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Was it talent or coaching?


Sun Tzu 7
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47 minutes ago, freefall said:

To me when you said you will take over plays calling and the defense look horrendous for 8 games, but all of a certain you gave up plays calling and the defense look like world beater, how do you expect people to react?  You brought up what Quinn did in 2016, the defense was 25th in yards and 27th in points allowed.  Getting the team to the SB?  I think you gave credit to the wrong man.  At best Quinn didn’t do enough damage to ruin that season like he has this one.  As for the offense not helping him out, as a defensive HC I expect him to help out the offense with his defense like today and not the other way around.  I am rarely ever critical of players or coaches, but when it comes to Quinn I just cannot help but think he doesn’t do anything to help the team.  He gave the team no advantages with his side of expertise.

The defensive rankings in 16 Don't disprove the defense improved after he started calling it. He took over late into the season. Besides, I didn't say the defense was great, they were extremely young, but they did get a lot better. Anyone who watched that season , saw the difference. 

Im giving the wrong guy the credit for the SB?? Umm .... No. Reread what I wrote. I said i would have fired him for KS in 16.  I also said the same thing in 16. 

Im not making excuses for Quinn. I been on his *** too, but im also looking at the team as a whole. Quinn is part of the blame for the defense problems, but he is also part of the good things too. Players have fail him a lot this year . Not doing what they are told to do.

 

 

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Seemed like a mix of both. With Kazee at safety, we saw less ish/Carter, and more Bledi at corner. Foye was on the field more. We were able to do more man coverage.

Brought some blitzes. We were actually getting coverage sacks today. Our secondary has killed us all year.

Kinda makes sense how we have such a high win percentage in pass rush situations, but few sacks. Seen more Clay coming off the edge. 

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40 minutes ago, Vandy said:

Curious....What exactly is it you think you’ve seen folks making BS up on about Dan Quinn?
 

He was hired to fix the D, and D has been this team’s Achilles heel most of Quinn’s entire time here. That’s not BS, it’s unarguable facts.

This,

Ulbrich made a difference today but DQ still trash. I love him as a person but hes not a good dc. 

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26 minutes ago, Vandy said:

Curious....What exactly is it you think you’ve seen folks making BS up on about Dan Quinn?
 

He was hired to fix the D, and D has been this team’s Achilles heel most of Quinn’s entire time here. That’s not BS, it’s unarguable facts.

To put it simple. Anything good that happens, not Quinn, anything bad, its Quinn. We could sit here all night listing them. Same way people do with TD. The biggest difference in today's game  was players doing their job. 

I totally agree with with that. I wanted Quinn gone in 16 before the SB, said then give KS the job, even before the 49ers ever talked to him. Quinn has made mistakes, but this **** show in 2019, isn't all him. I've been on Quinn as much as anyone , but anyone who believes it's all because of Quinn calling plays, is a fool. Blame players not doing their jobs, coaches not correcting them, and Quinn trying new things that maybe he shouldn't. Thinking Ulbrich just made that huge difference today is crazy. It was probably Quinn's game plan and he probably had a huge influence on how it was called. People thinking he is just standing on the sidelines all week and today just twiddling his thumbs, is ********. Im not saying he's been good, wouldn't be mad if he's fired, but he is responsible for the good and the bad on this defense. He's responsible for terrible Offensive hires , just as much as hiring Kyle. It all boils down to people picking and choosing what they want to believe. I choose to look at everything as a whole. 

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2 hours ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

He's been my main culprit from the start.  Like @vel pointed out months ago, a guy with that kind of experience and defensive profile wasn't hired just to help manage timeouts.  To be fair, though, I've been shooting at Bob and he might not have anything to do with it, but that stuff looked a lot closer to the D he was running in K.C. than anything we were running before he got here.

Throw Jerome Henderson in there too. These coverages have been terrible. You have a gang of man cover corners and kept playing the softest coverages possible. They played in the Saints WRs faces all day today. Several jams, which we haven't seen all season, physical play, well designed blitzes. It was just an overall cleaner game from the defense. 

Hats off to Ulbrich and Morris. Shame it took eight weeks, but at least we saw it. 

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12 minutes ago, THEHEADCOACH said:

The defensive rankings in 16 Don't disprove the defense improved after he started calling it. He took over late into the season. Besides, I didn't say the defense was great, they were extremely young, but they did get a lot better. Anyone who watched that season , saw the difference. 

