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Not going to lie Sark was better than Koetter

239 posts in this topic

11 minutes ago, JDaveG said:

Every passing system is trying to do 1 thing and 1 thing only -- make the defense defend the entire field.  There are different ways to get there,

Exactly. At the end of the day, it’s all football. Air Coryell likes to spread you out and attack seams. Those seams tend to be deeper at that 15-20 yard range.

WCO, attacks voids the same way. Only more horizontally.

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3 minutes ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

Exactly. At the end of the day, it’s all football. Air Coryell likes to spread you out and attack seams. Those seams tend to be deeper at that 15-20 yard range.

WCO, attacks voids the same way. Only more horizontally.

And once you understand that, then it's easier to see why Koetter learning new terminology is far from ideal, but in the end isn't really a huge deal.  I want the team to have a coherent philosophy on offense, which is why I was so happy to have Shanahan here.  He knows exactly what he wants to do.  His philosophy is complete and air tight.  He is going to create confusion with motion, pass to spread out the defense for the run, and use outside zone to mask run vs. pass and ensure positive yards in the run game.  He is going to effect horizontal and vertical stretches on the same play.  He is going to have strict timing based routes where the QBs footwork has to be precise and his decision-making is largely done for him within the system, instead of asking him to figure things out on the fly.  He's going to take high percentage deep shots, which he creates with mismatches and pre-snap motion.  It's fast, precise, hard to anticipate and deadly.

Koetter's system is too.  We just aren't running his system.  But I see a lot of Koetter's philosophy being implemented in this offense, and I think the more Quinn sees it working, the more leeway Koetter will have to transform this into what he wants to run.  I'm optimistic about the offense.  It's the defense that worries me right now.

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9 minutes ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

Exactly. At the end of the day, it’s all football. Air Coryell likes to spread you out and attack seams. Those seams tend to be deeper at that 15-20 yard range.

WCO, attacks voids the same way. Only more horizontally.

And poor Koetter has the job of figuring out how to stretch the seems vertically, horizontally, incorporate stretch runs, and a power run game. 

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8 minutes ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

Exactly. At the end of the day, it’s all football. Air Coryell likes to spread you out and attack seams. Those seams tend to be deeper at that 15-20 yard range.

WCO, attacks voids the same way. Only more horizontally.

Wouldn’t you classify the Shannahan/Falcons WCO as a blend of both since it likes to attack vertically rather than simply using quick dump off’s as an extension of the run?  It’s why I thought Dirk could blend the two philosophies

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5 minutes ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

Wouldn’t you classify the Shannahan/Falcons WCO as a blend of both since it likes to attack vertically rather than simply using quick dump off’s as an extension of the run?  It’s why I thought Dirk could blend the two philosophies

I'll defer to PMF, but for me, I don't think it's a blend, because Shanahan sticks so closely to the principles of the WCO as run by his dad and others.  To me that's more incorporating other people's plays into what you do.  Koetter ran some sprint option when he was here the first time.  He wasn't running a WCO though.

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7 minutes ago, JDaveG said:

I'll defer to PMF, but for me, I don't think it's a blend, because Shanahan sticks so closely to the principles of the WCO as run by his dad and others.  To me that's more incorporating other people's plays into what you do.  Koetter ran some sprint option when he was here the first time.  He wasn't running a WCO though.

I always come back to this article (We has long debate about it..lol).  It really explains the evolution of the traditional sticks/post Walsh WCO and what Shannahan runs

 

“Kyle Shanahan does not run the freaking West Coast Offense.

Don’t take it from me — take it from Shanahan himself. He educated a local reporter about a year ago. The reporter had requested a one-on-one interview with Shanahan, who rarely grants one on ones with locals. Before turning down this poor reporter, Shanahan asked what the topic of the interview would be.

The reporter said it was simple. He wanted to write a story praising Shanahan for connecting the 49ers to their roots by bringing back the West Coast Offense. They hadn’t used it in decades despite popularizing it during the 1980s under head coach Bill Walsh, the inventor of the scheme. This reporter saw Shanahan as a disciple of Walsh.

