Cheap Talk

Falcons did not Play a Complete Game Today.

57 posts in this topic

33 minutes ago, FalconsIn2012 said:

And bottom line, we suck at run blocking.  It’s hard to tell if the running backs are  the issue.  Hill was hit in the backfield nearly every single carry.  Do we even practice it??

I'm convinced DK spends very little time practicing running the football. Not nearly as much as Kyle Shanahan or any of his disciples do.

We need a bigger running back was always a problem that was echoed in this board when DK was/is calling the plays. When Kyle arrived, that went away. Now DK is back and "oh, we need another RB" threads start popping up again. You figure people would notice the trend...

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1 hour ago, cwell1 said:

It's so funny how when a running game is ineffective the reason always has to be the running back to people on this board lol "CHANGE THE BACK! THAT WILL FIX IT"

Koetter can't run the ball. His scheme is cheeks. The only times since Matt Ryan has been with this franchise where our running game has been COMPLETELY NONEXISTENT..... Dirk Koetter was our OC

You're right, and I thought our run game would be much more effective this season with Mularkey on staff. That hasn't paid the dividends I thought it would. 

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You can put the ghost of Devonta Freeman in his prime or any other great running back in our backfield and it's not going to change nothing. 

You have to have creases and Holes to run through. We have blocking and scheme issues. If that was ever fixed, you all would be screaming about how much of a miracle it was that the old Freeman showed back up. If the holes are there, Free can still run it and show out. All of our backs would look instantly better. Contrary to popular belief, RB can't run through walls or make holes. 

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7 minutes ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

Koetter is part of the problem, but the problem is there is a deeper disconnect going on with regards to philosophy... we don't have one.  When Mularkey was OC, we were a power run team: gap schemes, power-0, variations of pin and pull type stuff.  When Shanny was here; wide zone all the way.  

I really can't tell you what kind of running game we have now which is why I can't really point to the backs as a problem.  I can't tell you if they fit or not, if I can't tell what scheme we have.  In the offseason, I heard Mularkey talk about getting away from the wide zone and back to more gap scheme stuff.  Well we for sure got away from the wide zone.  Beyond that, what?  We seem to run more as a cursory now.  We don't hang our hat on anything.

 

With the amount invested in the OL it’s laughable that we can’t run block.  Matthews & Mack are Pro Bowl players.  Brown is a mauler. How can we not run on the left side?

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1 hour ago, Cheap Talk said:

Looks like the Falcons will have to spend one of those 2nd Rounders on a RB come April. Cannot go into 2020 without a running game, or it will be more of the same. Hill had his chance to shine today and certainly did not! 

If the OL is the problem, then we need a shifty type RB like Freeman in his prime, not someone who is a cut-and-run type RB. We now officially have no answers currently on the the team at RB for 2020. 

We dominated in this game because the OL is decent at pass block, and we have a elite duo of WRs with Jones/Ridley. We would not have even won this game today against a better team, that could have focused on the passing attack once the they had shut down the run.

This team has relied too long on what was the ghost of Devonta Freeman's elite play, hoping it was some how going to come back to life. The coaching staff and FO really did not have the right to expect that it would. More than anything else I think that is what cost us the 2019 season. There was no back-up plan, did not bring in a veteran through FA or with a trade (Barner not withstanding).

Cheap Talk?

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Just now, FalconsIn2012 said:

With the amount invested in the OL it’s laughable that we can’t run block.  Matthews & Mack are Pro Bowl players.  Brown is a mauler. How can we not run on the left side?

Exactly.  And we've had conversations before about coaching.  You know where I stand, but I have a hard time believing that our run game would look this bad if we had for example Alex Gibbs coaching our offensive line and a commitment to a real philosophy.

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5 minutes ago, ya_boi_j said:

It’s not beside the point. Dirk isn’t the OC for the talent provided. That’s the main thing. End of the day they did a poor job replacing Shanahan, especially in hiring Dirk

Koetter has been around the NFL a long time, and do not believe he is married to one scheme so much so he would use the talent available consistently in the wrong way. He is overwhelmingly getting the blame, but I'm not going there.

