freefall

Let me get this straight...

74 posts in this topic

53 minutes ago, Vandy said:

I like the fact he brings a little swag. Something this team’s been missing since 2016. 
 

I much prefer him over McCarthy.

The thought of McCarthy taking over the Falcons is enough to make me want to put a gun barrel in my mouth!!

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55 minutes ago, athell said:

Don't you think this is an indictment on Quinn though?  Points for stepping up and admitting he needs help, but if it took him stepping back and elevating Ulbrich and Morris to go from god awful to...good(?)...what is his point in being here?  A defensive coach who can't coach defense.  It's not like he is some foolproof Head Coach, right?

I get the not disrupting the apple cart, but for me that would mean Quinn would need to take on a new role within the organization...and bring in a new HC to rule them all which will obviously never happen.

I see your point, I do, just for me it's not salvageable.  His history is not on his side.  

You keep saying a defensive coach who can't coach defense. DQ is still involved. He's just not in sole control. No different than 2017 when Manuel was the DC. He's proven to be a solid head coach, which is what his job is. Less on his plate and new voices on defense has seemed to rejuvenated the entire team. You can't ignore that. Again, all of my point is if this is sustained through the rest of the season. Bringing in a new HC to rule them all? Lol what would he provide that DQ wouldn't? He wouldn't be coaching defense nor offense. You're basically making a move for face value. 

Again, if they end the season 7-9 or better, DQ will have shown he can right the ship and continue to lead this team. His history has shown he can get this team to a SB and win in the postseason...

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9 minutes ago, vel said:

You keep saying a defensive coach who can't coach defense. DQ is still involved. He's just not in sole control. No different than 2017 when Manuel was the DC. He's proven to be a solid head coach, which is what his job is. Less on his plate and new voices on defense has seemed to rejuvenated the entire team. You can't ignore that. Again, all of my point is if this is sustained through the rest of the season. Bringing in a new HC to rule them all? Lol what would he provide that DQ wouldn't? He wouldn't be coaching defense nor offense. You're basically making a move for face value. 

Again, if they end the season 7-9 or better, DQ will have shown he can right the ship and continue to lead this team. His history has shown he can get this team to a SB and win in the postseason...

I keep going back to his defenses dvoa ratings.  Throughout his tenure he has varying levels of involvement on the defense, and the issue persists.  You can't ignore that.

And why are you laughing at a new HC?  Has Quinn shown you that he is anything more than a middling NFL HC?  I would disagree him being a proven solid head coach...I don't get running to the defense of Dan Quinn, I really don't.

And his history has shown he can ride a historic office to a SB.  The following year they were one and done, which granted, the defense played well...but again, you cannot just gloss over ALL the negatives of which there are many.

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11 minutes ago, athell said:

I keep going back to his defenses dvoa ratings.  Throughout his tenure he has varying levels of involvement on the defense, and the issue persists.  You can't ignore that.

And why are you laughing at a new HC?  Has Quinn shown you that he is anything more than a middling NFL HC?  I would disagree him being a proven solid head coach...I don't get running to the defense of Dan Quinn, I really don't.

And his history has shown he can ride a historic office to a SB.  The following year they were one and done, which granted, the defense played well...but again, you cannot just gloss over ALL the negatives of which there are many.

I've never ignored that. Again, I led the charge on that when it was much less popular than now. So you're preaching to the choir. 

What HC would you get? A retread that flamed out elsewhere? A HC with no track record. You can't say "His history is not on his side" then I point to his accomplishments as HC of this team. 

And again, you ignore the lone point I've repeated:

IF the last two games continues the rest of the year...

If they revert back to the 1-7 Falcons, then he'll be gone. Rightfully so. But right now, the Falcons shut down a very lethal Saints team in New Orleans and a Panthers team that actually averaged more points than the Saints through 9 games. If they end up 7-9, they would have beaten some very impressive teams along the way. If they keep averaging 4-5 sacks a game and turnovers keep happening, that's the defense we expected to see. 

There are a lot of IF's that you just keep ignoring, assuming I'm all the way pro-DQ. I'm pro Falcons. If they turn this thing around with the current staff, that's something I would have expected a new staff to do if they fired DQ. So why fire the staff that did what I would have expected a new one to do? When there is no guarantee a new staff would be able to do it in 2020? That's my only point. 

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26 minutes ago, vel said:

I've never ignored that. Again, I led the charge on that when it was much less popular than now. So you're preaching to the choir. 

What HC would you get? A retread that flamed out elsewhere? A HC with no track record. You can't say "His history is not on his side" then I point to his accomplishments as HC of this team. 

And again, you ignore the lone point I've repeated:

IF the last two games continues the rest of the year...

If they revert back to the 1-7 Falcons, then he'll be gone. Rightfully so. But right now, the Falcons shut down a very lethal Saints team in New Orleans and a Panthers team that actually averaged more points than the Saints through 9 games. If they end up 7-9, they would have beaten some very impressive teams along the way. If they keep averaging 4-5 sacks a game and turnovers keep happening, that's the defense we expected to see. 

