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Summerhill

Why Dimitroff has to go

109 posts in this topic

6 minutes ago, JOEinPHX said:

This cuts to the meat of the matter.  It was central to the rift that developed between Mike Smith and TD - Smitty's draft/FA philosophy was always to build for sustained success, TD's was to try to hit home runs by spending draft capital freely (which, as noted, is the opposite of the Patriot way, and calls into question the significance of his role in New England).

As unpopular a take as this has been over the years, the decline and fall of the Falcons began with the drafting of Julio Jones, a pure TD move that killed offensive/defensive balance and ultimately gutted the depth chart.  They made a recovery in 2016, but then fell again with a draft philosophy that swung too heavily to the defensive side and featured too many bad picks.

I still think Julio was a Blank thing.

He got enamored with the  idea of being "explosive" and  he wanted TD to make that happen.

 

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6 minutes ago, falconsd56 said:

The offensive line  has been solid to good for most of the time under TD.....  the times when they weren't were  mostly because of  of injuries

I disagree bro.  The lines Matt has had to play behind, mostly have peaked at solid and very rarely have been good with a whole lot of average at best years.  Poor oline play and poor defenses have been the staple of the Matt Ryan experience.

Started great, went to crap quickly, stayed crap, started to come around a bit, went back to crap.  

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1 hour ago, Sun Tzu 7 said:

No, he has to go.

The continued failures of the pass rush is reason enough for me.

I prefer someone that prioritizes the trenches and pass rush over receivers.

However, I do find it amusing that people watching the games and seeing the same things I am are thinking the problems are more on the GM than coaching.

We see what we want to see.... if it  feeds into our per-conceived notions of reality then  that is what  we see in our minds.

Its like in 2017 when Matt Ryan was the unluckiest irish man  in football, people still saw  interceptions that bounced off the receivers hands  as by Ryan's fault.

 

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10 minutes ago, athell said:

I disagree bro.  The lines Matt has had to play behind, mostly have peaked at solid and very rarely have been good with a whole lot of average at best years.  Poor oline play and poor defenses have been the staple of the Matt Ryan experience.

Started great, went to crap quickly, stayed crap, started to come around a bit, went back to crap.  

Like I said that is mostly due to injuriy.

When  the line is at its best it has continuity when you are having  a new starter at a different position every game.

 

When they have been healthy  they have lead to winning seasons and playoff births

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17 minutes ago, JDaveG said:

We're watching it for the second time now.  I can see how Quinn gets fired.  I cannot see how TD gets off the hook this time.  It's his M.O. at this point.  Get close, then chase that one final piece while ignoring all the other, more important pieces.

This is a great post and I think essentially reaffirming what I said. Dimitroff is guilty of being blinded trying to fix the team's old problems that he doesn't see new problems developing. 

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12 minutes ago, falconsd56 said:

I still think Julio was a Blank thing.

He got enamored with the  idea of being "explosive" and  he wanted TD to make that happen.

 

Here's some background, and yes, it was a Blank thing, but at the urging of TD.

The need to be 'explosive' arose following the 2010 season, and the Falcons strategy was to sign Darren Sproles in free agency.  He was their one and only big FA target.  But then fate stepped in.  That was the year of the lockout, the normal FA period was postponed and the draft occurred first.  With no assurance that they could get Sproles ahead of the draft, TD and Blank re-directed their efforts toward assuring explosiveness through the draft.  Either Julio or AJ Green became an imperative acquisition.

So you could call the drafting of Julio a panic move, though that's probably overstating things a bit.  But it's worth noting that the entire offensive staff and the HC opposed the move.

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9 minutes ago, falconsd56 said:

Like I said that is mostly due to injuriy.

When  the line is at its best it has continuity when you are having  a new starter at a different position every game.

 

When they have been healthy  they have lead to winning seasons and playoff births

To a degree, yea.  Just go through these years though...lots of bad man.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol/2019

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31 minutes ago, BlazerSlayer said:

The issue then, @MAD597 is since TD has done badly as you (and some others) believe, then Quinn cannot be blamed for this. A coach is only as good as the players available. And I'm playing devil's advocate a bit, I accept. But there we go.

No they both are to blame and both should be fired, this is not a zero sum black and white issue. TD can't build trenches to save his life and Quinn can"t coach his way out of a paper bag. Even if he was given better players Quinn has shown his inability to coach players, call a good defense or be good at clock management. 

