DirtyBird2

Seattle Coaching Tree

60 posts in this topic

So I was listening to a podcast that had Bleacher Report analyst Adam Lefkoe on. They started by talking about the Texans and how they can be good if Watson can stay upright. Lefkoe then said something along the lines of "How many teams have beaten the Atlanta Falcons badly the last few weeks, Dan Quinn is the worst DC in the game right now". He was asked why a team that was in the Superbowl not too long ago and made the playoffs after that loss could become so bad so quickly. His answer was interesting:

"My theory is this: He was part of that Seattle coaching tree, Gus Bradley now with the chargers...it went all over the NFL because he was emulating the Seahawks and all of there other guys are a lesser form. They don't know why that defense worked but they just have to run this defense, and when has their defense been good under DQ? The best defenseive year they've had was when KS put up the 5th most points in league history and that defense gave up 35 in the SB but lets blame KS for not running it on one down" 

It certainly seems like this is a major key with DQ and something I never thought about. Yes he was the DC in Sea but it wasnt his defense, it wasnt his team. He had Carrols fingerprints all over that defense in SEA. I know there are plenty of OC/DC that become great HC's and can continue there same coaching ways but DQ isnt that guy. This, for me, is another reason DQ needs to go, and I really liked that hiring. His time here is done.

On a better note, Lefkoe also mentioned Drew Brees and his 3 years of being 7-9 and that nobody mentions it. He flat out said what we have all said about Brees and that a lot of his stats those 3 years we garbage time stats. Made me chuckle a bit.

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8 minutes ago, DirtyBird2 said:

It certainly seems like this is a major key with DQ and something I never thought about. Yes he was the DC in Sea but it wasnt his defense, it wasnt his team. He had Carrols fingerprints all over that defense in SEA. I know there are plenty of OC/DC that become great HC's and can continue there same coaching ways but DQ isnt that guy. This, for me, is another reason DQ needs to go, and I really liked that hiring. His time here is done.

Here's a couple of things to think about:

1.  How many years of experience as a DC did Quinn have before the Falcons hired him?  Was he like a Wade Phillips with tons of experience?  Nope.  2 years as a DC.  That's it.  And he was playing with a stacked deck, coordinating some of the best talent you can have on a DC with probably at least 4 HOFers.

2.  Remember the Baltimore Ravens when Ray Lewis was playing?  And Ed Reed and Suggs?  How many DC head coaches did that defense produce?  I want to say like 5 or 6. 

Sure Quinn got great Production out of the talent but he didn't build the defense and he didn't come up with the scheme.

Now when that system isn't working he doesn't have the years of experience that other DCs could fall back on. 

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3 minutes ago, Sun Tzu 7 said:

Here's a couple of things to think about:

1.  How many years of experience as a DC did Quinn have before the Falcons hired him?  Was he like a Wade Phillips with tons of experience?  Nope.  2 years as a DC.  That's it.  And he was playing with a stacked deck, coordinating some of the best talent you can have on a DC with probably at least 4 HOFers.

2.  Remember the Baltimore Ravens when Ray Lewis was playing?  And Ed Reed and Suggs?  How many DC head coaches did that defense produce?  I want to say like 5 or 6. 

Sure Quinn got great Production out of the talent but he didn't build the defense and he didn't come up with the scheme.

Now when that system isn't working he doesn't have the years of experience that other DCs could fall back on. 

Exactly.  Next time this organization needs a vet OC/DC that has been with a team for years that has proven track records. That would even be fine if we get an inexperienced HC (really liking Riley). Just need someone with a clue as to what to do when things go south 

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1 minute ago, DirtyBird2 said:

Exactly.  Next time this organization needs a vet OC/DC that has been with a team for years that has proven track records. That would even be fine if we get an inexperienced HC (really liking Riley). Just need someone with a clue as to what to do when things go south 

I kind of like Kellen Moore because of his background as a QB but **** he doesn't have much coaching experience.

Could be the next Doug Pederson.   Could be a disaster...

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I think any coach is only as good as his players, for the most part. Dan Quinn had some great players in Seattle, so they had a great defense. Every year, coordinators on both sides of the ball get praised, but its often due to their talent on the field. Atlanta's team has been built with offense in mind- way more resources on offense than defense. I think DQ's time may be coming to an end, but I would look at a new HC who has continually had success, even with different players.

As a side note, that early 2000 Ravens team produced so many coaches- Marvin Lewis, Rex Ryan, Mike Smith, Jack Del Rio, Mike Nolan and I'm probably forgetting someone too.

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DQ inherited great players and just regurgitated someone else's defense and got a job he was never qualified for, because this franchise is constantly and desperately trying to mimic other successful teams, but can never replicate the formula effectively. As long as they want to keep being another team's doppleganger, the results probably are never going to be there.

