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freefall

Football Outsiders(Falcons Related)

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I don't follow them much so I don't know how reputable they are in what they do, but according to them since Quinn been here in 2015 his defense efficiency has been 22nd, 26th(2016 SB year), 22nd, 31th(last year 7-9), and 30th.  So for a defense oriented coach Quinn defense has never been higher than 22nd which is still bottom 3rd in the league.  This is also with an offense efficiency of 23rd, 1st(2016 SB), 9th, 8th(7-9 last year), and 28th to back them up most year(3 top 10).  For too long having a good/great QB masked this team problem on the defensive side(and to some extend the OL and lack of running game), and when the offense can no longer carry them we get a historically bad defense.  Falcons don't really need a top 10th defense to have a winning season with Ryan leading the offense.  Just a middle of the pack one would have been sufficient, but since Ryan been here Falcons only have 3 seasons where the defense efficiency been higher than 22nd(14th, 8th, and 12th Smith 3rd, 4th, and 5th seasons).  Falcons have truly squandered the best time of their history by not building a decent defense. 

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It was our potent offense out scoring other teams that made the super bowl squad’s defense look better.  Go back and look at those score from that year.  Teams were dropping 20+ on us left and right.

The excuse then was that the defense was young and growing into their own...last year it was the defense being injured...this year they’re trying to blame it on TD.  While I agree TD needs to go and should’ve been gone when Quinn was hired, I also believe that Quinn sucks at what he’s supposed to be good at.  
 

Good guy, awful coach. 

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The defense wasnt any better under Smitty and neither was the offensive or defensive lines, signs of a front office and scouting problem. Jims and Joes not Xs and Os,  best defensive linement the Falcons have had the last 20 years since Blank has owned the team have been John Abraham and Dwight Freeney both aquired thru free agency, the only d lineman we have gotten thru draft that was actually NFL starter worthy has been Grady Jarrett. Of course we all know the whole Falcons front office has to go before Falcons will ever be Championship worthy but Blank is too soft and not man enough to clean it up. Blank would rather surround himself with fall guy do boys front office people as opposed to taking accountability himself for the failures. 

 

Edited by Refried Beans
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16 minutes ago, KRUNKuno said:

It was our potent offense out scoring other teams that made the super bowl squad’s defense look better.  Go back and look at those score from that year.  Teams were dropping 20+ on us left and right.

The excuse then was that the defense was young and growing into their own...last year it was the defense being injured...this year they’re trying to blame it on TD.  While I agree TD needs to go and should’ve been gone when Quinn was hired, I also believe that Quinn sucks at what he’s supposed to be good at.  
 

Good guy, awful coach. 

IMO: Calling Quinn an 'awful coach' is your disappointment speaking and not logic. Four years and two trips deep in playoffs defies him being an 'awful coach'.

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45 minutes ago, freefall said:

I don't follow them much so I don't know how reputable they are in what they do, but according to them since Quinn been here in 2015 his defense efficiency has been 22th, 26th(2016 SB year), 22th, 31th(last year 7-9), and 30th.  So for a defense oriented coach Quinn defense has never been higher than 22th which is still bottom 3rd in the league.  This is also with an offense efficiency of 23th, 1st(2016 SB), 9th, 8th(7-9 last year), and 28th to back them up most year(3 top 10).  For too long having a good/great QB masked this team problem on the defensive side(and to some extend the OL and lack of running game), and when the offense can no longer carry them we get a historically bad defense.  Falcons don't really need a top 10th defense to have a winning season with Ryan leading the offense.  Just a middle of the pack one would have been sufficient, but since Ryan been here Falcons only have 3 seasons where the defense efficiency been higher than 22th(14th, 8th, and 12th Smith 3rd, 4th, and 5th seasons).  Falcons have truly squandered the best time of their history by not building a decent defense. 

If we want to win a Superbowl our D needs to be top 10 or at least close to it.

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22nd not 22th*. Anyways, the only times the defense looked good under Quinn was in the few games before the 2016 playoffs and against Seattle/Green Bay/1st half New England. It also looked pretty good in 2017 but of course, the offense had to suffer that year with Sark.

