FalconsIn2012

Scheme & Coaching Vs Talent

48 posts in this topic

Just now, vel said:

Trying to stop an avalanche with one shovel and my man never blinked and people have been wanting him gone the entire time. 

Crazy to imagine what people would think of him if he had Kyle as his OC from 2015 to the end of his career. 

I posed that same question to CB.  Matt has had 1 great OC his entire career, and in those 2 seasons he won league MVP and should have won a chip.  It's upsetting to think about what this team could have been with Shanny at the helm because at the very least the offense would have been consistently amazing.  San Fran has a lot of high picks on the defensive side, so our defense probably doesn't look like theirs, but it couldn't be much worse than what we have fielded with Dan.

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Just now, athell said:

I posed that same question to CB.  Matt has had 1 great OC his entire career, and in those 2 seasons he won league MVP and should have won a chip.  It's upsetting to think about what this team could have been with Shanny at the helm because at the very least the offense would have been consistently amazing.  San Fran has a lot of high picks on the defensive side, so our defense probably doesn't look like theirs, but it couldn't be much worse than what we have fielded with Dan.

Defense wouldn't be there, but we would have a consistently great offense without having to pump premium capital into making it work. You don't have to sign Carpenter/Brown (nor would you because Kyle would laugh at the thought), probably don't have to trade up to get McGary, etc. You've got scheme consistency that fits Matt perfectly. 

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3 minutes ago, vel said:

Defense wouldn't be there, but we would have a consistently great offense without having to pump premium capital into making it work. You don't have to sign Carpenter/Brown (nor would you because Kyle would laugh at the thought), probably don't have to trade up to get McGary, etc. You've got scheme consistency that fits Matt perfectly. 

Bingo.  Could not agree more.

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4 hours ago, Geaux_Falcons said:

I would have said you're underating the 49ers and the Falcons only have 2 clear advantages at LT & WR. QB is slightly in our favor as Jimmy G is more than capable.

The RBBC they have is a lot stronger than what people are giving credit. Teco, Mostert & Brieda all have 4.3 type of speed. McKinnon even had this. It's why I say Shanny gets the guys he wants and uses it to it's fullest advantage. Those speedy, one-cut guys make the difference in the outside zone. They can turn 0 gains into 10-20 yard gashes by hitting the hole fast or getting outside quickly. 

Kittle being an excellent run blocking TE just adds icing on the cake.

With Shanny calling our offense, are we scoring 30 ppg?

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3 hours ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

Hey bro, what kind of fronts and line games you mixing in with that Cover 7?

We were in a 4-2-5 over to start then we lost a few lineman and they were killing us in the b 's so at half we went to a 3-4 and lined up 4i 0 4i when they ran 10 per. We had our M and Will determine who would be the 4th rusher if it was pass on the field. They also checked a few sent the jack backer and the will covered down on the #2. 

Edited by SPITFIRE

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2 hours ago, athell said:

This is what I'm saying man!  Matt is in the middle of a forrest fire with 1 extinguisher!  Get this man some help!

 

2 hours ago, vel said:

Trying to stop an avalanche with one shovel and my man never blinked and people have been wanting him gone the entire time. 

Crazy to imagine what people would think of him if he had Kyle as his OC from 2015 to the end of his career. 

Ok this made me Lol. 

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3 hours ago, vel said:

Jesus Crice I didn't know it was that bad but when you put it all up together, it's a shame to see what Matt has been surrounded by. One top ten rushing attack in 2016 and one top ten defense in 2011. Best the defense ever got was 2010-2012. Other than that, if Matt Ryan didn't show up, the Falcons had no chance

The bolded should be on Ryan’s HOF bust

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This is a good post, really good. It underlines what’s staring us in the face: DQ is not a competent NFL HC. Period. Good DC? Maybe, even probably if I give him the benefit of the doubt. HC? In over his head. TD and DQ and the players have embarrassed their owner and turned his team into a punch line, not to mention alienated the fan base, which was fickle to begin with.  Not good and actually inexcusable. 
 

4 weeks to go. Hope it’s not a clean sweep because I like Ulbrich and Morris, but a new guy will want his guys. The rest of the Falcons staff will be gone, along with TD. I just hope Blank has a quick and decisive game plan he can execute in January/February. I won’t get my hopes up about Rich McKay, but if AB truly wants a culture change then McKay should also be shown the door.

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8 hours ago, FalconsIn2012 said:

Heading into the season, if I told you the 49ers OL/RB & WR would be what you see below, what would you predict?  Then compare to our talent.  Then look at production.  
 

