Jump to content

So how exactly did the Saints do this?


Recommended Posts

It hasn’t been that long ago that the Saints were 7-9 for two consecutive years if memory serves me correctly. At that time, Rex Ryan’s brother was their defensive coordinator. His last season there they had one of the worst defenses of all times. Historically bad as I recall in terms of yards given up and points allowed. 
 

Now, just two or three years later, their defense is arguably the strength of their team. How exactly did they make that big of a turnaround that quickly besides firing Ryan? Could we copy some of what they did? The Saints have proven it can be done without compromising their offense. Mr Blank should insist on nothing less. What specifically should we do over the next two years to have a formidable defense without compromising our offense?  If they can do it, we should be able to do it also. Ideas??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, BUBBASBEANS said:

One of the main factors is fact they have had continuity with a HC who knows what it takes to win in NFL. Don’t like the guy but he is committed to winning. 

This is a huge statement and a bullseye. The biggest difference is that Drew and his O-line can win a few more games in a bad season than Matt and his o-line can. This buys his HC another year (just like Tomlin). Both Smitty and Quinn are good enough to get us there but, in the bad seasons we look like trash and the Saints are just bad on defense, in comparison.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Under Ryan we were trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Ryans scheme was overly difficult. And instead of adjusting the defense to players strengths, he insisted they adjust to his scheme. And in doing so, surpassed the pitiful defense from Spagnoulo we had in like 2013.

Dennis Allen came in and immediately reversed it. Simplified reads and scheme, and adjusted to the players strengths. 

Further, we have had 2 or 3 really good draft classes, led by 2017. ( which is prolly best in our history and top5 NFL drafts.) 

So it was simply a matter of getting a coach who understood his players strengths, drafted based on who would fit and also have some versatility. 

And adding Jeff Ireland was huge as well

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, marvinthemartian said:

It hasn’t been that long ago that the Saints were 7-9 for two consecutive years if memory serves me correctly. At that time, Rex Ryan’s brother was their defensive coordinator. His last season there they had one of the worst defenses of all times. Historically bad as I recall in terms of yards given up and points allowed. 
 

Now, just two or three years later, their defense is arguably the strength of their team. How exactly did they make that big of a turnaround that quickly besides firing Ryan? Could we copy some of what they did? The Saints have proven it can be done without compromising their offense. Mr Blank should insist on nothing less. What specifically should we do over the next two years to have a formidable defense without compromising our offense?  If they can do it, we should be able to do it also. Ideas??

They went from a pass happy team that played no defense to a run first team with top 10 defense.  Simple, really.  Can’t overstate the importance of Dennis Allen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Glorioso said:

Under Ryan we were trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Ryans scheme was overly difficult. And instead of adjusting the defense to players strengths, he insisted they adjust to his scheme. And in doing so, surpassed the pitiful defense from Spagnoulo we had in like 2013.

Dennis Allen came in and immediately reversed it. Simplified reads and scheme, and adjusted to the players strengths. 

Further, we have had 2 or 3 really good draft classes, led by 2017. ( which is prolly best in our history and top5 NFL drafts.) 

So it was simply a matter of getting a coach who understood his players strengths, drafted based on who would fit and also have some versatility. 

And adding Jeff Ireland was huge as well

 

Thank you for an excellent description from a first hand observer. You guys did well. Congratulations!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

-Continued investment in the offense creating a consistent source of points as the defense got worked out over the years.

-Ramczyk, Peat in the 1st and Armstrong in the 3rd has paid off massively. They did not wait for this situation to become dire. Where as their WR core may only have Thomas but it is not crippling to have that group hit this point of neglect.

-Offensive coach to pair with their HOF QB has led to Synergy over the years while Ryan has gotten new coordinators on the reg. 

-They learned quickly from the free agent signings and cap ****. Traded Cooks for what became Ramczyk and his rookie deal was a turning point. It was an “oh ****” moment for me that they were now making Patriot like moves.
 


