freefall

Let me get this straight...

74 posts in this topic

47 minutes ago, Vandy said:

I’m impressed with what I’m been hearing & seeing Raheem Morris doing, Athell.
 

Quinn better watch his back!

Bro, we have talked about a swarming, dominant, top 10 defense for how many years?  We all hoped Quinn would be the one to deliver it...I never in a million years would have thought the difference would be so drastic to him running everything to him stepping back and letting his assistants step in.  Like I mentioned, it's night and day...against some dang good teams...I'm thankful DQ shuffled the coaching/duties deck because we went from several holes in all areas due to lack of production to now maybe we have a bunch of guys we can actually do something with under the right leadership.

Crazy...

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1 hour ago, athell said:

I cannot dispute that the BYE week helped, but I would follow up with why it helped?  There is a path that Quinn surrendered the duties during the BYE week and allowed his assistants to have a much bigger role in the game plan, schemes, and preparation thus resulting in the better results.

I just find it extremely odd that Quinn relinquishes control and all of a sudden we look like a completely different team.  It's night and day.  WHY?!  That's what I can't get past...and if it was these swaps, WHY DID IT TAKE HIM SO LONG?!  WHY WAS HE PLAYING PLAYERS OUT OF POSITION WHEN EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVERYONE SAW IT BUT HIM?!?!

I hear you, I do, I am just 100% over Dan Quinn.  I want him gone after this season.  He can't deliver on his defensive promises.  He can't.  If a defensive guru can't deliver a defense, what is his point of being here?  People bring up Peyton and the Saints...but the Saints offense during that time (which Peyton has always had control of) was always prolific.  He at least upheld his end...what has Dan upheld?

I agree that it would be major disappointment if Quinn stays.  My argument with people wanting to keep Quinn is what does Quinn do well for the Falcons to keep him as a HC?  Because he doesn’t run offense or special team, and his defense has been subpar since he been here 5 years ago.  This version of the defense the last 2 games?  It came after Quinn gave up plays calling duty.  So if someone else call the plays will the defense still have the same success?  No one knows so should we waste another season to find out?  Some will said let promote Ulbrich or Morris to DC so they can keep calling plays next year as well.  Isn’t that admitting that the success of the defense was due to their play calling?  If so then keeping Quinn is just so to keep “the guy”?  Well “the guy” will be someone HC soon if he is “the guy”.  After that we will just be stuck with Quinn  without “the guy” again.

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1 minute ago, freefall said:

I agree that it would be major disappointment if Quinn stays.  My argument with people wanting to keep Quinn is what does Quinn do well for the Falcons to keep him as a HC?  Because he doesn’t run offense or special team, and his defense has been subpar since he been here 5 years ago.  This version of the defense the last 2 games?  It came after Quinn gave up plays calling duty.  So if someone else call the plays will the defense still have the same success?  No one knows so should we waste another season to find out?  Some will said let promote Ulbrich or Morris to DC so they can keep calling plays next year as well.  Isn’t that admitting that the success of the defense was due to their play calling?  If so then keeping Quinn is just so to keep “the guy”?  Well “the guy” will be someone HC soon if he is “the guy”.  After that we will just be stuck with Quinn  without “the guy” again.

Yup.  I think Quinn has value in this league, and maybe it's more of a specialized and limited role or scope, but it's not as HC.  My fear with him is a Marvin Lewis situation where yea you get some good years, but there are more down and average years than anything.  Football h e double l.  Not good enough to be a perennial contender, not bad enough for high picks to turn your franchise around, just stuck.  Forever.  That is my fear with retaining him just for the sake of continuity.  Tenure = / = consistency. 

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1 hour ago, Falconsfan567 said:

It's not all coaching. Yes, the coaching adjustments have been major, but I think the bye week allowed the locker room to reset and start over. By that I mean, anyone that has played sports knows that one of the hardest thing to do as a player and a team is to change the momentum of a game and season. Once that snowball of bad starts happening it's extremely difficult to take a deep breathe and reset. It's human nature to start trying to do too much that just compounds the mistakes and makes things worse instead of better and I think that is what we saw during the losing streak. During the bye week the coaches were able to implement the changes they wanted and the players were able to catch their breath and start over with the season like it was game 1 of the season again. I think that is truth to the turnaround.

Guys like @Knight of God, @Vandy, @vel and @TheFatboi can hopefully elaborate on this point.

For me it was a combination of events that turned things around. 
 