“I don’t run the freaking West Coast Offense,” Shanahan explained, except he didn’t use the word, “freaking.” He used a different word we can’t print.

Shanahan could have been more diplomatic, but he didn’t lie. He corrected the biggest misconception about him and the current 49ers offense.

Shanahan has zero connection to Walsh. Shanahan runs his father’s offense. And his father, Mike Shanahan, also has zero connection to Walsh. Never coached for him. Mike Shanahan sees himself as an innovator like Walsh, who created his own offense. And Kyle Shanahan sees himself as the leader of the second generation of his father’s disciples.

Mike Shanahan began developing his offense during the mid-1980s when he was the Denver Broncos’ offensive coordinator. In 1992, he took his offense to the 49ers and became their offensive coordinator. He stayed three seasons and won a Super Bowl in 1995. He was very good. And his son, Kyle, following his footsteps, may turn out equally as good.

 

After the Super Bowl, Mike Shanahan left the 49ers and became the head coach of the Broncos. When he left the 49ers, the late Dwight Clark told my dad, “Nothing against Mike, but he didn’t do what we do. We need to get back to our roots.”

Clark was the 49ers’ vice president/director of football operations in 1995. He and the front office hired Marc Trestman to replace Shanahan, because Trestman wanted to learn and run the classic West Coast Offense. He even worked with Walsh in 1996 when Walsh was a consultant for the team.

I am not putting down the Shanahans, merely trying to clarify what the West Coast Offense is and is not. The West Coast Offense has specific features and philosophies, even though the scheme has evolved throughout the years to incorporate the I-formation and the shotgun.

At its heart, the West Coast Offense is a conservative, ball-control offense. Walsh called a series of short and intermediate passes which he considered “extended handoffs.” He used these to maintain possession, take time off the clock and set up running plays for the second half. Of course, Walsh called the occasional deep pass, but, for the most part, it was a conservative offense.

The Shanahan Offense is completely opposite. It’s an aggressive, big-play offense which features running plays that set up deep play-action passes.

In basketball terms, the Shanahans are similar to Don Nelson, who wanted his players to shoot lots of low-percentage 3-pointers. Walsh was more like Phil Jackson, who wanted his players to shoot high-percentage layups and mid-range jumpers

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13 minutes ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

Wouldn’t you classify the Shannahan/Falcons WCO as a blend of both since it likes to attack vertically rather than simply using quick dump off’s as an extension of the run?  It’s why I thought Dirk could blend the two philosophies

 

7 minutes ago, JDaveG said:

I'll defer to PMF, but for me, I don't think it's a blend, because Shanahan sticks so closely to the principles of the WCO as run by his dad and others.  To me that's more incorporating other people's plays into what you do.  Koetter ran some sprint option when he was here the first time.  He wasn't running a WCO though.

Copycat league. Something works, it’s gonna wind up in someone else’s playbook. Mike Holmgren who was probably the last WCO discipline to run it the closest to the way Walsh did, used to wear four verticals out (all-go special in WCO terminology) when he had Favre, because he had the arm to get it anywhere.

 

So Shanahan’s was “technically” a blend in so much as every modern offense is, but @JDaveG is right, the vertical nature was still based on WCO principles, even though it absolutely was a vertical version of the WCO. It relied on WCO principles like a lot of three level routes where the QB reads hi to lo... a lot of deep crossers.

stuff like this... this is an actual page from our 2017 playbook.

B1F041BF-6CEE-4E99-8248-58BB0C735BA8

 

Which is why the criticism of the vertical nature of Dirk’s offense is curious considering how much we pushed the ball down the field with Kyle.

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3 minutes ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

 

Which is why the criticism of the vertical nature of Dirk’s offense is curious considering how much we pushe d the ball down the field with Kyle.

The difference is Shannahan used misdirection and the run game to set up these deep vertical concepts.   Without a solid run game those vertical concepts get your quarterback killed in my opinion 

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19 hours ago, Bobby.Digital said:

Lol you're on crack. Ryan has missed like 5-6 easy TDs this season. Koetter has been fine. 