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1 hour ago, falken said:

IMO: Calling Quinn an 'awful coach' is your disappointment speaking and not logic. Four years and two trips deep in playoffs defies him being an 'awful coach'.

He had a couple players on offense and an OC that made him look competent for a couple years, but his supposed forte(defense) has hindered this team from even more success.  So did the Falcons made 2 playoff appearances because of Quinn or did they missed 2(3 if you count this year) playoffs because of Quinn?  Based on how his defenses have played I would said the latter.  

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49 minutes ago, falken said:

IMO: Calling Quinn an 'awful coach' is your disappointment speaking and not logic. Four years and two trips deep in playoffs defies him being an 'awful coach'.

I’d be willing to say that when you have Matt Ryan and Julio Jones you’re probably going to be more successful than not.  Quinn has nothing to do with the side of the ball that has carried him through his HC career.  In his area of expertise he has been well below average.  Even in Seattle he had elite players on his side of the ball.  As an overall HC he’s had to delegate many normal HC tasks and is out coached with regularity.

Good guy, awful coach.

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1 hour ago, KRUNKuno said:

It was our potent offense out scoring other teams that made the super bowl squad’s defense look better.  Go back and look at those score from that year.  Teams were dropping 20+ on us left and right.

The excuse then was that the defense was young and growing into their own...last year it was the defense being injured...this year they’re trying to blame it on TD.  While I agree TD needs to go and should’ve been gone when Quinn was hired, I also believe that Quinn sucks at what he’s supposed to be good at.  
 

Good guy, awful coach. 

Yep!  We fouled up the hire when you view in hindsight.  Then we messed up even bigger by letting the whole offensive braintrust walk after 2016.  It didn’t make sense then and it’s insane in hindsight.  Insane!

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1 hour ago, Refried Beans said:

The defense wasnt any better under Smitty and neither was the offensive or defensive lines, signs of a front office and scouting problem. Jims and Joes not Xs and Os,  best defensive linement the Falcons have had the last 20 years since Blank has owned the team have been John Abraham and Dwight Freeney both aquired thru free agency, the only d lineman we have gotten thru draft that was actually NFL starter worthy has been Grady Jarrett. Of course we all know the whole Falcons front office has to go before Falcons will ever be Championship worthy but Blank is too soft and not man enough to clean it up. Blank would rather surround himself with fall guy do boys front office people as opposed to taking accountability himself for the failures. 

 

This isn't correct.

Best defensive linemen since Blank bought the team via FA was Rod Coleman.

Abraham was brought in via a 3 team trade.

Dwight Freeney wasn't that great as far as production on the field when he was with the Falcons.

Since Blank has owned the team the best defensive linemen have been.

1.  Abraham

2. Kerney

3. Coleman

4. Jarrett (but he's on the way up)

After that it's a bunch of guys that are not worth remembering

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3 minutes ago, Sun Tzu 7 said:

This isn't correct.

Best defensive linemen since Blank bought the team via FA was Rod Coleman.

Abraham was brought in via a 3 team trade.

Dwight Freeney wasn't that great as far as production on the field when he was with the Falcons.

Since Blank has owned the team the best defensive linemen have been.

1.  Abraham

2. Kerney

3. Coleman

4. Jarrett (but he's on the way up)

After that it's a bunch of guys that are not worth remembering

 

To me the front 4 of Brady Smith, P. Kerney, Rod Coleman, and Ed Jasper of 2004 were the best front 4 the Falcons have this century.  They were good against the run and pass.  The reason why I didn't said best front 4 in Falcons history was because I didn't get to watch the 60s, 70s, 80s, etc... one to compare them.

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Defense looked good  in 2017 against the Rams and the Eagles in thee playoffs when it mattered.Much like 2016.

Quinns biggest issue is consistency and discipline his teams just haven’t been and are to rocks or diamonds.

2018 was hindered for sure but this year there aren’t any excuses he put his name on that side of the ball and it hasn’t panned out.He put a lot on Debo Rico and Neal coming back with himself running the defense and it’s gone south on him like a lot of his players.

What I will say is this if guys like Oliver and Sheffield can show they can play it leaves a few less holes to worry about next off season.Then they can truely go full tilt in on thee front 7.