1. Quinn went back to his system that the team was familiar with. 
2. the coaching changes got communication issues corrected 

3. Quinn turned playcalling over to Ulbrich and Morris. 
4. players held themselves accountable 

5. Players were moved back to familiar positions ala kazee at FS. 

6. They hit the reset button  

I wanted Quinn gone because he changed his own system and they were terrible. Now I think he should be given another season but the seat remain hot. What I do like is he did what most coaches will not and that was hold himself accountable. He corrected his own mistakes. Now all of a sudden Beasley looks like what I always thought he was and takk does too. I loved that Quinn was gonna take over playcalling but when he changed the system I wasn’t thrilled with that. But now that they’ve gon back to what they do I am very pleased. The bye week is always reset and correct week. Fans think you can do this during the season but it is incredibly hard because you’re always game planning for the next game. 

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4 hours ago, freefall said:

In 2016 the defense got better when Quinn took over plays calling(they still ended up 27th in scoring defense so it didn’t take much to improve I guess).  Quinn got credit for that so be it.  2019 first 8 games the defense was a disaster.  Some claimed it was too much responsibility for a HC to be calling plays at the same time.  Ok so that wasn’t an issue in 2016 but it was in 2019.  Whatever.  Now past 2 games Quinn gave up plays calling and the defense played light out.  Some wants Quinn to get credit for that too.  So Quinn gets credit when he calls plays and the defense play well, and he also gets credit for giving up calling plays and the defense plays well?  I guess it doesn’t matter what Quinn does as long as the defense plays well the credit goes to him.  I suppose being a HC that kind of perks go to him...except his defense for the most part has been lackluster since he got here.  Yet somehow it’s the other coaches faults and he had to fire them/let them go or that the players failed him.  So credits go to Quinn and blames go to other coaches and players.  Make sense.

 

From what I understand the play calling was given up a couple.games before N.O. The real.difference is Morris changing back to.secondary coach.

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2 hours ago, Vandy said:

I’m impressed with what I’m been hearing & seeing Raheem Morris doing, Athell.
 

Quinn better watch his back!

I agree. You think Morris is.DC next season?

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11 hours ago, freefall said:

In 2016 the defense got better when Quinn took over plays calling(they still ended up 27th in scoring defense so it didn’t take much to improve I guess).  Quinn got credit for that so be it.  2019 first 8 games the defense was a disaster.  Some claimed it was too much responsibility for a HC to be calling plays at the same time.  Ok so that wasn’t an issue in 2016 but it was in 2019.  Whatever.  Now past 2 games Quinn gave up plays calling and the defense played light out.  Some wants Quinn to get credit for that too.  So Quinn gets credit when he calls plays and the defense play well, and he also gets credit for giving up calling plays and the defense plays well?  I guess it doesn’t matter what Quinn does as long as the defense plays well the credit goes to him.  I suppose being a HC that kind of perks go to him...except his defense for the most part has been lackluster since he got here.  Yet somehow it’s the other coaches faults and he had to fire them/let them go or that the players failed him.  So credits go to Quinn and blames go to other coaches and players.  Make sense.

 

Quinn gets credit for everything, good and bad, because he is the HC. 

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9 hours ago, athell said:

I cannot dispute that the BYE week helped, but I would follow up with why it helped?  There is a path that Quinn surrendered the duties during the BYE week and allowed his assistants to have a much bigger role in the game plan, schemes, and preparation thus resulting in the better results.

I just find it extremely odd that Quinn relinquishes control and all of a sudden we look like a completely different team.  It's night and day.  WHY?!  That's what I can't get past...and if it was these swaps, WHY DID IT TAKE HIM SO LONG?!  WHY WAS HE PLAYING PLAYERS OUT OF POSITION WHEN EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVERYONE SAW IT BUT HIM?!?!

I hear you, I do, I am just 100% over Dan Quinn.  I want him gone after this season.  He can't deliver on his defensive promises.  He can't.  If a defensive guru can't deliver a defense, what is his point of being here?  People bring up Peyton and the Saints...but the Saints offense during that time (which Peyton has always had control of) was always prolific.  He at least upheld his end...what has Dan upheld?

My issue with Quinn and why I continue to doubt if he should come back is that I just don't trust his decision making.

I credit him for the changes made that have turned this D around, but I come back to why things were so wrong in the first place. From players playing out of position, to coaches coaching out of position, to schemes being wrong. Go back further and look at some of the choices he made regarding coordinators, etc.

