MAD597

So those 3 wins at the end of last year? Great momentum huh?

303 posts in this topic

Just now, kiwifalcon said:

Same situation though right if we tanked we get better draft position.

Thats what fans are talking here draft position because they think if you draft higher you have a better chance to win.Which isn’t always the case.

No completely different situation.  We went into the last 3 weeks with 6 wins. Apples and oranges. One situation we were guaranteed a mid round pick, the other we blew a top 5 pick.

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4 hours ago, JeffAtl said:

No one is advocating "purposely losing" - just don't treat meaningless games against disinterested teams that are already playing backups as your Superbowl.

 

Meanwhile we had Oliver, Means and other “backups” playing on both sides of the ball.

Cant make the other team beat you if they are equally bad or worse.

YOU.

GUYS.

ARE.

DREAMING.

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Just now, Embrace the suck said:

Except we lost a top 5 pick and the talked about momentum from last season didn't happen. This is just an imagined outcome not grounded in any practicality.

Quinnen Williams isnt hurt. In fact he made a tackle that turned the tide in the jets game and helped them win. He will be a perennial all pro that could have helped the next regime.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/247sports.com/Article/Quinnen-Williams-New-York-Jets-highlights-fourth-down-stop-Week-Six-Alabama-Crimson-Tide-136942970/Amp/

And everyone believed that Lindstrom would be a perennial All-Pro before the injury. In fact, he made believers of his former Pro Bowl/All-Pro teammates when he played through a broken foot in week one. As for Williams, a top 5 pick wouldn't have been enough since he went #3. The Jets were 4-12 last year, which means that even if we had tanked, we weren't guaranteed that spot. So, he was never in play for us, barring a trade up AFTER tanking.

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4 minutes ago, Embrace the suck said:

No completely different situation.  We went into the last 3 weeks with 6 wins. Apples and oranges. One situation we were guaranteed a mid round pick, the other we blew a top 5 pick.

See this is my thing if you are tanking it suggests you have more issues than where you are picking in the draft.Miami this year tank job for sure you really think getting the number 1 pick is guaranteeing them anything.

A great example of this is they had the opportunity in 08 to take Ryan but went with Jake Long and there been in obscurity since.

Ill suggest tanking isn’t all it’s cracked up to be you are making the assumption the people there making the decisions are competent.Then the talent becomes rendered useless.

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9 minutes ago, jidady said:

And everyone believed that Lindstrom would be a perennial All-Pro before the injury. In fact, he made believers of his former Pro Bowl/All-Pro teammates when he played through a broken foot in week one. As for Williams, a top 5 pick wouldn't have been enough since he went #3. The Jets were 4-12 last year, which means that even if we had tanked, we weren't guaranteed that spot. So, he was never in play for us, barring a trade up AFTER tanking.

I think you are imagining things. No one thinks / thought Lindstrom would be a first team all pro every year. 

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16 minutes ago, jidady said:

I fully agree with your last sentence. It's the idea that any win is pointless where you lose me. As someone else said, it's the crux of this debate and something where people will never line up. I've watched too many teams try to stack the deck for the draft only to make terrible selections to believe that tanking is a good play. But that wasn't the purpose of this thread. It exists as a meanness.

The point that nobody can argue is the most appropriate one for this thread. A draft pick is absolutely useless no matter who it is or where in the draft it happens when that player isn't playing.

how has winning the last few games helped us last year, or helped us in 2014? No guarantee picking 7th would have been any better but it would have given us trade down options to acquire more depth.

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23 minutes ago, kiwifalcon said:

Same situation though right if we tanked we get better draft position.

Thats what fans are talking here draft position because they think if you draft higher you have a better chance to win.Which isn’t always the case.

No, how many times have I brought up the fact a winning season is still worth playing for in this thread? This thread is about last year's scenario after we were already doomed to not have a winning season. Some of you just don't read and want to throw up strawmen.

When you can't have a winning season or go to the playoffs LIKE LAST YEAR which is the subject of this thread. Those wins at the end of the season were pointless and hurt the team.

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4 hours ago, HEIST said:

It's funny watching people try to argue against drafting higher. 

It's funny watching people dream players that actually care about being paid or having a roster spot would ever tank willingly.

We played rookies and backups last year.

You basically are asking the Falcons to sit Ryan and Julio for 3 straight games.

Yeah, the NFL would have a problem with that.

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39 minutes ago, Embrace the suck said:

I think you are imagining things. No one thinks / thought Lindstrom would be a first team all pro every year. 