True, Ryan has flubbed up a half-dozen TD opps, but wtf was Koetter doing targeting Luke f****** Stocker 4 times ~ including red zone situations ~ and Ridley 1 time the whole game? Was this supposed to be a brilliant move to fool the Colts into covering the wrong guy? lol. If Ridley was hurt, nobody said so.

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10 minutes ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

I always come back to this article (We has long debate about it..lol).  It really explains the evolution of the traditional sticks/post Walsh WCO and what Shannahan runs

 

“Kyle Shanahan does not run the freaking West Coast Offense.

Don’t take it from me — take it from Shanahan himself. He educated a local reporter about a year ago. The reporter had requested a one-on-one interview with Shanahan, who rarely grants one on ones with locals. Before turning down this poor reporter, Shanahan asked what the topic of the interview would be.

The reporter said it was simple. He wanted to write a story praising Shanahan for connecting the 49ers to their roots by bringing back the West Coast Offense. They hadn’t used it in decades despite popularizing it during the 1980s under head coach Bill Walsh, the inventor of the scheme. This reporter saw Shanahan as a disciple of Walsh.

“I don’t run the freaking West Coast Offense,” Shanahan explained, except he didn’t use the word, “freaking.” He used a different word we can’t print.

Shanahan could have been more diplomatic, but he didn’t lie. He corrected the biggest misconception about him and the current 49ers offense.

Shanahan has zero connection to Walsh. Shanahan runs his father’s offense. And his father, Mike Shanahan, also has zero connection to Walsh. Never coached for him. Mike Shanahan sees himself as an innovator like Walsh, who created his own offense. And Kyle Shanahan sees himself as the leader of the second generation of his father’s disciples.

Mike Shanahan began developing his offense during the mid-1980s when he was the Denver Broncos’ offensive coordinator. In 1992, he took his offense to the 49ers and became their offensive coordinator. He stayed three seasons and won a Super Bowl in 1995. He was very good. And his son, Kyle, following his footsteps, may turn out equally as good.

 

After the Super Bowl, Mike Shanahan left the 49ers and became the head coach of the Broncos. When he left the 49ers, the late Dwight Clark told my dad, “Nothing against Mike, but he didn’t do what we do. We need to get back to our roots.”

Clark was the 49ers’ vice president/director of football operations in 1995. He and the front office hired Marc Trestman to replace Shanahan, because Trestman wanted to learn and run the classic West Coast Offense. He even worked with Walsh in 1996 when Walsh was a consultant for the team.

I am not putting down the Shanahans, merely trying to clarify what the West Coast Offense is and is not. The West Coast Offense has specific features and philosophies, even though the scheme has evolved throughout the years to incorporate the I-formation and the shotgun.

At its heart, the West Coast Offense is a conservative, ball-control offense. Walsh called a series of short and intermediate passes which he considered “extended handoffs.” He used these to maintain possession, take time off the clock and set up running plays for the second half. Of course, Walsh called the occasional deep pass, but, for the most part, it was a conservative offense.

The Shanahan Offense is completely opposite. It’s an aggressive, big-play offense which features running plays that set up deep play-action passes.

In basketball terms, the Shanahans are similar to Don Nelson, who wanted his players to shoot lots of low-percentage 3-pointers. Walsh was more like Phil Jackson, who wanted his players to shoot high-percentage layups and mid-range jumpers

Mike may not consider it the WCO... fair... but schematically the crossers, the mesh stuff, the design of the routes... and the stuff Kyle co-opted from Gruden is all WCO, right down to the verbiage.

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Just now, FalconsIn2020 said:

The difference is Shannahan used misdirection and the run game to set up these deep vertical concepts.   Without a solid run game those vertical concepts get your quarterback killed in my opinion 

Exactly.

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19 hours ago, KRUNKuno said:

 

I disagree to an extent.  The second half we saw that groove that Ryan used to get in with Koetter calling the plays.  But the plays are so one dimensional.  Nobody is running free through the secondary on passing plays, and maybe that’s just wishful thinking after having Boy Wonder and then seeing teams like KC, LA, NO, DAL, etc...