Looking back on his entire career here, and I just see some good moves but also a pattern of very questionable decisions, and I worry about what bad choices will he make next if we bring him back. 

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11 hours ago, Falconsfan567 said:

Yes, the coaching has been major, but we see a different attitude out there too. Guys are playing with an intensity that was lacking.

And THAT is a coaching issue. Specifically a HC issue.

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2 hours ago, FalconFanSince1970 said:

Quinn gets credit for everything, good and bad, because he is the HC. 

If that is the case then why are people still defending him when his defense has been bad 3 out of 5 years, average 1 year, and good 1 year?  Why keep bringing up about other coaches or players if the buck stops with him?  

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1 hour ago, Vandy said:

I‘ve always liked the guy. If Quinn doesn’t make the cut, I think he should be considered for HC. 
 

He’s just 43. 

I'm noy against it. He was just too young at Tampa.

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12 hours ago, TheFatboi said:

For me it was a combination of events that turned things around. 
 

1. Quinn went back to his system that the team was familiar with. 
2. the coaching changes got communication issues corrected 

3. Quinn turned playcalling over to Ulbrich and Morris. 
4. players held themselves accountable 

5. Players were moved back to familiar positions ala kazee at FS. 

6. They hit the reset button  

I wanted Quinn gone because he changed his own system and they were terrible. Now I think he should be given another season but the seat remain hot. What I do like is he did what most coaches will not and that was hold himself accountable. He corrected his own mistakes. Now all of a sudden Beasley looks like what I always thought he was and takk does too. I loved that Quinn was gonna take over playcalling but when he changed the system I wasn’t thrilled with that. But now that they’ve gon back to what they do I am very pleased. The bye week is always reset and correct week. Fans think you can do this during the season but it is incredibly hard because you’re always game planning for the next game. 

Yep. Not just that, you fire DQ because you assume a new HC can fix what the old one has shown he can't. If all of these changes they made result in a 6-2/7-1 run, that means he's essentially done what a new HC would be hired to do. There are no guarantees a new HC works. There are also no guarantees DQ can keep this ship going in the right direction. But he's got the rest of the season to prove the post-bye week Falcons are the real version. But like you said, his seat should be hot again next year because of that 1-7 start that was uncalled for. Ruined the season. 

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4 hours ago, TheUsualStuff said:

My issue with Quinn and why I continue to doubt if he should come back is that I just don't trust his decision making.

I credit him for the changes made that have turned this D around, but I come back to why things were so wrong in the first place. From players playing out of position, to coaches coaching out of position, to schemes being wrong. Go back further and look at some of the choices he made regarding coordinators, etc.

Looking back on his entire career here, and I just see some good moves but also a pattern of very questionable decisions, and I worry about what bad choices will he make next if we bring him back. 

This is what I don't get.  People are clamoring for him like he has done anything special in the league.  I keep going back to the fact that his defenses here have outright sucked.  Why keep a defensive guy that can't coach defense?

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32 minutes ago, vel said:

Yep. Not just that, you fire DQ because you assume a new HC can fix what the old one has shown he can't. If all of these changes they made result in a 6-2/7-1 run, that means he's essentially done what a new HC would be hired to do. There are no guarantees a new HC works. There are also no guarantees DQ can keep this ship going in the right direction. But he's got the rest of the season to prove the post-bye week Falcons are the real version. But like you said, his seat should be hot again next year because of that 1-7 start that was uncalled for. Ruined the season. 

Totally agree. 

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3 hours ago, Vandy said:

I‘ve always liked the guy. If Quinn doesn’t make the cut, I think he should be considered for HC. 
 

He’s just 43. 

And he wasn't that bad in Tampa. He once won 10 games in a season there and they haven't come close to reaching that since. I would be on board with him as HC.

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I think there is a sense of calmness with the team that wasn't there for first 8 weeks.  Everyone is in sync now and are flowing with the game.  When you have all 11 guys doing the game plan, its a lot better than 1 game changer trying to force the game.  Ridley was a monster yesterday.  

Even if it took 8 weeks to get to this point with this team, at least they found something that works for them.  We don't have to explode the whole roster and coaching staff.  We don't have to change schemes dramatically.  We keep rolling with what we are doing and sprinkle in pieces to keep building on top of it. 

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1 hour ago, athell said:

This is what I don't get.  People are clamoring for him like he has done anything special in the league.  I keep going back to the fact that his defenses here have outright sucked.  Why keep a defensive guy that can't coach defense?