Im giving the wrong guy the credit for the SB?? Umm .... No. Reread what I wrote. I said i would have fired him for KS in 16.  I also said the same thing in 16. 

Im not making excuses for Quinn. I been on his *** too, but im also looking at the team as a whole. Quinn is part of the blame for the defense problems, but he is also part of the good things too. Players have fail him a lot this year . Not doing what they are told to do.

 

 

Defense improved in 2016 but they still ended up with 25th in yards and 27th in points allowed.  What do you think they were before he took over and did Quinn had nothing to do with how bad they were before then?  If so then same thing apply here in 2019.  All the bad goes to Quinn the 1st 8 games and he get no success for this 9th game.  You can't have it both way for saying he got the defense improved when he took over the play calling and isn't to blame for prior in 2016 then turnaround and give him credit for anything that happened today.  So for the 1st 8 games this year the play calling was Quinn and the 9th game wasn't.  If play calling wasn't the issue then what was it?  And don't give me the player failed him because those were the same players who got 6 sacks today.  The only different was those same players didn't get the plays from Quinn but someone else this time.  I will grant you that Quinn is not totally to be blame for the failure of this season so far, but his portion of the blame might equal if not more than everyone else combined.

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1 hour ago, THEHEADCOACH said:

To put it simple. Anything good that happens, not Quinn, anything bad, its Quinn. We could sit here all night listing them. Same way people do with TD. The biggest difference in today's game  was players doing their job. 

I totally agree with with that. I wanted Quinn gone in 16 before the SB, said then give KS the job, even before the 49ers ever talked to him. Quinn has made mistakes, but this **** show in 2019, isn't all him. I've been on Quinn as much as anyone , but anyone who believes it's all because of Quinn calling plays, is a fool. Blame players not doing their jobs, coaches not correcting them, and Quinn trying new things that maybe he shouldn't. Thinking Ulbrich just made that huge difference today is crazy. It was probably Quinn's game plan and he probably had a huge influence on how it was called. People thinking he is just standing on the sidelines all week and today just twiddling his thumbs, is ********. Im not saying he's been good, wouldn't be mad if he's fired, but he is responsible for the good and the bad on this defense. He's responsible for terrible Offensive hires , just as much as hiring Kyle. It all boils down to people picking and choosing what they want to believe. I choose to look at everything as a whole. 

Biggest difference today was staying with a plan to run the ******* ball. We also simplified the defensive scheme and the players looked much more comfortable in knowing where they should be in given situations.

Why it took 9 games for DQ & his staff to figure that out?

That’s coaching.

 

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6 minutes ago, freefall said:

Defense improved in 2016 but they still ended up with 25th in yards and 27th in points allowed.  What do you think they were before he took over and did Quinn had nothing to do with how bad they were before then?  If so then same thing apply here in 2019.  All the bad goes to Quinn the 1st 8 games and he get no success for this 9th game.  You can't have it both way for saying he got the defense improved when he took over the play calling and isn't to blame for prior in 2016 then turnaround and give him credit for anything that happened today.  So for the 1st 8 games this year the play calling was Quinn and the 9th game wasn't.  If play calling wasn't the issue then what was it?  And don't give me the player failed him because those were the same players who got 6 sacks today.  The only different was those same players didn't get the plays from Quinn but someone else this time.  I will grant you that Quinn is not totally to be blame for the failure of this season so far, but his portion of the blame might equal if not more than everyone else combined.

Quinn has had influence on it all, that's the point I been trying to get through peoples head. The only reason I brought up 16, was because the problems aren't because of him calling the defense. I never said they were awesome in 16. The problems before were on him, but they did play better with him calling the defense. The problems this season are on him, but so was today. And Yes, the players have failed him. Go back and watch the games. Players were not making plays and not where they were supposed to be. Biggest problem we have had this season.

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It’s always coaching and scheme. Preparation is part of coaching. Its the coaches’ responsibility to have players prepared. Every team in the NFL has talent. Vic Beasley had 15.5 sacks in a season. His talent didn’t disappear The dumb coach started experimenting with him. 

In the NBA it’s talent, in the NFL it’s coaching.

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20 minutes ago, vel said:

Throw Jerome Henderson in there too. These coverages have been terrible. You have a gang of man cover corners and kept playing the softest coverages possible. They played in the Saints WRs faces all day today. Several jams, which we haven't seen all season, physical play, well designed blitzes. It was just an overall cleaner game from the defense. 