He had good running teams using the Falcon's cast off, Rogers. Still believe it is a talent issue here. Believe Ito would have been that guy, but he has shown me that his body will not hold-up.

We need to either bring in a veteran FA (New Orleans always seems to find those guys) or spend a high daft pick on the right player to fit the scheme of whoever is the OC. 

[Speaking of scheme, not sure how to even feature a RB like Hill, not a big fan of his. Seems to flourish more running to the edge, but with his average speed that would eventually be defensed away.]

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27 minutes ago, NWFALCON said:

Did Ollison fumble or did he recover one of Barner's on a punt? The box score has him with a fumble.

He was inches from being down and someone punched the ball out but he continued to fall on it immediately and recovered it.. Nothing major 

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18 minutes ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

Koetter is part of the problem, but the problem is there is a deeper disconnect going on with regards to philosophy... we don't have one.  When Mularkey was OC, we were a power run team: gap schemes, power-0, variations of pin and pull type stuff.  When Shanny was here; wide zone all the way.  

I really can't tell you what kind of running game we have now which is why I can't really point to the backs as a problem.  I can't tell you if they fit or not, if I can't tell what scheme we have.  In the offseason, I heard Mularkey talk about getting away from the wide zone and back to more gap scheme stuff.  Well we for sure got away from the wide zone.  Beyond that, what?  We seem to run more as a cursory now.  We don't hang our hat on anything.

 

You make a very astute point, we do not have a signature scheme. The reason for that is that everything that has been tried has been a fail (F). Koetter has been around the NFL a long time, and do not believe he is married to one scheme so much so he would use the talent available consistently in the wrong way. For one reason or the other nothing is working.

We really did not have the right OL for power football when Turner was here, but the coaching staff adapted the scheme to fit the talent. Freeman was good enough in his prime to just take the hand-off and make his own adjustments, which worked well with zone-locking. 

I just do not think the talent is here now to make anything work, nothing has clicked all season except for the NO game.

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1 hour ago, THEHEADCOACH said:

You can put the ghost of Devonta Freeman in his prime or any other great running back in our backfield and it's not going to change nothing. 

You have to have creases and Holes to run through. We have blocking and scheme issues. If that was ever fixed, you all would be screaming about how much of a miracle it was that the old Freeman showed back up. If the holes are there, Free can still run it and show out. All of our backs would look instantly better. Contrary to popular belief, RB can't run through walls or make holes. 

Why does it seem like every RB we play against this year, including McCaffrey has the vision to adjust and not run into that wall as it forms in middle. Hill does not have that vision. Freeman has it, but his legs are not what they were.

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3 hours ago, ya_boi_j said:

They’re running with 3 guys that have barely gotten touches all season. They may be fresh but they haven’t had a single chance to get in a real rhythm week to week. I have zero issue going into next season with Ito, Hill and Ollison as a 3 headed rbbc. There’s absolutely no reason to blow another draft pick on a running back

Incorrect.

If the "Best Player Available" is a running back? You take a running back.

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1 hour ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

Koetter is part of the problem, but the problem is there is a deeper disconnect going on with regards to philosophy... we don't have one.  When Mularkey was OC, we were a power run team: gap schemes, power-0, variations of pin and pull type stuff.  When Shanny was here; wide zone all the way.  

I really can't tell you what kind of running game we have now which is why I can't really point to the backs as a problem.  I can't tell you if they fit or not, if I can't tell what scheme we have.  In the offseason, I heard Mularkey talk about getting away from the wide zone and back to more gap scheme stuff.  Well we for sure got away from the wide zone.  Beyond that, what?  We seem to run more as a cursory now.  We don't hang our hat on anything.

 

I wonder if the players we have along the OL and the RBs are better suited for the wide zone concept. I get sick of the stifling rush attempts, slow, sluggish offensive starts, and choppy consistency. 

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1 minute ago, Cheap Talk said:

Why does it seem like every RB we play against this year, including McCaffrey has the vision to adjust and not run into that wall as it forms in middle. Hill does not have that vision. Freeman has it, but his legs are not what they were.