If they end up 7-9 or 8-8, I'm for keeping him. Why? Because that means Ulbrich/Morris are doing a good job coaching the defense and DQ is doing his job as coaching and directing the team. Every HC doesn't have to be a play caller. Maybe if DQ wasn't calling the defense in the SB, he would have noticed Kyle was getting too aggressive and over ridden his plays. Look at John Harbaugh and Mike Tomlin. They are HCs who just manage the roster. They lean on their coordinators. Same with Mike Smith when he was here. 

I agree. The defense's haven't been good. I've led that train since 2017. But that's not what pushes me to fire DQ. I've complained it's a talent issue. They, just like a lot of board members here, looked solely at points allowed in 2017 and thought they had a top ten unit. This defense was one of most talented groups we've had in Atlanta, yet it has been misused for half of the season. The last two games are clear examples of what they could have been. Should have been. That's a big mistake from DQ, but this should have at least been a ~16th DVOA type of defense, not bordering on worst of all time. That's why I say, if they continue playing like this going forward, it will show they corrected the issue and actually have the talent. 

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53 minutes ago, Falconsfan567 said:

And he wasn't that bad in Tampa. He once won 10 games in a season there and they haven't come close to reaching that since. I would be on board with him as HC.

I like the fact he brings a little swag. Something this team’s been missing since 2016. 
 

I much prefer him over McCarthy.

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Just now, vel said:

If they end up 7-9 or 8-8, I'm for keeping him. Why? Because that means Ulbrich/Morris are doing a good job coaching the defense and DQ is doing his job as coaching and directing the team. Every HC doesn't have to be a play caller. Maybe if DQ wasn't calling the defense in the SB, he would have noticed Kyle was getting too aggressive and over ridden his plays. Look at John Harbaugh and Mike Tomlin. They are HCs who just manage the roster. They lean on their coordinators. Same with Mike Smith when he was here. 

I agree. The defense's haven't been good. I've led that train since 2017. But that's not what pushes me to fire DQ. I've complained it's a talent issue. They, just like a lot of board members here, looked solely at points allowed in 2017 and thought they had a top ten unit. This defense was one of most talented groups we've had in Atlanta, yet it has been misused for half of the season. The last two games are clear examples of what they could have been. Should have been. That's a big mistake from DQ, but this should have at least been a ~16th DVOA type of defense, not bordering on worst of all time. That's why I say, if they continue playing like this going forward, it will show they corrected the issue and actually have the talent. 

Don't you think this is an indictment on Quinn though?  Points for stepping up and admitting he needs help, but if it took him stepping back and elevating Ulbrich and Morris to go from god awful to...good(?)...what is his point in being here?  A defensive coach who can't coach defense.  It's not like he is some foolproof Head Coach, right?

I get the not disrupting the apple cart, but for me that would mean Quinn would need to take on a new role within the organization...and bring in a new HC to rule them all which will obviously never happen.

I see your point, I do, just for me it's not salvageable.  His history is not on his side.  

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3 minutes ago, athell said:

Don't you think this is an indictment on Quinn though?  Points for stepping up and admitting he needs help, but if it took him stepping back and elevating Ulbrich and Morris to go from god awful to...good(?)...what is his point in being here?  A defensive coach who can't coach defense.  It's not like he is some foolproof Head Coach, right?

I get the not disrupting the apple cart, but for me that would mean Quinn would need to take on a new role within the organization...and bring in a new HC to rule them all which will obviously never happen.

I see your point, I do, just for me it's not salvageable.  His history is not on his side.  

 

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9 hours ago, athell said:

Seriously @Vandy.  This two game stretch has me fired up man, and not in a good way in relation to Quinn.  I'm mad.

I hear you, my friend. Deep down we all knew this team had no business losing to titans/Colts/Zona et al. Folks trying to blame TD, McKay/Blank’s ‘culture’ in ATL, blaming the players even though they were obviously confused by both the offensive and defensive schemes bu the OC/DC, et al.....all were just making subtle excuses for the real problem... the coaching staff, specifically the head guy. 

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Just now, Vandy said:

I hear you, my friend. Deep down we all knew this team had no business losing to titans/Colts/Zona et al. Folks trying to blame TD, McKay/Blank’s ‘culture’ in ATL, et al...were just making excuses for the real problem... the coaching staff. 

Absolutely...and it took him until we had next to no chance at the playoffs to make the move.  Another wasted season.  ffs

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