No one said every year, but he's absolutely someone expected to become an All-Pro. Any OG who goes in the top 20 of the draft is, unless it's just a horrifically thin year.

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40 minutes ago, Romfal said:

how has winning the last few games helped us last year, or helped us in 2014? No guarantee picking 7th would have been any better but it would have given us trade down options to acquire more depth.

When has TD ever traded down in the first round? The whole exercise is chaos theory since there's no way to know/prove where we would be if we'd selected in a different position. All we know for sure is that we took a guy who showed signs of greatness, only to get seriously injured in his first game.

After 2016, Atlanta looked like it had nailed the Beasley pick. Circling back to Mark Sanchez, after his consecutive AFC Championship appearances, everyone thought he was the next great QB. The Falcons have even had this happen fairly recently. Peria Jerry looked like a stud in camp and was in the backfield a lot his two games. Then, he hurt his knee and was never the same.

People fetishize high draft picks like they're magic beans. The reality is that it takes 53 guys. But any exercise that involves woulda/coulda about last year's draft should begin with an acknowledgment that Atlanta took a fine-looking player who immediately went down for the body of the season. 

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6 hours ago, Mescalito said:

Maybe not in football but it does in basketball and baseball.  Look at the Astros.  Ok, I don't know if they were intentionally losing but they were awful perennially awful and kept getting high draft picks.  Now they're the best team in baseball and look to be for a while.  The Browns should be a lot better than they are but they obviously don't and haven't had a good front office and scouting department or something.  I'm sorry, but if you're picking number one overall for a few years your team definitely should be better if you know how to draft well and have a competent coaching staff.

Re: Browns

But again, that’s my point. Intentionally losing bleeds into a team’s culture. 

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2 hours ago, Embrace the suck said:

Obviously the meaningless game championship crowd aren't going to admit they were wrong. They were wrong like the day is long however.

How were we “wrong” exactly?

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3 minutes ago, Vandy said:

Re: Browns

But again, that’s my point. Intentionally losing bleeds into a team’s culture. 

The only way we lose those games to end the season and end up 4-12 is not playing Ryan and Julio at all.

Would the league let us do that blatantly?

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5 minutes ago, Vandy said:

How were we “wrong” exactly?

I already stated how. 

Blew a top pick every round, younger players didn't get enough PT, momentum didn't even carry into this year, and the same players quit on the coach/ fans. It was an all around monumental falcon fail. 

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Sounds good in theory but there are many 1st round busts selected and  many 6th round diamonds selected. Its not a given that a top pick is going to give you a winning team. Frankly I don't think this team could make a winning organization if they got the first 4 first round picks before any other team picked, each year for 5 years.

The wins were meaningless in the scheme of things. Winning those games didn't make this team suc this season and losing those games would not have made this season any better.

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3 minutes ago, FalconFan1st said:

Sounds good in theory but there are many 1st round busts selected and  many 6th round diamonds selected. Its not a given that a top pick is going to give you a winning team. 

By that logic, smart teams should trade all of their draft picks for cash.

Edited by JeffAtl

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9 minutes ago, Embrace the suck said:

I already stated how. 

Blew a top pick every round, younger players didn't get enough PT, momentum didn't even carry into this year, and the same players quit on the coach/ fans. It was an all around monumental falcon fail. 

We benched Alford for Oliver. That didn't carry over.

Quinn decided after the fact to change both offensive and defensive coordinators.

Momentum didn't translate because too much changed.

BUT you aren't seriously suggesting the Falcons would've lost on purpose?

Doesn't. Happen.

Therefore, both sides of the argument are wishful in their thinking at best.

One wants more discipline to be learned on the job and translate to next year. Another wants a higher pick.

Why can't we have both? You aren't out tanking last years Cards or Bucs team.

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13 minutes ago, Ergo Proxy said:

We benched Alford for Oliver. That didn't carry over.

Quinn decided after the fact to change both offensive and defensive coordinators.

Momentum didn't translate because too much changed.

BUT you aren't seriously suggesting the Falcons would've lost on purpose?

Doesn't. Happen.

Therefore, both sides of the argument are wishful in their thinking at best.

One wants more discipline to be learned on the job and translate to next year. Another wants a higher pick.

Why can't we have both? You aren't out tanking last years Cards or Bucs team.

yeah but Alford wasn't benched till late in the year. The DC may have been fired but the real DC of this team has always been Quinn. He also hired Kutty for more continuity. Freeman is washed up and not as good as everyone thinks he is, and Matt Ryan still struggles making deep throws. Defense has the same ailments as last year. can't defend the run, and a lot of players regressed (Campell, Trufart, Oliver, Bustley, Takk, and Kazee). 

