vel

After the Boom: How to build a modern NFL defense (it doesn't start at corner or on the edge)

71 posts in this topic

Not sure we can get any value for Trufant but trading him is definitely worth exploring and pursuing. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, ya_boi_j said:

I agree on all 3. Honestly after Neal was injured this season I was kinda hoping they’d do their due diligence on every SS available via draft or FA and rescind his 5th year option and move on. I like him but never been in love with him.
 

I’m more of an offensive guy over defense so I won’t pretend to know how each of the 3 fits and where they excel. 

My biggest issue with him has always been the lack of plays on the ball. Forced fumbles are cool, but they are only turnovers if the defense recovers. That's a risky gamble compared to interceptions. He's a big hitter, but if his game is to hide him in space, do you keep him long term? So tough because he's only 24. 

Godzilla1985 and ya_boi_j like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Jesus said:

It looks like he was trying to fix the perceived issues of personnel and scheme by moving to whatever this mess we see on the field. It's a mix of different schemes and it appears to be continuing to confuse the players. He should have kept Manuel or hired a different DC.

Pretty obvious our secondary misses Manual, which was where he excelled as a coach.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Summerhill said:

There's a lot of good info in this post but I don't feel Jairus Byrd is a good example about living in the past. He was an amazing player in Buffalo but showed up in New Orleans injured and never recovered. Buffalo had a top 10 pass defense his last healthy season in 2012. 

The reason it applies is because they let a future proof player in Malcolm Jenkins go. Byrd was legit in BUF, but the scheme they were building around was exposed at that point and they lost the integrity of their defense (Sounds just like Atlanta right now) by chasing something they didn't need to. 

I've said it here, the Saints tried the Cover 3 thing and bailed on it all in one season. It was the smartest thing they did in all of those 7-9 seasons and you're seeing why now. They can run multiple coverages/schemes because they didn't marry one. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Spts1 said:

I got a lot of negatively for post ing that the Falcons should have tried to go defensive line in the draft.  Even did some draft scenarios...

Yes you did. I remember. 

Spts1 likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, vel said:

My biggest issue with him has always been the lack of plays on the ball. Forced fumbles are cool, but they are only turnovers if the defense recovers. That's a risky gamble compared to interceptions. He's a big hitter, but if his game is to hide him in space, do you keep him long term? So tough because he's only 24. 

Completely agree. I've always downplayed the picks because I know it isn't what he does but you're exactly right when you say it's only a turnover if the defense recovers. Honestly I've never even looked at a FF in that light.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Vandy said:

Pretty obvious our secondary misses Manual, which was where he excelled as a coach.

Yep it's unfortunate he kind of faded away.

Vandy likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Speaking of the defense, we hear a lot about the lack of sacks in the last three games and the absurd low number for the year, but no one is talking much about the lack of turnovers the defense is generating. After the Philly game, we have gone into the deep end of horrendous. They almost look like a completely different team from that game, what in the world happened? Did they tasted being physical and decided it takes too much of a toll?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, vel said:

The reason it applies is because they let a future proof player in Malcolm Jenkins go. Byrd was legit in BUF, but the scheme they were building around was exposed at that point and they lost the integrity of their defense (Sounds just like Atlanta right now) by chasing something they didn't need to. 

I've said it here, the Saints tried the Cover 3 thing and bailed on it all in one season. It was the smartest thing they did in all of those 7-9 seasons and you're seeing why now. They can run multiple coverages/schemes because they didn't marry one. 

Well they were also trying to run that scheme with a washed up Byrd or whichever chump was his backup. There could have been a situation where Byrd was completely healthy, played like he did in Buffalo, and the defense did well. 

Also worth mentioning the overall talent on those Saints defenses was much lower than it is now. Look at this depth chart: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nor/2015_roster.htm . 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, vel said:

I'd keep Rico because he seems to be the only secondary player with a brain right now. If they're changing schemes, I'd keep him as a bridge solely for that reason. A hard working, smart player who will push the roster. 

I hear you, and I’ve always been a Rico advocate, he plugs in well if the rest of secondary are doing their job. But he gets exposed when they don’t, and he’s gotten exposed a lot this year as well. He may have a brain, but he’s not making the plays we need from that position. 
 

To me, it depends how season plays out. If defense continues to be historically bad, I let every vet go except Jarrett/Jones and maybe Neal. Blow it all up and find a defensive coordinator who can actually teach fundamentals. 

vel and Godzilla1985 like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, vel said:

The reason it applies is because they let a future proof player in Malcolm Jenkins go. Byrd was legit in BUF, but the scheme they were building around was exposed at that point and they lost the integrity of their defense (Sounds just like Atlanta right now) by chasing something they didn't need to. 