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2 minutes ago, MAD597 said:

No they both are to blame and both should be fired, this is not a zero sum black and white issue. TD can't build trenches to save his life and Quinn can"t coach his way out of a paper bag. Even if he was given better players Quinn has shown his inability to coach players, call a good defense or be good at clock management. 

He's actually had decent success with the oline.

It's the dline that's been the issue.

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38 minutes ago, falconsd56 said:

THe narrative that TD has ignored the trenches is as  funny is as it is inaccurate

 

He has selected  either and Olineman to Dlineman with one of the first 2 picks  8  of his 12 drafts

The offensive line  has been solid to good for most of the time under TD.....  the times when they weren't were  mostly because of  of injuries rather than  strait bad play (2013 not withstanding,, even then there were major injuries)  That has continued. The offensive line this year has been hit and miss.... playing well one week  and then poorly the next... Some of that is  quality of opponents and some of that.... a big big part of that  is the fact we seem to have a new starting 5  every week.

I think Matthews is the only lineman not to miss any time  this year.... everyone else..... literally 4 of the other 5 have either missed a whole game or part of a game and is playing injuries ( Mack).

 

I know people hate the injury excuse  but when you look at the better offensive lines in football  there is one thing that usually is a common theme.....  you have either the same starting 5  or most of the starting 5 intact  for the majority of the year...that  continuity is a real thing.

Our  best years  on the line ( 8,10,12,16) have all been when we have had either the same starting 5 all 16 or when 4 of the 5 have started 16.

 

 

I've never said he has IGNORED the tenches I've said he does not have the ability to properly evaluate talent on the tenches. His Draft picks and FA singings along the tenches the last 12 years 9 times out of 10 have failed. We would have been better off putting trench players on a dart board and throwing darts to decide who to pick then TD hand picking them.

You are 100% nuts if you think our OL has been solid to good most of the time TD has been here they have been terrible besides the year he got here and 2016. Injuries are not an excuse either cause TD has drafted players along the lines with known injury/health issues and it's no surprise when those players missed time.

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3 minutes ago, Sun Tzu 7 said:

He's actually had decent success with the oline.

It's the dline that's been the issue.

No, the OL has been trash with only a few years exception. How many OL draft picks has TD not completely whiffed on? The only one that really lived up to it is Matthews. 

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a few years ago everyone said we had the best draft classes and all that...now it's TD's fault? DQ has a lot of talent here and doesn't know how to use it.

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Just now, MAD597 said:

No, the OL has been trash with only a few years exception. How many OL draft picks has TD not completely whiffed on? The only one that really lived up to it is Matthews. 

Sure when it comes to drafting on the OL he's been mostly miss than hit and it's too soon to tell if the double dip was worth it but no one bats 1000%  In drafting you're going to have more misses than hits.

But he's had hits on the oline.  Matthews.  Schrader.  Levitre.  Mack.  Clabo, Dahl, & McClure were already on the roster when he got here so no credit for them.

The dline on the other hand....  there's Grady and ?

 

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28 minutes ago, JOEinPHX said:

Here's some background, and yes, it was a Blank thing, but at the urging of TD.

The need to be 'explosive' arose following the 2010 season, and the Falcons strategy was to sign Darren Sproles in free agency.  He was their one and only big FA target.  But then fate stepped in.  That was the year of the lockout, the normal FA period was postponed and the draft occurred first.  With no assurance that they could get Sproles ahead of the draft, TD and Blank re-directed their efforts toward assuring explosiveness through the draft.  Either Julio or AJ Green became an imperative acquisition.

So you could call the drafting of Julio a panic move, though that's probably overstating things a bit.  But it's worth noting that the entire offensive staff and the HC opposed the move.

That makes me wonder whether bringing Koetter and Mularkey back wasn't at Blank's urging too.

Why?  Because why bring them back if they opposed the one move that defines why this team began to lose depth and balance, UNLESS it was to give some feedback on the front office.

It's possible Quinn brought them back because he heard the same thing through the grapevine and wanted some people who had lived through it to bear witness, but that seems more far-fetched.  It's also possible Quinn brought the back because he believes they're the right people for the job and it's all a great coincidence.  But Lord, I can't imagine why Mularkey would take the job.  So it leads me to speculate that Blank may have told him "I need some fresh eyes on this operation -- can you help?"