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1 hour ago, freefall said:

 

To me the front 4 of Brady Smith, P. Kerney, Rod Coleman, and Ed Jasper of 2004 were the best front 4 the Falcons have this century.  They were good against the run and pass.  The reason why I didn't said best front 4 in Falcons history was because I didn't get to watch the 60s, 70s, 80s, etc... one to compare them.

Atlanta Falcons "Gritz Blitz" defense was noted for fewest points in a season (129). Also known as one of the top 10 NFL Defenses of All-Time.[citation needed]  
 
If memory serves me, this was during the mid 70s to mid 80s.  Can't remember all the players, but will investigate and try to edit this a little later. 

Edit --- 1977 was the record setting year for the Gritz Blitz.  I couldn't find a complete list of this group, but, some of the players included, Hall Of Famer, Claude Humphrey, Fulton Kuykendall, LB Robert Pennywell, S Ray Easterling, Jeff Merrow, Greg Brezina, Pro Bowler Rolland Lawrence, and LB Ralph Ortega.  Pretty sure Kerney was on that team...
Feel free to add more names to this list.  Typing these names was like a serious Blast From The Past, for me!!! 

Edited by FalconJim
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Sun Tzu Kerney was drafted by Reeves and Coleman was signed as a free agent. This proves my point even further. UNDER BLANK NO FALCONS TEAM HAS HAD A GOOD O LINE OR D LINE. Under 4 different coaches the results have been the same. FAIL. What's the common denominator in ALL 4 COACHES? MCKAY. He's gotta go. FIRE MCKAY, SABO, EMRY, WEBSTER, and COLLIER! The numbers dont lie. When your QB is sacked 5 times in a game and your d -line gets 1 sack every 6 games that is a TALENT EVALUATION issue not a coach issue! 

Edited by Refried Beans
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3 hours ago, falken said:

IMO: Calling Quinn an 'awful coach' is your disappointment speaking and not logic. Four years and two trips deep in playoffs defies him being an 'awful coach'.

Not my disappointment speaking when I call him an awful coach. I was saying this long before this season! Watching him squander Time outs in the 4th Quarter, unable to make in-game adjustments, and unable to change with current NFL Offenses/Defenses. Hate call someone unintelligent, which he is not, but would label him average in intelligence. Not what is needed to run an NFL team these days. The Rah-Rah stuff only goes so far.

I think Pete Carroll should get credit for him ever being in a position to be hired as a head coach. Then we know what Shanahan did/has done, plus the fact that the Falcons have had one of the most talented rosters in the NFL over the last 4-years. Quinn has indeed wasted a very talented roster this year, and made it look comparable to a college team at times. Not sure why Julio Jones is defending incompetence, but it is not the players fault what we have seen come to a head this season!

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5 hours ago, KRUNKuno said:

It was our potent offense out scoring other teams that made the super bowl squad’s defense look better.  Go back and look at those score from that year.  Teams were dropping 20+ on us left and right.

The excuse then was that the defense was young and growing into their own...last year it was the defense being injured...this year they’re trying to blame it on TD.  While I agree TD needs to go and should’ve been gone when Quinn was hired, I also believe that Quinn sucks at what he’s supposed to be good at.  
 

Good guy, awful coach. 

Young defense growing into their own was very valid. But I didn't see the growth from 2016 to 2017 that the raw stats implied. The problem was that the coaches/front office thought 2017 was a top ten defense because the "total yards and points" said so. They ignored who they played and how they performed versus subpar offenses. Allowing 21 points to a Dolphins team that averaged 14 ppg at the time we played them was allowing 150% of their output, even though on a raw basis 21 points allowed would have been a top ten defense. It's stuff like that that I've been talking about for years now. That's why when people kept saying "If only the offense scored 21 points, we would have won more games" they ignored the defense the offense was facing vs the offense the defense was facing. 

It's been trending towards this since 2017. They've consistently overestimated who this defense truly was since that season. 

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12 minutes ago, vel said:

 

It's been trending towards this since 2017. They've consistently overestimated who this defense truly was since that season. 

Yep... absolutely. I noted the same thing in the "what went wrong" thread for TD and Quinn, not that I was the first...