Hats off to Ulbrich and Morris. Shame it took eight weeks, but at least we saw it. 

Serious question: if we sweep NFC South...does Quinn stay? Any part of existing staff and HC gets replaced with Morris??

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34 minutes ago, vel said:

Throw Jerome Henderson in there too. These coverages have been terrible. You have a gang of man cover corners and kept playing the softest coverages possible. They played in the Saints WRs faces all day today. Several jams, which we haven't seen all season, physical play, well designed blitzes. It was just an overall cleaner game from the defense. 

Hats off to Ulbrich and Morris. Shame it took eight weeks, but at least we saw it. 

Oh, yeah, I've had plenty to say about Jerome, too.  Been saying he's skated from a lot of blame so far from the masses.  

Love what I saw today.  Corners in the receivers faces was the first thing that jumped out to me.  We were pressing even when we played zone, which was one of the hallmarks of that Seattle scheme.  Looked exactly like Cover-1 pre-snap.  Had me fooled a couple of times.

Love it.  Really got me wondering what it was that had DQ sticking with that other mess for so long?  Was it ego?  Was it really about wanting to keep Vic on the field?  I know you spend all offseason in the lab putting this new stuff together so you aren't gonna junk after a few weeks into the season, but we played one solid game out of our first four and it just got worse from there.

I would've liked to have been a fly on the wall for that one.

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Just now, Ergo Proxy said:

Serious question: if we sweep NFC South...does Quinn stay? Any part of existing staff and HC gets replaced with Morris??

Man honestly I've been conflicted lately. If he sweeps the South, that's what he's hired to do. If they end up say 7-9 but are 6-0 in the NFC South, that's a tough situation. I'd still leaning firing him, but I just don't know. If they play like this the rest of the way, they can go 7-1. That's an 8-8 season. 

I just don't know man. 

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4 minutes ago, vel said:

Man honestly I've been conflicted lately. If he sweeps the South, that's what he's hired to do. If they end up say 7-9 but are 6-0 in the NFC South, that's a tough situation. I'd still leaning firing him, but I just don't know. If they play like this the rest of the way, they can go 7-1. That's an 8-8 season. 

I just don't know man. 

7-9 should keep his job. 
 

Quinn and staff deserve kudos today. Best game plan ....offensively and defensively....I’ve seen out of them in two seasons. Gave me a little renewed hope. 

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8 minutes ago, vel said:

Man honestly I've been conflicted lately. If he sweeps the South, that's what he's hired to do. If they end up say 7-9 but are 6-0 in the NFC South, that's a tough situation. I'd still leaning firing him, but I just don't know. If they play like this the rest of the way, they can go 7-1. That's an 8-8 season. 

I just don't know man. 

I’m exactly right there.

I’m still overall disappointed in the Koetter hire on results so far, but we started taking some shots in the 2nd half. Missed Ridley deep on our opening possession but later burned Apple with Julio when Lattimore went out.

Target their weakness!

That said, great run/pass ratio today. Of course, one always wonders if we get to 20+ carries if the D was it’s usual self...

Gonna find out real quick what Hill and even Ollison might be made of if Free is down for the count.

I just really miss a Playcaller of Kyle’s caliber coupled with a consistently B+ or better ground game. You give Matt Ryan that in a WC system and a competent defense, we got a window open again.

Can Dirk, Mularkey, and Knapp bring it all together between gameplanning, playcalling and adjustments?

Ulbrich as DC and Morris with those DBs...brilliant start against what was previously a juggernaut team in their stadium where we usually struggle!

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2 minutes ago, vel said:

Man honestly I've been conflicted lately. If he sweeps the South, that's what he's hired to do. If they end up say 7-9 but are 6-0 in the NFC South, that's a tough situation. I'd still leaning firing him, but I just don't know. If they play like this the rest of the way, they can go 7-1. That's an 8-8 season. 

I just don't know man. 

If we go 7-1, I'd have a hard time cutting bait.  Might turn out to be fools gold, and would only mean he'd be the first coach up to be fired next season at the first sign of trouble, but it'd be tough to let him go, especially if the defense keeps playing like this.  

Now Koetter would be a different story in my book, but then that would mean here we go again another OC.