All you can say is WTF!!!!  Coaching and drafting for scheme are just as important as talent in today’s NFL.  I honestly think heading into the year you’d say only Kittles and McGlincey are advantages.  Every other position we have the better talent

• OL: 49ers/Falcons

LT:    Skule vs Matthews (advantage Falcons)

LG:    Tomlinson vs Brown (Falcons)

C:      Richburg vs Mack (Falcons)

RG:    Person vs Carp (Falcons)

RT:     MCGlinchey vs McGary (49ers)

 

•  RB:    Brenda vs Freeman (Falcons)

•  WR:   Samuel, Sanders, Bourne Vs Julio, Oliver, Sanu or Gage (Falcons)

TE:       Kittles vs Hooper (Wash)

QB:      Jimmy G vs Ryan (Falcons)

Look at what Kyle Shanahan did for Ryan Schraeder. Schraeder was just an average guy the season prior to Shanahan arrival, but quickly trived in Shanahan outside blocking scheme.

Schraeder play dropped off in his first year without Shanahan and continued on lastyear

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8 hours ago, FalconsIn2012 said:

Heading into the season, if I told you the 49ers OL/RB & WR would be what you see below, what would you predict?  Then compare to our talent.  Then look at production.  
 

All you can say is WTF!!!!  Coaching and drafting for scheme are just as important as talent in today’s NFL.  I honestly think heading into the year you’d say only Kittles and McGlincey are advantages.  Every other position we have the better talent

• OL: 49ers/Falcons

LT:    Skule vs Matthews (advantage Falcons)

LG:    Tomlinson vs Brown (Falcons)

C:      Richburg vs Mack (Falcons)

RG:    Person vs Carp (Falcons)

RT:     MCGlinchey vs McGary (49ers)

 

•  RB:    Brenda vs Freeman (Falcons)

•  WR:   Samuel, Sanders, Bourne Vs Julio, Oliver, Sanu or Gage (Falcons)

TE:       Kittles vs Hooper (Wash)

QB:      Jimmy G vs Ryan (Falcons)

 

Production: 

• 49ers: 780 plays, 4,536 Total Yards

     ¥.  350 Pass Attempts, 2,800 Yards   
     ¥.  400 Rushing Attempts; 1,800 Yards 
     ¥.  PPG: 29.1 (2nd in NFL)

    

• Falcons:  810 Plays, 4,450 Yards

     ¥.  515 Pass Attempts, 3,500 Yards   
     ¥.  253 Rushing Attempts; 890 Yards 
     ¥.  PPG: 21.7 PPG (17th in NFL)

Just about every starting player and even some backups are talented. Talent means nothing with foundation, culture (philosophy/identity), chemistry, scheme-fit, sound coaching at both the micro and macro levels, and play-calling. Talent also means nothing without vetting players' intangibles: work ethic, character, resilience, etc.

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3 hours ago, SPITFIRE said:

We were in a 4-2-5 over to start then we lost a few lineman and they were killing us in the b 's so at half we went to a 3-4 and lined up 4i 0 4i when they ran 10 per. We had our M and Will determine who would be the 4th rusher if it was pass on the field. They also checked a few sent the jack backer and the will covered down on the #2. 

Sounds like ya'll are running some pretty sophisticated stuff.  That 77Mod sounds similar to that Cover-5 Cougar Belichick/Saban runs.  Do you have any built in checks for trips and bunch?

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2 hours ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

Sounds like ya'll are running some pretty sophisticated stuff.  That 77Mod sounds similar to that Cover-5 Cougar Belichick/Saban runs.  Do you have any built in checks for trips and bunch?

We did not have anything for bunch, but I did have them check to stubbie when we see 3 x 1. On the back side the the safety played like a robber and looked to bracket weakside 1. That said I dont think they got enough reps at it but we didnt see it as much as I thought we would. I deff copied it from Saban it was listed as cover 7. I only had time to install 1 triangle coverage and 1 check. If the Mike got confused or we saw tempo they would check to 2-man.  We got bounced out of the first round in regionals, but this was a national tournement and we only hat about 5 or 6 practices before game time. 

Edited by SPITFIRE

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13 hours ago, FalconsIn2012 said:

Heading into the season, if I told you the 49ers OL/RB & WR would be what you see below, what would you predict?  Then compare to our talent.  Then look at production.  
 

All you can say is WTF!!!!  Coaching and drafting for scheme are just as important as talent in today’s NFL.  I honestly think heading into the year you’d say only Kittles and McGlincey are advantages.  Every other position we have the better talent

• OL: 49ers/Falcons

LT:    Skule vs Matthews (advantage Falcons)

LG:    Tomlinson vs Brown (Falcons)

C:      Richburg vs Mack (Falcons)

RG:    Person vs Carp (Falcons)

RT:     MCGlinchey vs McGary (49ers)

 

•  RB:    Brenda vs Freeman (Falcons)

•  WR:   Samuel, Sanders, Bourne Vs Julio, Oliver, Sanu or Gage (Falcons)

TE:       Kittles vs Hooper (Wash)

QB:      Jimmy G vs Ryan (Falcons)

 

Production: 

• 49ers: 780 plays, 4,536 Total Yards

     ¥.  350 Pass Attempts, 2,800 Yards   
     ¥.  400 Rushing Attempts; 1,800 Yards 
     ¥.  PPG: 29.1 (2nd in NFL)

    

