago, Jerz #Quinning said:

Exactly. He has one of the greatest receivers of ALL TIME and can barely get him more than double digit TD’s in the regular season. 

A “top 5” future HOF QB with the best WR in the game should be unstoppable but we are constantly stopped. The production we get out of those 2 does not make up the price we pay for them. It’s almost entirely because of Ryan and OC ineptitude. 

A QB that had a stronger arm and could regularly avoid sacks and buy time in the pocket would easily put up 20TDs in a season with Julio.

Exactly.  Its the elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about.  You don't ever see Julio getting extended play throws from Ryan. Its one read to Julio and if its covered, he goes to the second option or gets sacked.  With Mahomes, the receivers get TONS of extended play passes because Mahomes has moved out of the pocket and given them a additional opportunity to catch the ball...

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16 hours ago, Vandy said:

I think he’s more a Farve/Marino than a brady/manning/Montana.....and nothing to be ashamed of if that’s the case.....but we’ll see.
 

What do you see?

I would agree with this take.  (BTW, I am a huge Marino fan.  #Underrated)

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Just now, Spts1 said:

Exactly.  Its the elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about.  You don't ever see Julio getting extended play throws from Ryan. Its one read to Julio and if its covered, he goes to the second option or gets sacked.  With Mahomes, the receivers get TONS of extended play passes because Mahomes has moved out of the pocket and given them a additional opportunity to catch the ball...

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Thats why Wilson regularly has one of the worst and/or lowest paid receiving cores in the league while matching and sometimes passing Ryans production.

He makes those guys better because he is not a one dimensional QB. I cant help but think Ryan is holding Julio back because like you said I can not recall more than 2 times Julio is allotted extra time to get open after a play breaks down.  Plays with Ryan at the helm tend to end very quickly whether its a good or bad outcome.

Julio would feast downfield with low arc deep shots that don’t float in the air ultimately giving the DB time to react to the ball or give him time to catch back up to Julio. Julio would also feast from more back shoulder throws but that may be asking too much from Ryan lol.

Julio needs someone with a live arm to fully see what he’s capable of and I’m just really upset we never got to see that.

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35 minutes ago, Jerz #Quinning said:

So maybe teams should go for retreads or 42 year old QB’s...like what is your point? Its still a team sport but QB’s that CAN do more will be held in higher regard. 

I almost have to spell everything out for you because you will go off on a tangent of terrible assumptions and strawmans to give you some juice to argue against.

Even if I was gushing over Mahomes, how could you not? Do you even watch football?

Do you have any idea of the advantage a QB with both pocket passing instincts and an athletic profile that is close to skill positions can do? You’re being incredibly dense on this topic for what? Matt Ryan really mean that much to you?

lmao I mean come on are you really that insecure about QB’s that can run and avoid pressure on the regular while being able to be good passers? It’s honestly sad man. 

MR is above scrutiny on this board. Everyone can be scrutinized, but him. And the thing  is, everyone gets old and the game passes them by. Doenst matter the age, it's all in the play and where the game is trending. And right now, the game is forcing QBs like Matt, Brady, and a few others, out. And if you're a QB that has that "deer in headlights under pressure" look, then you're gonna go quicker.

That is the way of Life. Everyone gets passed by. 

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11 minutes ago, Jerz #Quinning said:

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Thats why Wilson regularly has one of the worst and/or lowest paid receiving cores in the league while matching and sometimes passing Ryans production.

He makes those guys better because he is not a one dimensional QB. I cant help but think Ryan is holding Julio back because like you said I can not recall more than 2 times Julio is allotted extra time to get open after a play breaks down.  Plays with Ryan at the helm tend to end very quickly whether its a good or bad outcome.

Julio would feast downfield with low arc deep shots that don’t float in the air ultimately giving the DB time to react to the ball or give him time to catch back up to Julio. Julio would also feast from more back shoulder throws but that may be asking too much from Ryan lol.

Julio needs someone with a live arm to fully see what he’s capable of and I’m just really upset we never got to see that.

Soo many nuggets in here its hard to start on one... 

I will start with the moon shots.  Ryan has to over compensate for his weak arm by heaving them ducks up there like you said and Julio has to come back to the ball.  Julio gets INJURED at times from this.  Its another elephant people ignore.  You got a big guy who has to break down and come back and he pulls stuff trying to get to them ducks...:(

Next,  like we have both said, Julio gets ONE opportunity.  You can forget extended play throws.

Back shoulder?  Look, again, this is not hating, but Atlanta's offensive coordinators have been scheming them receivers open.  Koetter, Shanahan, Sark and back to Koetter.  Every one of them has been able to get receivers OPEN because you can forget tight coverage throws.  Ryan does it every blue moon but thats not his game.

Live arm quarterback.  Julio setting records with a weak armed quarterback.  Imagine what he would have done with arm talent at quarterback...:(

Lastly,  Russell Wilson is like you pointed out, is a excellent example of how a dual threat RAISES the level of the play around him.  They can throw anybody back there because Wilson can find the time to get the ball to them.  Brady can't even do that.  Thats why they whining up in New England about receivers...

Edited by Spts1

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2 minutes ago, Flying Falcon said:

MR is above scrutiny on this board. Everyone can be scrutinized, but him. And the thing  is, everyone gets old and the game passes them by. Doenst matter the age, it's all in the play and where the game is trending. And right now, the game is forcing QBs like Matt, Brady, and a few others, out. And if you're a QB that has that "deer in headlights under pressure" look, then you're gonna go quicker.

That is the way of Life. Everyone gets passed by. 

A hard pill most are terrified to swallow.

The amount of excuses and moved goal post makes my head hurt. I’ve had so many Matt Ryan stats showing how he’s the greatest QB to have played the game shoved down my throat. I just laugh at this point.

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