 

Don't you just love the high of a win.  A week ago I was ready to hand the keys to Mularkey.  Now I'm #Quinn2020. :lol:

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9 hours ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

Oh, yeah, I've had plenty to say about Jerome, too.  Been saying he's skated from a lot of blame so far from the masses.  

Love what I saw today.  Corners in the receivers faces was the first thing that jumped out to me.  We were pressing even when we played zone, which was one of the hallmarks of that Seattle scheme.  Looked exactly like Cover-1 pre-snap.  Had me fooled a couple of times.

Love it.  Really got me wondering what it was that had DQ sticking with that other mess for so long?  Was it ego?  Was it really about wanting to keep Vic on the field?  I know you spend all offseason in the lab putting this new stuff together so you aren't gonna junk after a few weeks of the season, but we played one solid game out of our first four and it just got worse from there.

I would've liked to have been a fly on the wall for that one.

Heck, even we goofy fans saw it PMF.

Maybe he was too close, and needed a week off to step back. Forrest for trees kinda thing, I dunno.

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16 minutes ago, Vandy said:

Biggest difference today was staying with a plan to run the ******* ball. We also simplified the defensive scheme.

That’s coaching.

 

Running the ball definitely helped a lot keeping the defense fresh, but not having players running wide open in our secondary and missed assignments was huge. If not for that, Brees would have buried us in touchdowns. 

Oh, let's not forget having a decent officials for a change. 

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2 minutes ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

Oh, yeah, I've had plenty to say about Jerome, too.  Been saying he's skated from a lot of blame so far from the masses.  

Love what I saw today.  Corners in the receivers faces was the first thing that jumped out to me.  We were pressing even when we played zone, which was one of the hallmarks of that Seattle scheme.  Looked exactly like Cover-1 pre-snap.  Had me fooled a couple of times.

Love it.  Really got me wondering what it was that had DQ sticking with that other mess for so long?  Was it ego?  Was it really about wanting to keep Vic on the field?  I know you spend all offseason in the lab putting this new stuff together so you aren't gonna junk after a few weeks of the season, but we played one solid game out of our first four and it just got worse from there.

I would've liked to have been a fly on the wall for that one.

Yea that was the part that got me. They were challenging all game. Like why was that so hard? 

I think DQ's ego has gotten in the way lately. First with Vic, then with taking over playcalling and it all sucking. He tried to simplify things, but was calling stuff that didn't mesh with his talent. We kept yelling that he had a ton of man corners and kept playing zone. Ulbrich played a ton of man and let them get comfortable. His blitzes were less telegraphed as well. You could the see the LB in him coming through the players/playcalls. 

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2 minutes ago, vel said:

Ulbrich played a ton of man and let them get comfortable. His blitzes were less telegraphed as well. You could the see the LB in him coming through the players/playcalls. 

Just as an aside, and this ain't really got nothing to do with the thread, but I love cats with backgrounds as linebackers and defensive backs as play callers... no shade to my defensive linemen out there.

#RandomThoughtoftheDay

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https://www.thefalcoholic.com/2019/11/10/20958563/falcons-credit-raheem-morris-for-crisper-more-effective-secondary-play-against-saints-ricardo-allen

“The different perspective, the different knowledge he has for the game — I feel like it helped the DBs out a lot more,” Oliver said. “It wasn’t anything the coaches previously weren’t doing, it’s just something different. That’s the biggest thing. All of them working together now, I feel like it helps us a lot more.”

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9 minutes ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

 

Now Koetter would be a different story in my book, but then that would mean here we go again another OC.

 

I made a thread after the game last week saying there's no way DK called the 2nd half of the SS game. Today looked like more of that 2nd half play-calling from SS.

My eye/gut tells me MM is calling the plays now and DK is in a contributing/collaborative role now. What's your eye/gut tell you about the play-calling the last two games?

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13 minutes ago, The O.D.B said:

I made a thread after the game last week saying there's no way DK called the 2nd half of the SS game. Today looked like more of that 2nd half play-calling from SS.

My eye/gut tells me MM is calling the plays now and DK is in a contributing/collaborative role now. What's your eye/gut tell you about the play-calling the last two games?

Don't get me to lying bro.  The entire scheme looked different to me from Schaub's first snap; not just the second half.  Quick passes, hard placation out of heavy run looks, 6 and 7 man protections.  Looked like we finally went back to what Kyle was running.

Anything would strictly be a guess and I'd venture to guess Dirk is still calling it, but he may be getting hands laid on by someone else, though.  

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