ryantlanta

Not going to lie Sark was better than Koetter

239 posts in this topic

7 hours ago, Knight of God said:

It’s stupid bro. At this point I am able to call every play just like last time

Yeah, it’s very predictable. I’m just not a fan of the system. And it’s not just Ryan who’s had the  higher INT. Ratio in this system. Almost all qbs who work with OCs from the Coryell vert system have big numbers, but big miscues. I’m not listing every QB, but the lack of pass pro is another downfall.

In defense of Ryan and Koetter, they’re simply doing what the system is based upon mid and deep range passing and attacking vertically. The power run aspect is still suspect. But the fact is, if you implement this system it’s a true gun slinger system and you will have miscues and its tough on OL to pass pro and the QB because the routes take longer. It’s not as defensive and ball control friendly without the power runn8ng game. 

 

Im just not a fan. This article sums up the good and bad of system https://www.bigblueview.com/2016/7/8/12118050/summer-school-air-coryell-offense-don-chargers-fouts-turner-tomlinson

Bottom line: the system will see a reduction in lower completion rate, it’ll have miscues if one little thing isn’t right and that’s just it. It seeks big chunks of yardage and good defenses will be tough. 

@Vandy and @FalconsIn2020

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9 hours ago, JD dirtybird21 said:

In all 3 games this year, he’s thrown an interception in the red zone and all 3 times, the throw was 100% his fault 

How familiar are you with the Air Coryell based vert system that Koetter runs? If yiu are, you’d know that almost all of the QBs in this system experience a higher INT rate. Look at Fouts, Marc burger, Kurt Warner and others for proof. In one of Warner’s MVP seasons he threw 22 INtS. He had high TD totals and high INtS. Ditto for Matt under Koetter. He averaged one or so Int. 

 

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I was completely against the Koetter hiring. There were quite a few posters that were happy about this hiring. I cannot for the life of me understand their enthusiasm. Koetter was notorious for only being able to beat low tier teams. He struggled with mid tier teams, and very rarely beat top notch teams. Play calling is predictable and I’m still seeing the same plays he used several years back. No innovation, no adjustments, and stale play calling. 

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15 hours ago, ryantlanta said:

Why did we get rid of Sark dude was hitting his stride ryan had his second best year under the dude...

Yesterday I said does Koetter only have 4 plays in his playbook?

We we're a failure as soon as we hired him and I said it then and I'm saying it now.

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3 hours ago, MSalmon said:

Yeah, it’s very predictable. I’m just not a fan of the system. And it’s not just Ryan who’s had the  higher INT. Ratio in this system. Almost all qbs who work with OCs from the Coryell vert system have big numbers, but big miscues. I’m not listing every QB, but the lack of pass pro is another downfall.

In defense of Ryan and Koetter, they’re simply doing what the system is based upon mid and deep range passing and attacking vertically. The power run aspect is still suspect. But the fact is, if you implement this system it’s a true gun slinger system and you will have miscues and its tough on OL to pass pro and the QB because the routes take longer. It’s not as defensive and ball control friendly without the power runn8ng game. 

 

Im just not a fan. This article sums up the good and bad of system https://www.bigblueview.com/2016/7/8/12118050/summer-school-air-coryell-offense-don-chargers-fouts-turner-tomlinson

Bottom line: the system will see a reduction in lower completion rate, it’ll have miscues if one little thing isn’t right and that’s just it. It seeks big chunks of yardage and good defenses will be tough. 

@Vandy and @FalconsIn2020

Just like I stated last offseason when we hired DK, this sure hasn’t looked like a WCO to me. Why would you hire a Coryell-Vert guy to come in and keep a system he has little-to-no experience in?

SMH. 

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3 hours ago, MSalmon said:

How familiar are you with the Air Coryell based vert system that Koetter runs? If yiu are, you’d know that almost all of the QBs in this system experience a higher INT rate. Look at Fouts, Marc burger, Kurt Warner and others for proof. In one of Warner’s MVP seasons he threw 22 INtS. He had high TD totals and high INtS. Ditto for Matt under Koetter. He averaged one or so Int. 

 

This is a very detailed explanation f our offense under Shanny.  That offense made the QB’s job easdier.  Simpler reads, fewer throws into tight windows and as a result, fewer INT’s.  I don’t care what anyone says this is not the offense I have seen in 2019

Film Room: Examining the Kyle Shanahan Offense Part 1 — The Passing Game

bbae49c503d249609197b0ec01a659a7?s=44&d=mm&r=pgby Rich Madrid137w ago
 

This is the first installment of a two part series examining the playbook of Kyle Shanahan. Today we look at the Falcons explosive passing game.