It’s a very belabored offense IMO where Matt has to do so much, rather than having an offense that just flows.  Maybe that’s just my personal view of it, but that’s what I see.

We saw it in the preseason and we are seeing it in the regular season. DK's offense does not create open receivers. There are no mismatch creations and there are no plays that exploit another teams weakness. Why does everything have to be a miracle catch by Julio, Sanu or Riley instead of seeing open WRs? DK has helped Hooper but that's it.

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4 minutes ago, runshoot said:

We saw it in the preseason and we are seeing it in the regular season. DK's offense does not create open receivers. There are no mismatch creations and there are no plays that exploit another teams weakness. Why does everything have to be a miracle catch by Julio, Sanu or Riley instead of seeing open WRs? DK has helped Hooper but that's it.

This just isn't true.  Not even close really.  

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9 minutes ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

Mike may not consider it the WCO... fair... but schematically the crossers, the mesh stuff, the design of the routes... and the stuff Kyle co-opted from Gruden is all WCO, right down to the verbiage.

Exactly.  Nobody wants to be known as running their daddy's old coach's offense.  And nobody is.

But to call Shanahan's offense anything but a WCO is just a word-concept fallacy.  It's like putting a horn and a headlamp on a bicycle and saying "it's not a bicycle anymore -- I changed it!"

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42 minutes ago, Ovie_Lover said:

And poor Koetter has the job of figuring out how to stretch the seems vertically, horizontally, incorporate stretch runs, and a power run game. 

poor koetter?  you gonna fire Sark who had the ball moving for poor koetter who has to figure it out? :lol:  this franchise.  I knew it was a scapegoat move when they fired Sark and when he hired koetter it verified it...

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Just now, slickgadawg said:

poor koetter?  you gonna fire Sark who had the ball moving for poor koetter who has to figure it out? :lol:  this franchise.  I knew it was a scapegoat move when they fired Sark and when he hired koetter it verified it...

Where did I mention Sark there? He was in the same ****** situation. Hired to run someone else's offense and when we didn't produce one of the best offenses in NFL history he got the boot.

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Just now, Ovie_Lover said:

Where did I mention Sark there? He was in the same ****** situation. Hired to run someone else's offense and when we didn't produce one of the best offenses in NFL history he got the boot.

YOU didn't hire Sark.  You know exactly what point I'm making.  The Falcons fired Sark for no reason.  If they kept him you wouldn't have to worry about " poor " koetter figuring out anything.  The problem last season was the defense but Quinn  wasn't gonna fire himself so he got rid of folks around him.  Thats how it works in coaching...

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3 hours ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

This is a very detailed explanation f our offense under Shanny.  That offense made the QB’s job easdier.  Simpler reads, fewer throws into tight windows and as a result, fewer INT’s.  I don’t care what anyone says this is not the offense I have seen in 2019

Film Room: Examining the Kyle Shanahan Offense Part 1 — The Passing Game

Shanahan’s play designs scheme receivers open and take pressure off the quarterback by going under center on play action for mid to deep field passing plays. For every coverage, many of Shanahan’s passing concepts stress the defense on one side of the field, making the quarterback’s job just that much easier to execute.

The offense Kyle Shanahan schemes gives the quarterback multiple pre-snap options based on the pre-snap look of the defense. On several occassions, Matt Ryan was given a “packaged play” known as the “run-pass option” (RPO). 

In the RPO, the quarterback has the option of handing the ball off to the running back or passing to receiver based on the pre-snap look, or the post-snap movement, of the defense. The goal is to always make the defense wrong.

Against the Raiders in Week 2, Matt Ryan hit tight end Jacob Tamme for a 15-yard gain on this RPO off of the outside zone-run blocking scheme:

RPO_Pop_pass_off_OZ.jpg

The play is essentially a called run. You can see this in the movement of the running back and offensive line as they move to reach and get up field on their outside zone run blocks.

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What helps sell the play is the lineman and running back do not ultimately know where that ball is going so they must stick to their assignments.