I'm probably way off though.

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1 minute ago, mtldirtybird said:

a few years ago everyone said we had the best draft classes and all that...now it's TD's fault? DQ has a lot of talent here and doesn't know how to use it.

My favorite was this past off-season when people were saying it was going to be the best oline Ryan had ever played behind.

3 out of 5 starters replaced and possibly 2 of them being rookies.  Yep.  It gets crazy around here some times.

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Just now, Sun Tzu 7 said:

Sure when it comes to drafting on the OL he's been mostly miss than hit and it's too soon to tell if the double dip was worth it but no one bats 1000%  In drafting you're going to have more misses than hits.

But he's had hits on the oline.  Matthews.  Schrader.  Levitre.  Mack.  Clabo, Dahl, & McClure were already on the roster when he got here so no credit for them.

The dline on the other hand....  there's Grady and ?

 

See, to me that's a huge indictment on TD, though.  Yes, the draft is hit and miss.  Yes nobody bats 1000%.

That's why you don't trade up all the time reaching for needs.  That's why you treat draft picks as precious rather than treating them like Monopoly money you can just trade away to get Boardwalk and Park Place, all the while keeping your fingers crossed you can pay the rent until some unfortunate soul lands on one of them and has to pay up.

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2 hours ago, Refried Beans said:

Falcons are the new Detroit Lions with all their money tied up in Matt Stafford and Calvin Johnson and no offensive or defensive line. I mean Matt Ryan and Julio Jones and no offensive or defensive lines. You wanna see where we go from here? See Detroit. Matt Millen=Rich McKay.

I think you over-estimate how much day to day football McKay has a hand in.

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1 minute ago, JDaveG said:

See, to me that's a huge indictment on TD, though.  Yes, the draft is hit and miss.  Yes nobody bats 1000%.

That's why you don't trade up all the time reaching for needs.  That's why you treat draft picks as precious rather than treating them like Monopoly money you can just trade away to get Boardwalk and Park Place, all the while keeping your fingers crossed you can pay the rent until some unfortunate soul lands on one of them and has to pay up.

Again,  not saying TD should stay.

However I've always thought the value of draft picks mean nothing after the draft.  It's the number of players you end up with after the draft.  It's not the number of bullets it's the number of hits.

The Julio Jones trade is a perfect example of that.  Cleveland clearly had the advantage with the number of picks but it doesn't matter because they blew every pick.  The Falcons ended up with a Hall of Fame player.

Trading doesn't bother me as much if you end up with players.

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1 hour ago, athell said:

It really peaked in 2016, didn't it?  They absolutely nailed that offseason and it took us from average to should have been superbowl winner almost instantly.

Free Agent Acquisitions/Extensions:

Alex Mack

Mohammed Sanu

Taylor Gabriel

Adrian Clayborn 

Courtney Upshaw

Dwight Freeney

Draft Picks:

Keanu Neal

Deion Jones

Austin Hooper

De'Vondre Campbell

Talk about hitting it out of the park.  It was such a high bar that there was no way they were going to come close to approaching it again, but man it has been a slippery slope down to where we are now.  Sad really.

Yeah, it's strange how fantastically it all worked in 16, but the SB hangover seems insurmountable. Particularly with Quinn. He looks tired. 

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2 hours ago, Refried Beans said:

The reason Blank hasnt bounced Quinn or TD is because Blank knows he McKay and the dinosaur scouts got in TD and Quinn's way in the draft and forced them to draft o-linemen and now instead of having a young defensive tackle to help out Grady Jarrett and to free up Beasley to do his thing we have a undersized d-line and a inexperienced o-line and now the fan base is out for blood. Blank needs to let McKay and some of his dinosaur scouts take the fall. They are retirement age anyway get them out. 

What is Beasley's thing?

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5 hours ago, FalconsIn2012 said:

It’s so bad right now that I think Quinn has to go and if a very solid Asst GM is available (Schlenk when he was with Warriors is a good example), you have to fire TD as well..

I don’t think either are as bad as they appear at the moment.  In fact, I believe both will be successful in the same role with a different team.  But the message has clearly gone stale and the once clear vision has turned blurry.  
 