 

All season, the Packers struggled to move the ball due to their receivers struggling to get open. Consequently, Aaron Rodgers had to play at a consistently high level to “run the table” and make it to the NFC Championship game against the Falcons.

The stark contrast between the Packers and Falcons is the signal-caller on the sidelines. It becomes apparent fairly quickly when watching Shanahan’s offense (or any offense) that you can pinpoint certain things he does to put players in positions to succeed. One need only look back and see how Kelly schemed guys wide open who otherwise would not step on the field for any other NFL team.

Shanahan’s play designs scheme receivers open and take pressure off the quarterback by going under center on play action for mid to deep field passing plays. For every coverage, many of Shanahan’s passing concepts stress the defense on one side of the field, making the quarterback’s job just that much easier to execute.

The offense Kyle Shanahan schemes gives the quarterback multiple pre-snap options based on the pre-snap look of the defense. On several occassions, Matt Ryan was given a “packaged play” known as the “run-pass option” (RPO). 

In the RPO, the quarterback has the option of handing the ball off to the running back or passing to receiver based on the pre-snap look, or the post-snap movement, of the defense. The goal is to always make the defense wrong.

Against the Raiders in Week 2, Matt Ryan hit tight end Jacob Tamme for a 15-yard gain on this RPO off of the outside zone-run blocking scheme:

RPO_Pop_pass_off_OZ.jpg

The play is essentially a called run. You can see this in the movement of the running back and offensive line as they move to reach and get up field on their outside zone run blocks.

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What helps sell the play is the lineman and running back do not ultimately know where that ball is going so they must stick to their assignments.

The play gives the quarterback the option to abort the run in favor of the pass, based on the defensive alignment or post-snap movement. Right away, Ryan notices the strength of the defense is set to the right side of the offense’s formation.

At the snap, the defense flows in the direction of the blocking, leaving a void in the middle of the field vacated by the linebackers. Tamme gets inside his defender and Ryan hits him for an easy 15-yard completion:

 

At the snap, the defense flows in the direction of the blocking, leaving a void in the middle of the field vacated by the linebackers. Tamme gets inside his defender and Ryan hits him for an easy 15-yard completion:

Another example came in the divisional round playoff game against the Seahawks.

The pre-snap look of the defense right away dictated the direction of the play.

The resulting play ended in a touchdown for Julio Jones:

Slide4.jpg

The key for this play is the slot cornerback to the offense’s left lined up too wide over the two receiver bunch with Seahawks defensive back Richard Sherman playing off-coverage over the bunch.

Ryan recognized the secondary alignment (Sherman’s depth) and the flow of the running back and offensive line helped to draw in the linebackers just enough for Ryan to hit Jones over the middle for the touchdown.

 

This play epitomizes Shanahan’s coaching career. It’s not a particularly difficult read for the quarterback and it doesn’t require a precision pass into a tight window. 

Shanahan has regularly been able to have success despite the personnel groupings he’s had in his career, which also feature Robert Griffin III and Brian Hoyer. 

Kyle Shanahan is best known for what he did propel RGIII to Rookie of the Year in 2012.

Another way Kyle Shanahan found success is in knowing his opponents tendencies. The Falcons faced the Seahawks twice this season so Shanahan is intimately familiar with the 49ers division rival.

In this next play also from the divisional playoff game, Shanahan knows the Seahawks are always primarily in cover 3. It’s not always a traditional cover 3 because, like most defenses, they shift and adjust to the play post-snap.

Slide3.jpg

The Falcons are running the “sail concept” against Seattle’s cover 3 defense. Shanahan lines them up with two receivers spread to the right and a tighter two-receiver bunch to the quarterback’s left with the running back next to Ryan.

The sail concept looks to stretch the defense at all levels of the coverage, knowing the defense doesn’t have that third level:

Kyle Shanahan is stressing the cornerback on that side of the field.

In cover 3, that corner is responsible for the deep third so Shanahan sends two receivers into that area on a deep post and a corner route.

To ensure the linebacker doesn’t drop into coverage with the corner route, he also sends a receiver out into the flat to open that corner void.

The result is a touchdown in the void, due to the corner not being able to pass the deep receiver off to the safety, leaving Tevin Coleman wide open in the end zone:

 

Earlier in the season against Seattle, Kyle Shanahan called a slightly different variation of the sail concept that switched receiver roles to the same side of the field.   