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6 hours ago, Refried Beans said:

The defense wasnt any better under Smitty and neither was the offensive or defensive lines, signs of a front office and scouting problem. Jims and Joes not Xs and Os,  best defensive linement the Falcons have had the last 20 years since Blank has owned the team have been John Abraham and Dwight Freeney both aquired thru free agency, the only d lineman we have gotten thru draft that was actually NFL starter worthy has been Grady Jarrett. Of course we all know the whole Falcons front office has to go before Falcons will ever be Championship worthy but Blank is too soft and not man enough to clean it up. Blank would rather surround himself with fall guy do boys front office people as opposed to taking accountability himself for the failures. 

 

Defense wasn't any better, but IMO, the difference between these teams winning and losing has been the success of the turnover ratio.  When Smitty was here and we were creating turnovers on the defense, it kept us in most games because we were scored on less and less the more they got it back for our offense.  Teams like Den and NO would have blown us out if we didn't have defenses at times creating 3, 4, or 5 INTs.  THAT is what I think our defenses need to excel at, Sacks and drive stops are important, but TURNOVERS i feel are more relevant to this team's success, especially when we see as an example 2016, our offense had more chances to score because the opposition was giving us the ball back more often.

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1 hour ago, TheUsualStuff said:

Yep... absolutely. I noted the same thing in the "what went wrong" thread for TD and Quinn, not that I was the first...

That's what happens when you're so desperate for a defense. It's like a girlfriend who dates a toxic boyfriend. 

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I couldn’t understand why Atlanta was still expecting success from a coach who’s scheme and concepts were abandoned by Seattle themselves.  And it was obvious to me that it was the players who made the scheme in Seattle and not the other way around.

Edited by ant.accurate
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21 hours ago, Refried Beans said:

Sun Tzu Kerney was drafted by Reeves and Coleman was signed as a free agent. This proves my point even further. UNDER BLANK NO FALCONS TEAM HAS HAD A GOOD O LINE OR D LINE. Under 4 different coaches the results have been the same. FAIL. What's the common denominator in ALL 4 COACHES? MCKAY. He's gotta go. FIRE MCKAY, SABO, EMRY, WEBSTER, and COLLIER! The numbers dont lie. When your QB is sacked 5 times in a game and your d -line gets 1 sack every 6 games that is a TALENT EVALUATION issue not a coach issue! 

I agree. My feeling is Blank meddles with the team more than we realize. Maybe even on Jerry Jones/Al Davis/Dan Snyder levels. It would explain why TD and Quinn still have jobs. 

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It’s very simple. Whether have we ever really invested in the defense under DQ? Outside of drafting defense and we al know drafting is a guess, what money have we put into this defense? Really nothing.

And for Smitty we signed a few defensive players here and there but it felt like we were always drafting offense then. Maybe that’s wrong but thats my perception that we always drafted offense early and we were hoping the late round defensive picks would turn out.

 

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12 hours ago, 32wood84white said:

It’s very simple. Whether have we ever really invested in the defense under DQ? Outside of drafting defense and we al know drafting is a guess, what money have we put into this defense? Really nothing.

And for Smitty we signed a few defensive players here and there but it felt like we were always drafting offense then. Maybe that’s wrong but thats my perception that we always drafted offense early and we were hoping the late round defensive picks would turn out.

 

First of all I disagree that lack of money spend is an indication of not investing.  Draft picks are also a form of investment and the Falcons have spend as much if not more high drafts pick on defense as they have on offense.  If they hits on those pick then money would have spend on keeping those players.  Second Grady, Trufant, and Beasley are 3 of the top 5 in term of cap hit for the Falcons in 2019.  Last year Trufant and Alford were 2 of top 5 cap hit, and the year before it was Alford and Poe in top 5 cap hits.  So the Falcons do spend money on the defense, and if Neal and Jones would become players worth resigning then the Falcons would definitely spend money to keep them.  Heck they were so desperate they gave Beasley money hoping that he would be good.  So I am not sure where the idea that the Falcons haven’t invested on defense under Quinn came from.  They spend high picks and money on the defense, and had they hit more they would have spend even more money on defense.

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