They have both, along with Smitty, done so much to rewrite the narrative of this downtrodden franchise, but it’s time for a fresh start across-the-board. I wouldn’t keep anybody except Ulbricht

I've been battling with this for weeks now, and i'm beginning to turn to disagreement with fresh start across the board.

TD has steadily brought in great talent for this team (mostly in the way of FA, although drafts and trades have not been bad either compared to GMs past. Other GMs like dealing with TD, and he has made some pretty slick moves over the years. This year i think the JJ Wilcox signing was great. But subsequent injury, and then losing Neal, doomed this defense from the start. Oliver was a huge gamble after releasing Alford and wutshisface, we are downright worst secondary in the league.

DQ is another conundrum. Was Julio just paying lip service to the coach and staff? When he addressed the team, did he shine a big spotlight on talent/lack of talent or just individual players not giving a crap, or was he trying to deflect blame from DQ? 28 - 3 still resonates. 

Not since Duke Riley was butt-clapping his way out of the locker room and the state of Georgia  has this team seen a Win. I'm just not sure who or what to blame it all on yet. I like consistency in a coaching staff, and especially at GM. Change now, with our core being older and towards the end of careers, may send a bad message. Especially if the players ALL know that it's not on the coach or GM. 

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6 hours ago, Sun Tzu 7 said:

Here's your problem.

Quinn has the final say on the roster.

So ultimately he's responsible and if you've noticed he has taken that in several areas.

There's an old saying about giving someone enough rope to choke themselves.  That's what Quinn has and that's what he's done.

To be clear.  I'm not saying we keep TD.

I'm just saying everything is Quinns fault :) 

Check the wording on that.  When DQ came, it was saiid “he would have final say on the 53 man roster.”  That does NOT mean he makes the draft picks nor the FA nor the re-sign of contracts.  
 

it Just means, he can do the cut downs in training camp from what is available. 
 

or as Parcell said.  You want me to cook a meal, but. Can’t buy the groceries.  

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3 hours ago, JOEinPHX said:

This cuts to the meat of the matter.  It was central to the rift that developed between Mike Smith and TD - Smitty's draft/FA philosophy was always to build for sustained success, TD's was to try to hit home runs by spending draft capital freely (which, as noted, is the opposite of the Patriot way, and calls into question the significance of his role in New England).

As unpopular a take as this has been over the years, the decline and fall of the Falcons began with the drafting of Julio Jones, a pure TD move that killed offensive/defensive balance and ultimately gutted the depth chart.  They made a recovery in 2016, but then fell again with a draft philosophy that swung too heavily to the defensive side and featured too many bad picks.

Julio had to be who he became for the trade to even make the least bit of sense, anything less and it would have been a disastrous failure, and an ill-advised trade. As it is Julio has definitely made the Falcons a better team than the picks that were given up to him. May not have even made the playoffs in 2012 and 2016 - 2017 without him. 

You certainly could not focus on that one incident and say it was the beginning of the end. TD has had entire drafts disappear that hurt more than that trade could have. Take the 2009 and 2012 drafts, they were on-existent, which would catch-up with the building process real quick. 

I know you know all about Pioli, but if he would have been left alone to build this without interference from TD, Quinn, and Blank, truly believe we would not be where we are today. Drafts definitely began improving when he came over from KC.

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11 minutes ago, RichardCNile said:

Check the wording on that.  When DQ came, it was saiid “he would have final say on the 53 man roster.”  That does NOT mean he makes the draft picks nor the FA nor the re-sign of contracts.  
 

it Just means, he can do the cut downs in training camp from what is available. 
 

or as Parcell said.  You want me to cook a meal, but. Can’t buy the groceries.  

Yep.  Final say.  Just like Carroll and Belichick 

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Sports/dan-quinn-final-roster/story?id=28692295

"To be specific, Thomas, as a general manager, will have final authority over free agents and draft picks, Scott [Pioli] now has responsibility for running free agency and the draft,'' Blank said. "Dan will have final authority over the 53- and 46-man rosters and practice squad.''

B lank went on to say the structure isn't unusual in the NFL. New England Patriots coach Bill Belichick and Seattle Seahawks coach Pete Carroll have final say over their rosters, as does Lovie Smith in Tampa Bay, just to name a few.

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