• Falcons:  810 Plays, 4,450 Yards

     ¥.  515 Pass Attempts, 3,500 Yards   
     ¥.  253 Rushing Attempts; 890 Yards 
     ¥.  PPG: 21.7 PPG (17th in NFL)

 

13 hours ago, SPITFIRE said:

Talent on paper vs execution on the field. This is the problem when it comes to stats and other analytical means of measuring the game. The actual game is the human element when it comes to the strategy of the game plan. Same with the referee's the human element and errors is what make football the greatest team sport there is. Scheme/ system is just a framework to guide gameday adjustments and scripted plays for the players. Individual technique and the execution of said technique on game day is where you see the production. The contest between defense and offense comes down to who makes the mistake. Offense (everyone except Dirk ) try to exploit a player or position and force to the player to evaluate the rules for their system. For example, in a game this past week end I called 77mod (cover 7 mod coverage(man match quarters) to both sides of the field). The offense only saw that we were in a 2 high shell for most of the game. They assumed the smash concept was going to be open, my corner play his rules (man on #1 if route > 5 yrds else zone to deep quaters). What happens is that caused the a interception because the QB did not anticipate the corner dropping. Few plays later same corner beat on a go route in the endzone because he did not play the ball in phase. Nothing changed in the scheme, only thing that change was the mental lapse of technique. It is the same thing in the pro's just at a higher speed and higher threshold. 

Excellent thread!!! This actually points to Thomas Dimitroff NOT being the problem at all. Hopefully Blank realizes this.

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32 minutes ago, SPITFIRE said:

We did not have anything for bunch, but I did have them check to stubbie when we see 3 x 1. On the back side the the safety played like a robber and looked to bracket weakside 1. That said I dont think they got enough reps at it but we didnt see it as much as I thought we would. I deff copied it from Saban it was listed as cover 7. I only had time to install 1 triangle coverage and 1 check. If the Mike got confused or we saw tempo they would check to 2-man.  We got bounced out of the first round in regionals, but this was a national tournement and we only hat about 5 or 6 practices before game time. 

Okay, gotcha.

And yeah, I thought Cover-7 when I first read your description but I think i got it confused with Gregg Williams’s version.

Since we’re talking Saban/Belichick, do you run any funnel with the backers on the back. And while I’m picking your brain a bit, what’s your go-to call on third and long? 

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8 hours ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

Okay, gotcha.

And yeah, I thought Cover-7 when I first read your description but I think i got it confused with Gregg Williams’s version.

Since we’re talking Saban/Belichick, do you run any funnel with the backers on the back. And while I’m picking your brain a bit, what’s your go-to call on third and long? 

So we had a check to cover 1 where to two backers played funnel. Depending on down and distance we would line up in a fake bear front. Our linemen were still Tite, and I brought the safety’s down. From that we would show simulated pressure. Some times we would send the inside backers or the outside backers. And sometimes everyone. It looked like a 0 blitz . 

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18 hours ago, vel said:

Defense wouldn't be there, but we would have a consistently great offense without having to pump premium capital into making it work. You don't have to sign Carpenter/Brown (nor would you because Kyle would laugh at the thought), probably don't have to trade up to get McGary, etc. You've got scheme consistency that fits Matt perfectly. 

Well, if Shamny was our HC, we would also have his stuff defensive coaches.  Kocurek is an unhinged beast

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4 hours ago, SPITFIRE said:

So we had a check to cover 1 where to two backers played funnel. Depending on down and distance we would line up in a fake bear front. Our linemen were still Tite, and I brought the safety’s down. From that we would show simulated pressure. Some times we would send the inside backers or the outside backers. And sometimes everyone. It looked like a 0 blitz . 

Y’all need to bring this to the X’s & O’s thread that died once the season was a lost cause.  This is good stuff.  People like me don’t know what funnel means, but I suspect it’s exactly as the name implies.  Can you give a description?

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8 minutes ago, FalconsIn2012 said:

Y’all need to bring this to the X’s & O’s thread that died once the season was a lost cause.  This is good stuff.  People like me don’t know what gunnel means, but I suspect it’s exactly as the name implies.  Can you give a description?

I will as soon as i get to the office. Unless PMF or someone does it first. 

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4 hours ago, FalconsIn2012 said:

Y’all need to bring this to the X’s & O’s thread that died once the season was a lost cause.  This is good stuff.  People like me don’t know what gunnel means, but I suspect it’s exactly as the name implies.  Can you give a description?

Best example I could find for a quick description. The money ($) and mike (m) are playing funnel on the back. Depending on his release will determine who has responsibility for the back. In simple man to man terms if the back goes right the mike has him man to man, if the back goes left the $ has him.   Its only  applicable to man coverage i believe. 

See the source image

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22 hours ago, FalconsIn2012 said:

With Shanny calling our offense, are we scoring 30 ppg?

I believe so. Maybe not running like he is in San Fran, but at least 25 ppg, and around middle of the pack in rushing. I think we see more Barner/Ollie combo

 

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