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15 minutes ago, Embrace the suck said:

I already stated how. 

Blew a top pick every round, younger players didn't get enough PT, momentum didn't even carry into this year, and the same players quit on the coach/ fans. It was an all around monumental falcon fail. 

Yep nothing good came out of those last 3 wins, only a worse draft pick in each round.

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1 hour ago, MAD597 said:

No, how many times have I brought up the fact a winning season is still worth playing for in this thread? This thread is about last year's scenario after we were already doomed to not have a winning season. Some of you just don't read and want to throw up strawmen.

When you can't have a winning season or go to the playoffs LIKE LAST YEAR which is the subject of this thread. Those wins at the end of the season were pointless and hurt the team.

Does it matter tanking is tanking imagine having that mindset in battle.

Footballs like going to war every weekend you don’t step onto the field of battle half hearted.

Argh no wait minute you would just for a better draft pick.

mad597 going gets tough he gets going the other way with his tail between his legs.

 

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22 minutes ago, Embrace the suck said:

I already stated how. 

Blew a top pick every round, younger players didn't get enough PT, momentum didn't even carry into this year, and the same players quit on the coach/ fans. It was an all around monumental falcon fail. 

So it's a "monumental falcons fail" if you don't intentionally lose?

 

That's some ******-up warped 'thinking' going on inside your brain there, pardner.

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5 minutes ago, kiwifalcon said:

Does it matter tanking is tanking imagine having that mindset in battle.

Footballs like going to war every weekend you don’t step onto the field of battle half hearted.

Argh no wait minute you would just for a better draft pick.

mad597 going gets tough he gets going the other way with his tail between his legs.

 

Says alot about peeps character. 

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15 minutes ago, kiwifalcon said:

Does it matter tanking is tanking imagine having that mindset in battle.

Battle? lol

If we're going there, armies have always given up territory for long-term strategic gain.  Hannibal at the battle of Cannae is a prime example.

If we return to reality, think of sacrificing a piece in chess or a forcing a jump in checkers.

 

Edited by JeffAtl
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15 minutes ago, Ergo Proxy said:

We benched Alford for Oliver. That didn't carry over.

Quinn decided after the fact to change both offensive and defensive coordinators.

Momentum didn't translate because too much changed.

BUT you aren't seriously suggesting the Falcons would've lost on purpose?

Doesn't. Happen.

Therefore, both sides of the argument are wishful in their thinking at best.

One wants more discipline to be learned on the job and translate to next year. Another wants a higher pick.

Why can't we have both? You aren't out tanking last years Cards or Bucs team.

Maybe if players had 'tanked' Quinn would have gotten fired sooner? 

But to intentionally lose just to get a few picks higher in some draft carries way too big a stench for me. Plus like I said earlier, Ed Oliver (and his -0- YTD sacks) instead of Chris Lindstrom doesn't make falcons any better of a team than it is now, IMO. 

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10 minutes ago, JeffAtl said:

Battle?  If we're going there, armies have always given up territory for strategic gain.  Hannibal at the battle of Cannae is a prime example.

If we return to reality, think of sacrificing a piece in chess or a forcing a jump in checkers.

 

The only way we lose on purpose is asking young guys with secure deals to just play bad or coach them wrong on purpose.

You think that happens? :huh:

the ONLY question you have to ask is would the Falcons let Ryan and Julio sit the last 3 games with coordinators supposedly fighting for their jobs...and expect the NFL not to say anything about deliberately not playing their stars that other teams pay to see intentionally trying not to win?

Miami made moves before this season started with future in mind. Same as Raiders last year.

Those moves don't happen in the last month of the season. Mack and Tunsil were moved before week 1.

Get it?

There is no excuse for Falcons to alibi themselves and it's just wishful thinking to expect them to try to lose.

Get it?

I WANT BETTER PICKS TOO BUT THE REAL WORLD ITS VERY SPECIFIC HOW YOU CAN GET AWAY WITH IT IN THE NFL.

Meanwhile, a Top 5 pick wouldn't change our terrible coverages.

DQ just said reviewing today that Murray was able to throw the ball in under 2 seconds on 19 or 20 attempts...yeah. Coverage still sucks so...

Also, we aren't even considering injuries! Change the player and lets say he is still hurt this year.

Guess what? Draft picks in year 1 aren't drafted to immediately turn around the entire team. You have to have something in place; hence the stop-gap signings.

I actually see a lot in the OL moving forward. DL was gonna be a project either way. Better if we cut Vic and signed a vet or two for that $13M truth be told...

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