I've said it here, the Saints tried the Cover 3 thing and bailed on it all in one season. It was the smartest thing they did in all of those 7-9 seasons and you're seeing why now. They can run multiple coverages/schemes because they didn't marry one. 

That’s a great take, and look at their defense now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

honestly, given that Quinn would only get hired as a DC by any other team in the league, we should ask him to stick around in that role and hire an offensive minded HC. We're basically the only team I've seen run any tite front in the entire league right now so if we aren't keeping Quinn around we should be looking to college defensive coaches like Dave Aranda rather than trying to find another DC with NFL experience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Kayoh said:

honestly, given that Quinn would only get hired as a DC by any other team in the league, we should ask him to stick around in that role and hire an offensive minded HC. We're basically the only team I've seen run any tite front in the entire league right now so if we aren't keeping Quinn around we should be looking to college defensive coaches like Dave Aranda rather than trying to find another DC with NFL experience.

That is kinda what I was getting at in another thread. We drafted for a certain scheme, that scheme has passed now we need to draft and get players for another direction. He is at the edge of the pack when it comes to whats next for defense and it was kinda ballsy to try and run it without the players. He will have success in whatever his next role is if he leaves ATL 

Kayoh likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Kayoh said:

honestly, given that Quinn would only get hired as a DC by any other team in the league, we should ask him to stick around in that role and hire an offensive minded HC. We're basically the only team I've seen run any tite front in the entire league right now so if we aren't keeping Quinn around we should be looking to college defensive coaches like Dave Aranda rather than trying to find another DC with NFL experience.

That time front isn't wholly unique around the league.  It might be as a base, which DQ seems to trying to do here, but Houston, Seattle, Cincinnati, the Jets, Vikings, Patriots all run it.  That's just off the top of my head and before I get to 3-4 base teams.

vel likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

That time front isn't wholly unique around the league.  It might be as a base, which DQ seems to trying to do here, but Houston, Seattle, Cincinnati, the Jets, Vikings, Patriots all run it.  That's just off the top of my head and before I get to 3-4 base teams.

that's interesting. I'm glad you're around because I've never seen any other team run it, whereas you watch a ton of tape. Much appreciated my dude. :worship:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Kayoh said:

that's interesting. I'm glad you're around because I've never seen any other team run it, whereas you watch a ton of tape. Much appreciated my dude. :worship:

Yeah there's this real trend going around the league right now with teams that base out of the 4-3.  It's become a popular run-stopping front.  The thinking was you'd lose some of your pass rush because you'd slide your ends down over the guards, but I've seen schemes counter that by just sticking a 3rd defensive tackle on the field and have their pass rushing ends stand up and set wide in a 9-technique.  The Bengals for example call it their Big Base package.  Not sure what it's tagged as everywhere else.

Kayoh, Geaux_Falcons and SPITFIRE like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Vandy said:

I hear you, and I’ve always been a Rico advocate, he plugs in well if the rest of secondary are doing their job. But he gets exposed when they don’t, and he’s gotten exposed a lot this year as well. He may have a brain, but he’s not making the plays we need from that position. 
 

To me, it depends how season plays out. If defense continues to be historically bad, I let every vet go except Jarrett/Jones and maybe Neal. Blow it all up and find a defensive coordinator who can actually teach fundamentals. 

I don't see it any different than when DQ kept Worrilow for a season. Worrilow was athletically limited, but knew what he was supposed to do. Rico is the same. He's not a highly athletic, top tier FS, but his floor is clear and doesn't have to be immediately upgraded in a rebuild. You need a bridge to where you're trying to go. 

Vandy likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

Yeah there's this real trend going around the league right now with teams that base out of the 4-3.  It's become a popular run-stopping front.  The thinking was you'd lose some of your pass rush because you'd like your ends down over the guards, but I've seen schemes counter that by just sticking a 3rd defensive tackle on the field and have their pass rushing ends stand up and set wide in a 9-technique.  The Bengals for example call it their Big Base package.  Not sure what it's tagged as everywhere else.

yeah combining tite with some zone/blitz concepts is the rage rn in college. Showing pressure off one side, bringing it off the other, that kind of stuff. But to OP's point, you really do need the right personnel to run it. We have a "good enough" interior DL for it, and Debo is a perfect LB for it, but we need Keanu healthy as a $B and really need to get a proper "Jack" backer (or 3) for it to work. Not to mention the absolute garbage coverage unit we're fielding rn, we really are probably 2 years away from being properly set up to run the "defense of the future" competently.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, vel said:

I'd trade Trufant as soon as possible. Send him to Philly this year for a pick if you can. Allen can stay. He's smart enough to run multiple schemes. Neal is tough. He will cost $6MM and have not played a full season in two years (Only three games since 2017). That's the toughest one. Wouldn't be against them trading him somewhere if they could get a decent enough pick back. Between him and Rico, you'd be paying almost $14MM for safety play that you can't truly project. That's too risky. 