How do we fix it?

-Fire McKay and TD. Trading up consistently is beyond ridiculous. Players fall off so quick, injuries, and short contract lengths all mean you need a quantity of players to hit your roster each draft. I put this method squarely on their shoulders no matter the head coach input. 

-Get a new offensive coach to pair with Ryan’s twilight so he has that continuity and consistency. 

-Invest in the lines but not at all costs. If a stud at another position is there then consider taking them if it’s a position within reason. 


-The defense can become a focal point as a result.


 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

2 hours ago, Glorioso said:

Ryans scheme was overly difficult. And instead of adjusting the defense to players strengths, he insisted they adjust to his scheme. And in doing so, surpassed the pitiful defense from Spagnoulo we had in like 2013.

Ryan did very well in 2013, we were 4th in both points and yards. It wasn’t until Payton (after getting bodied twice in 2013) insisted on a “Seattle-esque” defense that Ryan’s defense struggled. In 2013 the defense gave up 19 ppg. After the unnecessary philosophy change forced upon his defense, they gave up 26.5 ppg in 2014 and fell to 28th in the league.

In addition to the forced philosophy change in 2014, our defense saw an alarming amount of roster turnover, specifically in defensive leadership. Jonathan Vilma, Will Smith, Malcolm Jenkins, and Roman Harper (all defensive captains at one point) either retired, were released, or allowed to leave in free agency following the 2013 season. Between the four, they had a combined 29 years experience in a Saints uniform alone. After they left, the longest tenured defensive players in the locker room were Junior Galette and Patrick Robinson, both only having 4 years each in the NFL period.

We tried to upgrade the FS position with Byrd which everyone agreed was desperately needed but injuries derailed that from him ever getting back to his former All-Pro self and we had to eat a lot of money as a result in addition to the Graham and Galette ordeals.

The combination of jettisoning all the experience leadership and trying to change the defensive philosophy was what kickstarted the 7-9 train but what continued it was the misses on picks (Anthony, Jean-Baptiste, Kikaha, ect) and whiffs on free agents (Byrd, Browner, Bailey, ect).

 

Edited by Iron Saint
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, The O.D.B said:

This is a huge statement and a bullseye. The biggest difference is that Drew and his O-line can win a few more games in a bad season than Matt and his o-line can. This buys his HC another year (just like Tomlin). Both Smitty and Quinn are good enough to get us there but, in the bad seasons we look like trash and the Saints are just bad on defense, in comparison.

OBD, you just correctly took it a step further than me though.  I had not thought of it in that light but I do believe you’re correct!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Akod2017 said:

-They learned quickly from the free agent signings and cap ****. Traded Cooks for what became Ramczyk and his rookie deal was a turning point. It was an “oh ****” moment for me that they were now making Patriot like moves.

This is a great point not because it yielded a Herschel Walker type bounty but because when compared to the Falcons, it's really really hard to see them making that kind of cold, transactional move. We've all seen this organization reward every high pick who is worth half a crap with a major contract extension when free agency approaches. If the Falcons picked Cooks, there is no doubt they would have kept him and given him top 5 WR money when his contract ran out. The Saints decided while he was pretty good, they might be able to do better and that was a risk worth taking. 

Additionally, I would submit: 

  • Kenny Vaccaro: He was the #15 pick in the 2013 draft and started at least 11 games in each of his five seasons with the Saints. He never made a Pro Bowl but he was a solid starter. The Saints let him walk. There is no doubt in my mind that if the Falcons drafted him in that position and he had that kind of career, they would have extended him for top 5 safety money. 
  • Terron Armstead/Andrus Peat: Armstead was the #75 pick in the 2013 draft and was likely seen as a project coming out of Arkansas-Pine Bluff. He started 2 games at LT as a rookie. He then started 14 games at LT in 2014. Andrus Peat was the #13 pick in the 2015 draft. He was a college LT. I don't know much about the Saints inner organization, but I have to think they picked Peat to upgrade Armstead at LT. That's what [url=https://www.canalstreetchronicles.com/2015/4/30/8525867/2015-nfl-draft-results-saints-andrus-peat-13th-overall]analysis[/url] at the time seemed to think. Peat never took a snap at LT and Armstead blossomed into a Pro Bowler. If this were the Falcons, I can't help but think they would have tried multiple times to stick Peat in at LT to justify their draft pick. The Saints let the best players play. 