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2 minutes ago, BlazerSlayer said:

I think any coach is only as good as his players, for the most part. Dan Quinn had some great players in Seattle, so they had a great defense. Every year, coordinators on both sides of the ball get praised, but its often due to their talent on the field. Atlanta's team has been built with offense in mind- way more resources on offense than defense. I think DQ's time may be coming to an end, but I would look at a new HC who has continually had success, even with different players.

As a side note, that early 2000 Ravens team produced so many coaches- Marvin Lewis, Rex Ryan, Mike Smith, Jack Del Rio, Mike Nolan and I'm probably forgetting someone too.

1.  Yes but this defense had talent... or at least we thought it did.

2.  Chuck Pagano

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24 minutes ago, Sun Tzu 7 said:

I kind of like Kellen Moore because of his background as a QB but **** he doesn't have much coaching experience.

Could be the next Doug Pederson.   Could be a disaster...

I think he's an under the radar coach, his lack of experience is concerning though. I just think we are going to run into the same issue. 

I know Riley isn't a proven NFL coach but it's hard to argue with what he's done with that team. I think the next coach signals where this team is. If it's an NFL coach we are still trying to win, he goes Riley/Moore I think the team gets blown up.

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Just now, DirtyBird2 said:

I think he's an under the radar coach, his lack of experience is concerning though. I just think we are going to run into the same issue. 

I know Riley isn't a proven NFL coach but it's hard to argue with what he's done with that team. I think the next coach signals where this team is. If it's an NFL coach we are still trying to win, he goes Riley/Moore I think the team gets blown up.

True but here's what concerns me when it comes to college coaches that have never coached in the Pros.

1.  You don't recruit in the NFL.

2.  You're not dealing with college kids.  You can't do the same things to grown millionaires that you can with college kids.  

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7 minutes ago, Sun Tzu 7 said:

1.  Yes but this defense had talent... or at least we thought it did.

2.  Chuck Pagano

Pagano. Thank you! What a staff.

In regards to point 1, apart from Jarrett, D Jones as Pro Bowlers, Neal, Allen and Trufant, maybe Kazee as decent players, the rest might be just average.

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Just now, BlazerSlayer said:

Pagano. Thank you! What a staff.

In regards to point 1, apart from Jarrett, D Jones as Pro Bowlers, Neal, Allen and Trufant, maybe Kazee as decent players, the rest might be just average.

Take a look at the best teams in the NFL.

They're not stacked at every position.  If they're lucky they have a couple of stars and then average players.  It's where the talent is located and if the staff can get the most out of them by putting in a scheme that fits their strength.

Neal is most likely done though.  Unfortunately.  You can't assume he'll stay healthy after back to back years of season ending injuries after 2 games.  If he plays everyone will be wondering if the next injury will be the end of his career.

He could be the next Thomas Davis.  Could be the next Norwood.

His style of physical play doesn't lend itself to longevity.

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3 minutes ago, Sun Tzu 7 said:

True but here's what concerns me when it comes to college coaches that have never coached in the Pros.

1.  You don't recruit in the NFL.

2.  You're not dealing with college kids.  You can't do the same things to grown millionaires that you can with college kids.  

Also as a successful college coach, your system just might not work in the NFL. Chip Kelly comes to mind with his up-tempo offensive scheme.

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1 minute ago, Sun Tzu 7 said:

Take a look at the best teams in the NFL.

They're not stacked at every position.  If they're lucky they have a couple of stars and then average players.  It's where the talent is located and if the staff can get the most out of them by putting in a scheme that fits their strength.

Neal is most likely done though.  Unfortunately.  You can't assume he'll stay healthy after back to back years of season ending injuries after 2 games.  If he plays everyone will be wondering if the next injury will be the end of his career.

He could be the next Thomas Davis.  Could be the next Norwood.

His style of physical play doesn't lend itself to longevity.

Always better to be the guy dishing out the hits than the guy getting hit.

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4 minutes ago, Sun Tzu 7 said:

True but here's what concerns me when it comes to college coaches that have never coached in the Pros.

1.  You don't recruit in the NFL.

2.  You're not dealing with college kids.  You can't do the same things to grown millionaires that you can with college kids.  

True, that is why it is always tough to bring in College coaches but to counter:

1) The NFL is now all about offense and speed, the one thing most college coaches master before moving ranks. Like I said before I think the team gets blown up if a younger, less experienced coach comes in and if thats the case I'm all for Riley coming because I think he will bring an offense with him thats "new" to the NFL and he will eventually get his players. 

2) If we can get someone with NFL experience to coach under him/tutor him we would be in a better position if things go south (not talking like what is in place now, I think there are too many hands in the cookie jar). As far as recruiting in the NFL, I see it similar (I know $$$ is a huge difference) to college when FA comes around. Having a coach with experience in scouting is huge.