There are a lot of IF's that you just keep ignoring, assuming I'm all the way pro-DQ. I'm pro Falcons. If they turn this thing around with the current staff, that's something I would have expected a new staff to do if they fired DQ. So why fire the staff that did what I would have expected a new one to do? When there is no guarantee a new staff would be able to do it in 2020? That's my only point. 

I don't know the answer(s) bro, all I know is what I see and what I see is making me mad lol

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I can't say I'm fully on board with discharging Quinn just yet, BUT IF for some reason DQ is let go from the Falcons after this season, I think the best immediate solution would be is to promote Raheem Morris to HC, continue with Koetter as the OC and promote him to AHC, and promote Ulbrich to DC. I know Morris wasn't really given a great opportunity at Tampa but he did turn a 3-13 team into a 10-6 team in his second season there especially considering Josh Freeman was his QB and throw in the fact that Morris also served as the DC there that particular season. The next year Tampa tanked under Morris to 4-12 with Keith Mallard as their DC and the Bucs cleaned house and hired Greg Schiano who is now an AHC at Ohio State.

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18 minutes ago, athell said:

I don't know the answer(s) bro, all I know is what I see and what I see is making me mad lol

I fully get that and I've never argued against that. The last two games are frustrating because this should have been happening since week one. 

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19 hours ago, Falconsfan567 said:

Yes, the coaching has been major, but we see a different attitude out there too. Guys are playing with an intensity that was lacking.

When you're not second guessing what you're doing you can play with intensity. That said, it wasn't all the coaches fault. When other players aren't executing their assignments, it leads to confusion, too.

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1 hour ago, vel said:

I fully get that and I've never argued against that. The last two games are frustrating because this should have been happening since week one. 

Yep!! They should have been playing like this all season. Lots of us said before the season that the Falcons on paper were one of the most talented teams in the NFL and had the talent to beat any team anywhere. We just didn't believe in the coaching and sadly the coaching issues led to a 1-7 record.

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2 hours ago, falconfansince66 said:

I can't say I'm fully on board with discharging Quinn just yet, BUT IF for some reason DQ is let go from the Falcons after this season, I think the best immediate solution would be is to promote Raheem Morris to HC, continue with Koetter as the OC and promote him to AHC, and promote Ulbrich to DC. I know Morris wasn't really given a great opportunity at Tampa but he did turn a 3-13 team into a 10-6 team in his second season there especially considering Josh Freeman was his QB and throw in the fact that Morris also served as the DC there that particular season. The next year Tampa tanked under Morris to 4-12 with Keith Mallard as their DC and the Bucs cleaned house and hired Greg Schiano who is now an AHC at Ohio State.

No!! I agree with everything you said except keeping Koetter!! Offense still isn't anywhere near it should be. Koetter should have never been brought back because Sark should have never been fired. That was such a dumb move considering the offense was really good last year.

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3 hours ago, athell said:

I keep going back to his defenses dvoa ratings.  Throughout his tenure he has varying levels of involvement on the defense, and the issue persists.  You can't ignore that.

And why are you laughing at a new HC?  Has Quinn shown you that he is anything more than a middling NFL HC?  I would disagree him being a proven solid head coach...I don't get running to the defense of Dan Quinn, I really don't.

And his history has shown he can ride a historic office to a SB.  The following year they were one and done, which granted, the defense played well...but again, you cannot just gloss over ALL the negatives of which there are many.

No they were. The Falcons beat the Rams on the road in the playoffs in 2017. 2016 and 2017 are the only years in Falcons history that they've ever won playoff games in 2 straight seasons. We can't just ignore that.

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5 minutes ago, Falconsfan567 said:

No they were. The Falcons beat the Rams on the road in the playoffs in 2017. 2016 and 2017 are the only years in Falcons history that they've ever won playoff games in 2 straight seasons. We can't just ignore that.

Yeah, they won one (Rams) and then were done (Phi).  

What have we done since?

And even in those years, how was the defense?

You also glossed over everything else I posted in favor of 1 statement...

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10 minutes ago, Falconsfan567 said:

Yep!! They should have been playing like this all season. Lots of us said before the season that the Falcons on paper were one of the most talented teams in the NFL and had the talent to beat any team anywhere. We just didn't believe in the coaching and sadly the coaching issues led to a 1-7 record.

Yep. And that 1-7 start is a fireable offense. I won't bat an eye if he gets fired for it. 

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3 hours ago, Falconsfan567 said:

The thought of McCarthy taking over the Falcons is enough to make me want to put a gun barrel in my mouth!!

We won’t let you do that, 567....

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4 hours ago, vel said:

If they end up 7-9 or 8-8, I'm for keeping him. Why? Because that means Ulbrich/Morris are doing a good job coaching the defense and DQ is doing his job as coaching and directing the team. Every HC doesn't have to be a play caller. Maybe if DQ wasn't calling the defense in the SB, he would have noticed Kyle was getting too aggressive and over ridden his plays. Look at John Harbaugh and Mike Tomlin. They are HCs who just manage the roster. They lean on their coordinators. Same with Mike Smith when he was here. 