Free's leg are fine, Free doesn't have the running lanes he once had.  Other RBs have holes to run through. Ours do not. When the holes do appear, they have performed.  Sometimes you can bounce it out , but if the other team doesn't lose contain. You're gonna lose yardage. Our RBs literally have no where to go most times. So they try to get what they can. We have alot of of scheme, play design, and some blocking issues. Shanahan knew how to run the football and didn't telegraph his runs. Free had creases to slip through and get going. That's what is missing now.

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14 minutes ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

Exactly.  And we've had conversations before about coaching.  You know where I stand, but I have a hard time believing that our run game would look this bad if we had for example Alex Gibbs coaching our offensive line and a commitment to a real philosophy.

This force meshing of different philosophies is why nothing has looked fluid since 2016.  
 

 

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It's not that we can't run block.....its that we don't do it on a consistent level.

Also having 3 backs with inexperience in the offense limits what can be called.

 

It is touch to have a consistent facet of a game when you have a lot of moving parts ( different set of linemen, new rb,...different TE etc)

 

All of that can wreck a running game .

There just has to be a happy medium between the saints and the panthers games

 

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5 hours ago, FalconsIn2012 said:

And bottom line, we suck at run blocking.  It’s hard to tell if the running backs are  the issue.  Hill was hit in the backfield nearly every single carry.  Do we even practice it??

This is exactly why I’m on the Kubiak from MIN to be OC train.

He is a ZBS guru. One of the earlier OGs at it. He may not want to HC again but try to outdo Kyle with mostly the same talent might appease him...as I doubt MIN moves on from their current OC.

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6 hours ago, Roanoke Falcon said:

Incorrect.

If the "Best Player Available" is a running back? You take a running back.

Would be completely stupid. There’s no reason to touch a RB in the offseason unless it’s just to have a camp body. 

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10 hours ago, Cheap Talk said:

Why does it seem like every RB we play against this year, including McCaffrey has the vision to adjust and not run into that wall as it forms in middle. Hill does not have that vision. Freeman has it, but his legs are not what they were.

McCaffrey wouldn't go anywhere on this team either. He has the chance to find cut back lanes. Our guys get hit un the backfield and are lucky enough to fall forward to the line of scrimmage. Koetter is straight booty cheeks as an OC and I hate that we even brought him back

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14 hours ago, cwell1 said:

It's so funny how when a running game is ineffective the reason always has to be the running back to people on this board lol "CHANGE THE BACK! THAT WILL FIX IT"

Koetter can't run the ball. His scheme is cheeks. The only times since Matt Ryan has been with this franchise where our running game has been COMPLETELY NONEXISTENT..... Dirk Koetter was our OC

Told people that in the offseason and the response was "look how well Dirk ran the ball in Jacksonville". Clueless fans man.

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16 hours ago, Cheap Talk said:

Koetter has been around the NFL a long time, and do not believe he is married to one scheme so much so he would use the talent available consistently in the wrong way.

This right here is part of the problem with Kutty.  What is his running scheme?  I can tell you what he tries to do through the air, but when it comes to the ground game, it's kinda like... whatever.  

And it's one thing to be flexible enough to build stuff around the strengths of your players.  It's another thing to not really have an identity at all when it comes to your running game.  Joe Gibbs for example won Super Bowls with three different quarterbacks, different types of running backs, the whole nine -- he could fit his scheme around any kind of player, but he a core philosophy when it came to running the ball: counter trey.

How do you even start to build a scheme, or evaluate players if you don't have an ideology?

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14 minutes ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

This right here is part of the problem with Kutty.  What is his running scheme?  I can tell you what he tries to do through the air, but when it comes to the ground game, it's kinda like... whatever.  

And it's one thing to be flexible enough to build stuff around the strengths of your players.  It's another thing to not really have an identity at all when it comes to your running game.  Joe Gibbs for example won Super Bowls with three different quarterbacks, different types of running backs, the whole nine -- he could fit his scheme around any kind of player, but he a core philosophy when it came to running the ball: counter trey.

How do you even start to build a scheme, or evaluate players if you don't have an ideology?

But this has to come form the HC also right??? 

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1 hour ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

Thats why I don’t put this all on Koetter.

I don't either, but would like to hear what he is trying to do with the running game. Maybe someone can ask him that question, someone from Falcoholic?

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