The play gives the quarterback the option to abort the run in favor of the pass, based on the defensive alignment or post-snap movement. Right away, Ryan notices the strength of the defense is set to the right side of the offense’s formation.

At the snap, the defense flows in the direction of the blocking, leaving a void in the middle of the field vacated by the linebackers. Tamme gets inside his defender and Ryan hits him for an easy 15-yard completion:

 

At the snap, the defense flows in the direction of the blocking, leaving a void in the middle of the field vacated by the linebackers. Tamme gets inside his defender and Ryan hits him for an easy 15-yard completion.

We had an RPO like this vs the Eagles just last week. Matt hit a TE after not handing it off.

I don’t remember if it was from under C or out of shotgun.

But the concept is there.

And that’s really what it boils down to.

We’d have to break down every single play and see what has WC concepts or not to truly get to the bottom of this.

So that’s definitely one play that emphasized horizontal spacing.

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fwiw, I'm not a Koetter fan. But I have NO complaints or offensive strategy with the play calling the last two weeks. I'm seeing a lot of (positive) Mularkey influence as well. I think they are making a good team.

Last week Philly went cover 0, and we responded the way we should, by taking deep shots. We hit on 1 of 3. That is about the league average and has NOTHING to do with play calling. When our protection began breaking down, Koetter adjusted AGAIN with quick hitting dumps and screens. Frankly, I thought it was the best called game I've seen since Kyle was here.

Likewise, this week. I only saw one or two plays where I would say "ummm...probably not a good call." Most of the problems were penalties and Matt's reads and execution. This week we mostly faced cover 2 shell. The weakness of the cover 2 is the mid to deep middle which is covered by the MLB. That's EXACTLY where we attacked. We also faced a rookie MLB. He was the key to our whole strategy. Our run game was mostly inside zone. The throws were mostly play action. The goal was to have that rookie not knowing whether to go forward or backward. To his credit, he did pretty well. But we ate them up with Freeman up the middle and crossing routes all day.

Take away about 5 procedure penalties, Matt's misread of a wide open Julio when we settled for a FG, and the horrible red zone INT, and we would have won that game going away. There may be some learning curve for Matt and others, but overall the problems this year have NOTHING to do with Koetter.

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4 minutes ago, Ergo Proxy said:

We had an RPO like this vs the Eagles just last week. Matt hit a TE after not handing it off.

I don’t remember if it was from under C or out of shotgun.

But the concept is there.

And that’s really what it boils down to.

We’d have to break down every single play and see what has WC concepts or not to truly get to the bottom of this.

So that’s definitely one play that emphasized horizontal spacing.

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19 hours ago, falconsd56 said:

Once again this place shows its stupidity in a falcons loss.

Like clockwork

Not any dumber than the defensive scheme that our beloved Falcons ran yesterday...

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33 minutes ago, slickgadawg said:

YOU didn't hire Sark.  You know exactly what point I'm making.  The Falcons fired Sark for no reason.  If they kept him you wouldn't have to worry about " poor " koetter figuring out anything.  The problem last season was the defense but Quinn  wasn't gonna fire himself so he got rid of folks around him.  Thats how it works in coaching...

Idk what you're trying to get at lol. I didnt mention Sark. I'm talking about the situation we are in right now.

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3 hours ago, JDaveG said:

I doubt it had anything at all to do with it, but I recall me, @PeytonMannings Forehead, and maybe 1 or 2 others telling everyone here Sark wasn't the problem.  I was fine firing him, or not, but everyone here wanted him gone.

Now y'all hate the new guy.  Rinse and repeat.  Koetter is pretty far down on my list of problems with this team.

I wanted Sark gone but only if the Falcons replaced him with Kubiak (my #1 choice). Unfortunately, the Broncos cockblocked us from hiring him.

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Deep down, it wasn’t that Sark was that bad, it was just Kyle was a hard act to follow. If we had a stellar defense with Sark, who is not to say we could have won it all?

Its strange seeing Sark back with Bama. Not that he was a permanent fixture here. I just wish we could be something special on both sides of the ball.

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