I agree. The defense's haven't been good. I've led that train since 2017. But that's not what pushes me to fire DQ. I've complained it's a talent issue. They, just like a lot of board members here, looked solely at points allowed in 2017 and thought they had a top ten unit. This defense was one of most talented groups we've had in Atlanta, yet it has been misused for half of the season. The last two games are clear examples of what they could have been. Should have been. That's a big mistake from DQ, but this should have at least been a ~16th DVOA type of defense, not bordering on worst of all time. That's why I say, if they continue playing like this going forward, it will show they corrected the issue and actually have the talent. 

Exactly. For years folks on here have wanted the Falcons to be like the successful franchises like the Patriots and Steelers, well they are successful because they're patience with coaches and survive the waves.

All we've got to do is look back at Bill Cowher's run with the Steelers to see how their patience ended up paying off in the long run. Bill Cowher's first 6 years the Steelers went 64-32 in the regular season and 5-6 in the playoffs including losing a Super Bowl to the Cowboys. In years 7 (1998), 8 (1999), and 9 (2000) the Steelers went a combined 22-26 and missed the playoffs each year. Imagine if the Steelers had overreacted and fired Cowher after that? They decided to believe in him and it paid off with an eventual Super Bowl win.

If the Falcons finish out this run with 7 or 8 or even 9 wins we've got to stay put because that will have meant Quinn has turned the ship around and fixed what the problems where. There's no guarantee a new coach would do better.

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7 minutes ago, athell said:

Yeah, they won one (Rams) and then were done (Phi).  

What have we done since?

And even in those years, how was the defense?

You also glossed over everything else I posted in favor of 1 statement...

I ignored it because I don't know anything about DOVA and how any of that works and honestly don't care to. I know the defense was inconsistent at best in 2017 and flat out disastrous in 2018.

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2 minutes ago, athell said:

Yeah, they won one (Rams) and then were done (Phi).  

What have we done since?

And even in those years, how was the defense?

That 2017 defense was a match up defense. No different than New England's. It wasn't a top ten unit, but at #22 DVOA, they were better than NE at #31. And were good enough to hold PHI to 15 points on the road...

It's a complementary unit. They will never be a top tier unit because of the severe salary cap restraints. But the last two games have shown just how complementary they can be with an offense that carries their share. It's funny how Belichick is heralded for solving the opponent's offense, yet this is the first time he's had a defense in the top ten in DVOA since 2006. He's not concerned with stats. He's focused on doing what it takes to win that game. That's what the 2017 defense was, as much as I rag on that group. Get a lead and that unit was built to front run. Has been since DQ got here. Was the case under Smitty too. Seems to be TD's thing... :ninja:

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21 minutes ago, Falconsfan567 said:

No!! I agree with everything you said except keeping Koetter!! Offense still isn't anywhere near it should be. Koetter should have never been brought back because Sark should have never been fired. That was such a dumb move considering the offense was really good last year.

Understand about Koetter and agree w/Sark getting the offense into gear a bit last year but he's got one more year if memory serves me, we keep OC's for two years before they leave (or get removed). 

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Just now, falconfansince66 said:

Understand about Koetter and agree w/Sark getting the offense into gear a bit last year but he's got one more year if memory serves me, we keep OC's for two years before they leave (or get removed). 

Mularkey was OC for 4 years, Koetter 3, Shanny 2, Sark 2.

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1 minute ago, Falconsfan567 said:

Mularkey was OC for 4 years, Koetter 3, Shanny 2, Sark 2.

Yeah, if Koetter would realize we must use the passing game to open up the run game here, he might work out okay. We also need to give Ollison more touches, I like his power, dude's a beast.

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46 minutes ago, Falconsfan567 said:

I ignored it because I don't know anything about DOVA and how any of that works and honestly don't care to. I know the defense was inconsistent at best in 2017 and flat out disastrous in 2018.

Just let me be mad, 567 lol

I'm coping!

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9 hours ago, freefall said:

If that is the case then why are people still defending him when his defense has been bad 3 out of 5 years, average 1 year, and good 1 year?  Why keep bringing up about other coaches or players if the buck stops with him?  

Maybe because his GM spends our cap on offense and continually whiffs on defense. We've been slanted offense since 2008. Average picks on the defensive side of the ball. No Abe type trades. No productive FAs like Rod Coleman. No cap space. We might have a GM problem folks.

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8 hours ago, vel said:

Yep. Not just that, you fire DQ because you assume a new HC can fix what the old one has shown he can't. If all of these changes they made result in a 6-2/7-1 run, that means he's essentially done what a new HC would be hired to do. There are no guarantees a new HC works. There are also no guarantees DQ can keep this ship going in the right direction. But he's got the rest of the season to prove the post-bye week Falcons are the real version. But like you said, his seat should be hot again next year because of that 1-7 start that was uncalled for. Ruined the season. 

This sums up my feelings really well.

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