This is why the rest of the way Miller Sheffield and Kazee are very important and seeing if these guys develop and are up to week in week out NFL football.If they can I’m with you on the Trufant trade.

1 hour ago, SPITFIRE said:

I would keep Neal. He should be very cheap for what you are getting.  Tru could go either way. I would keep Rico he would do better in a role where you dont need to be a incredible athlete. 

Me too I’d keep him he can play LBer in some situations and still brings it when he tackles.I wouldn’t be giving up on Neal just yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, SPITFIRE said:

I would keep Neal. He should be very cheap for what you are getting.  Tru could go either way. I would keep Rico he would do better in a role where you dont need to be a incredible athlete. 

Are the the only options for Kazee FS or slot? Is he missing something to play outside? I would love for us to draft or get a proven playmaker in FA at free safety (not sure who is available) and keep Neal if he will sign for less than top SS money due to his durability issues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First draft tua. Build around him. He would not need the best line. And we score lots of points

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is an amazing read... One of the best posts this year to me. I knew the 2nd and 3rd levels were really struggling. This puts everything into perspective. I really feel like we should invest in Dan Quinn long term but I don’t know if this fan base can handle it. Dan has drafted some good defensive pieces and has been able to get the most out of a few of them but he needs a longer tenure to mold it to what he see fits. TD in my opinion has need to go but they may end up being a package deal.

ATLskinjob likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Offenses win games but defenses win championships.  You know what the problem is with most of these defenses?  Defensive coordinators are trying to excel at stopping everything.  Its VERY hard to do that, especially with the way these new offenses are spreading the field horizontally with formations and routes.  If I was a defensive coordinator I would concentrate on old school stopping the run first.  If I can stop you from running then I can force you to have to attack me with the pass.  I have the advantage because I know in most situations whether you are passing or running the ball.

This starts with me building my defense the right way, INSIDE OUT.   My best players on defense will be:

1. Free Safety.  I want a super cover guy who can cover sideline to sideline. 

2. Strong Safety.  Big time hitter, cover skills optional.

3. Middle Linebacker.  BIG, fast and big hitter.  cover skills optional.

4. Defensive tackles.  I want two BIG studs who can tie up two linemen.

5. Cornerbacks.  Super cover guys.  Tackling is optional.

In my defense,  they can't cover but they will make YOU not want to run routes.   Alligator arms.  It will feature a ton of blitzs and be super aggressive.  We will beat you with aggression, not scheme.  We will give up a big play on one down and make you drop the ball on the next.  It will feature a lot of cover 1 with blitzs like the cover 1 dog. This would be my base defensive style...

 

Image result for if it bleeds gif predator

 

 

alabama1.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We just need to ditch the defense, NFL is basically a Arena League football league now anyways. Just put Ryan in the gun and play two minute no huddle offense the whole game. All the rules are set up to protect the QB and WR so just chuck and duck 50+ times a game. The NFL game today is soft so just expose it, defenders cant even knock people out, if the QB takes a hit it will be a penalty so WHY RUN THE FOOTBALL, just throw every play, every down.  And when you are on defense just play bump and run. And blitz one backer every down. Who cares, season is pretty much over at this point just start seeing how many points O can score in a game. Next year draft DE from Ohio State but rest of this year to make it fun for fans just go all in on offense. 50+ points a game no huddle. 

Edited by Refried Beans

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Vandy said:

I never understood our early FA signing of Brown/Carpenter and the extension of Beasley, and the drafting of Even two more OL early in draft which made everything look even more confusing This offseason....and I said as much during the draft...   but then DQ/TD brought in Davison, Bailey, and clayborn, which made me think well, there is a plan after all. 
 

we were all fooled bro. They had no clue, throwing mud against a wall to see if anything sticks. We all vastly overrated what DQ brings to the table. 

VASTLY is an understatement.

Vandy likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now