I may not know a lot about football but I know one thing for sure, the next few months are going to be agonizing for us fans, interesting, but agonizing. 

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1 minute ago, Sun Tzu 7 said:

Take a look at the best teams in the NFL.

They're not stacked at every position.  If they're lucky they have a couple of stars and then average players.  It's where the talent is located and if the staff can get the most out of them by putting in a scheme that fits their strength.

Neal is most likely done though.  Unfortunately.  You can't assume he'll stay healthy after back to back years of season ending injuries after 2 games.  If he plays everyone will be wondering if the next injury will be the end of his career.

He could be the next Thomas Davis.  Could be the next Norwood.

His style of physical play doesn't lend itself to longevity.

I'm not a doctor, but I would be shocked if Neal were able to come back and be 70 percent of the player he was before his injuries much less close to 100 percent.

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1 minute ago, PokerSteve said:

Also as a successful college coach, your system just might not work in the NFL. Chip Kelly comes to mind with his up-tempo offensive scheme.

Most knew that scheme would not work in the NFL. He had some of the fastest players in the country with his Oregon team, now ALL of the fastest/strongest/athletic players are in the NFL and not scattered to different teams. I think it could have worked more if he didnt run it all game. 

Its also similar to what happened with DQ, scheme worked great in Sea "under" him but stunk here.

 

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9 minutes ago, DirtyBird2 said:

True, that is why it is always tough to bring in College coaches but to counter:

1) The NFL is now all about offense and speed, the one thing most college coaches master before moving ranks. Like I said before I think the team gets blown up if a younger, less experienced coach comes in and if thats the case I'm all for Riley coming because I think he will bring an offense with him thats "new" to the NFL and he will eventually get his players. 

2) If we can get someone with NFL experience to coach under him/tutor him we would be in a better position if things go south (not talking like what is in place now, I think there are too many hands in the cookie jar). As far as recruiting in the NFL, I see it similar (I know $$$ is a huge difference) to college when FA comes around. Having a coach with experience in scouting is huge.

I may not know a lot about football but I know one thing for sure, the next few months are going to be agonizing for us fans, interesting, but agonizing. 

1.  The problem with college schemes in the NFL is in college you rarely seen defenses loaded with talent at every position.  That's what the NFL is compared to college.  EVERY NFL team is loaded with defensive superstars at EVERY position compared to what guys see in college.  The closest thing to this would be the SEC.  Also DCs spend tons of time breaking down film and how to beat an offense.  Sure a new college scheme may be successful for a year but once NFL coaches have a year of film they will figure out how to shut down anything.  Steve Spurrier.... Chip Kelly.... the list goes on and on and on.

2.  Here's the problem.  This might be the last HC before Ryan and Julio begin to fade.  I'm worried Julio is in that right now.  Get the next hire wrong and it will be a serious ground up rebuild.

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Just now, DirtyBird2 said:

Most knew that scheme would not work in the NFL. He had some of the fastest players in the country with his Oregon team, now ALL of the fastest/strongest/athletic players are in the NFL and not scattered to different teams. I think it could have worked more if he didnt run it all game. 

Its also similar to what happened with DQ, scheme worked great in Sea "under" him but stunk here.

 

Everything was already in place and running like a sewing machine for Quinn in Seattle. All he had to do was be the slogan guy and head cheerleader. The pro-bowl and HOF-level talent on that Seattle defense made him look like a defensive guru, but we now know that just isn't true. He's just another run-of-the-mill coach who was lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time to get a HC job. I don't see him ever being an HC again in the NFL after this gig.

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16 minutes ago, quotemokc said:

Always better to be the guy dishing out the hits than the guy getting hit.

At the very least for your mental attitude! lulz  :D

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12 minutes ago, Sun Tzu 7 said:

1.  The problem with college schemes in the NFL is in college you rarely seen defenses loaded with talent at every position.  That's what the NFL is compared to college.  EVERY NFL team is loaded with defensive superstars at EVERY position compared to what guys see in college.  The closest thing to this would be the SEC.  Also DCs spend tons of time breaking down film and how to beat an offense.  Sure a new college scheme may be successful for a year but once NFL coaches have a year of film they will figure out how to shut down anything.  Steve Spurrier.... Chip Kelly.... the list goes on and on and on.

2.  Here's the problem.  This might be the last HC before Ryan and Julio begin to fade.  I'm worried Julio is in that right now.  Get the next hire wrong and it will be a serious ground up rebuild.

Interesting article on Riley and his philosophy

I wont post the whole article but one of the things that jumps out at me about him is that is scheme is pretty simplistic, he just puts his players in the best position to make a play. Im sure there is a lot more to it besides "make plays" but thats something that I like to see even at a college level.

Sometimes your scheme wont work against an opponent, theres no need to change it drastically or not at all (looking at you DQ) but sometimes calling plays that are "money" is all you need to change the game around. 

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