You are so right these are Patriots type moves while the Falcons are mired in the good ol boy network. 

Edited by Summerhill
Link to comment
Share on other sites

They invested picks in the defense and hit home runs in the latter parts of the draft for offense. It also helps having an innovative coach calling the plays on offense. Would love to see what Payton could do with our offensive talent which is easily on par with Saints. The biggest thing they have going for them is continuity in the coaching staff.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Jpg428gggg said:

They invested picks in the defense and hit home runs in the latter parts of the draft for offense. It also helps having an innovative coach calling the plays on offense. Would love to see what Payton could do with our offensive talent which is easily on par with Saints. The biggest thing they have going for them is continuity in the coaching staff.

Outside of CB, id agree. I think Brees' mental ability at QB is second to none. ( processing info etc ) You have Debo ( who i loved at LSU - all homerism aside ) at MLB, Grady at Dline...so the pieces are there to build upon. Offensive side, Ryan, Julio/Ridley - you need a distinctive "coleman" type that has top end speed w/ in a few steps. Letting Coleman go was a mistake imo. Need that shifty speedy back to compliment Freemean. 

One think Payton has never veered from is the O Line. Protecting the "pocket" is paramount for non-mobile passers. It did get away from us post suspension, but it never got to a point like the Falcons have now. 

Everyone talks about having "shut down" CBs. You dont need a 15mm/yr cb if the QB has less than 2.5 sec to throw the ball. And thats D Line. Vice versa, you dont need a 20mm/yr WR if your QB has 3.5 sec to throw with no pressure. 

 

Game has been and always will be won in the trenches. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, BUBBASBEANS said:

One of the main factors is fact they have had continuity with a HC who knows what it takes to win in NFL. Don’t like the guy but he is committed to winning. 

And retained the same supporting cordinators.....consistency at top management brings in such results. Also, let's not forget they got our local home grown talen Alvin Kamara in late rounds and Falcons just snoozed off!

Dimitroff/ Dan Quinn have to be fired.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Halcon-1 said:

acting like the Saints are some type of gold standard to live by . . . . 

I dont think anyone is saying we are the "gold standard". But our record speaks for itself since SP arrived here. Bolstered by the fact that we went 7-9 for 3 seasons, only to rip off 3 straight NFC South crowns in a row. And i dont think we ever had a season under Payton with less than 7 wins. ( edit : 8 winning seasons and 4 with 7-9 records nothing less than 7 wins ) I think this thread comments to more "in division" foes that have the same basic make up ( Great QB, great WR, solid players on D to build on etc ) 

We lost Brees for 5 games and Sean and Bridgewater et al went 5-0. We woulda been ECSTATIC with going 3-2....but we went 5-0. Testament to what coaching can do. 

 

 

Edited by Glorioso
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Glorioso said:

I dont think anyone is saying we are the "gold standard". But our record speaks for itself since SP arrived here. Bolstered by the fact that we went 7-9 for 3 seasons, only to rip off 3 straight NFC South crowns in a row. And i dont think we ever had a season under Payton with less than 7 wins. ( edit : 8 winning seasons and 4 with 7-9 records nothing less than 7 wins ) 

We lost Brees for 5 games and Sean and Bridgewater et al went 5-0. We woulda been ECSTATIC with going 3-2....but we went 5-0. Testament to what coaching can do. 

 

 

can't argue that. . . 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...