The Seahawks are in their base 4-3 cover 3 defense:

Slide5.jpg

This time, instead of the running back going out on the corner route, the tight end charges straight up the field toward safety Earl Thomas before breaking to the corner. The outside receiver cuts in at a shallow five yards before breaking out to the flat and Julio Jones, the middle receiver to that side, runs the slot fade.

The coverage principle was the same. Sherman jumped the shallow flat route and Jones’ man widened out to the deep third with Jones’ route.

Ryan and the tight end hold the safety long enough with for Jones to get open, and Ryan drops a perfect on-time accurate pass in the window between the pylon and the safety.

Jones’ momentum carries him to the end zone for the touchdown:

 

The last way Kyle Shanahan schemes to beat a defense is by leveraging his talent on the roster to create a mismatch on the field. Against the Broncos, Shanahan forced their defensive personnel to remain in base personnel groupings all game, allowing the Falcons offense to take advantage by putting the Broncos’ linebackers in space.

On 1st and 10 in 21 personnel (two backs, one tight end), Falcons fullback Patrick DiMarco split wide outside the numbers, while running back Tevin Coleman motioned to the slot creating a trips set to the right of the offense.

The Broncos in a cover “two man” defense, dropped a linebacker out to cover Coleman:

Slide6.jpg

At the snap, tight end Austin Hooper released downfield on a seam route with Coleman running a dig across the field underneath Hooper, creating a rub.

This rub put the linebackers in the same space, with Todd Davis (covering Coleman) having to work over the top of linebacker Brandon Marshall (covering Hooper).

Davis couldn’t get to Coleman and this great play design against man coverage allowed Coleman to catch and run for 48 yards:

 

Later in the game, the Falcons again shifted to an empty set and motioned Coleman again out to the slot inside DiMarco.

The Broncos this time were in a cover one “man free” defense:

Slide7.jpg

The Falcons were again able to dictate the match-up they wanted with Davis again in coverage with Coleman. Coleman ran a slot fade route while the Broncos sent pressure against Ryan.

With the pocket collapsing around Ryan, he threw a perfect pass to Coleman in stride for a 49-yard gain:

 

Coleman was able to beat Davis by a few yards.

Another matchup dictated by Shanahan’s offense that bent the defense to their will.

 

In part two of this series, we’ll look at the running game Kyle Shanahan employs and how it’s used to complement the passing game.

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3 hours ago, MSalmon said:

How familiar are you with the Air Coryell based vert system that Koetter runs? If yiu are, you’d know that almost all of the QBs in this system experience a higher INT rate. Look at Fouts, Marc burger, Kurt Warner and others for proof. In one of Warner’s MVP seasons he threw 22 INtS. He had high TD totals and high INtS. Ditto for Matt under Koetter. He averaged one or so Int. 

 

I’m familiar and I am aware. But I also know when interceptions are a result of a play breaking down, defenders making a play, or a QB making a bad decision. In this case, it was Ryan making bad decisions. His interception yesterday wasn’t even close. If the play was designed to go to stocker like you’re suggesting, Matt needs to recognize that it isn’t there and look at another option. He’s a top 10 QB in this league and one of the smartest at that. He’s not playing well right now. He’s forcing passes that have ZERO chance of working. And it’s happening in the red zone. It’s very uncharacteristic of him 

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13 minutes ago, JD dirtybird21 said:

I’m familiar and I am aware. But I also know when interceptions are a result of a play breaking down, defenders making a play, or a QB making a bad decision. In this case, it was Ryan making bad decisions. His interception yesterday wasn’t even close. If the play was designed to go to stocker like you’re suggesting, Matt needs to recognize that it isn’t there and look at another option. He’s a top 10 QB in this league and one of the smartest at that. He’s not playing well right now. He’s forcing passes that have ZERO chance of working. And it’s happening in the red zone. It’s very uncharacteristic of him 

I agree that Ryan’s INT’s have been piss poor decisions.  But the OC needs to know his QB’s tendencies.  

And why does Ryan, with Koetter as OC, have 17 INT’s, 14 INT’s, 16 INT’s and currently on pace for 30 INT’s?  His 4 highest INT seasons will all be with Koetter.  Koetter the ZoC makes the QB’s job harder, Norma easier.   Same for the OL

40% of Ryan’s career INT’s have come with DK calling the plays

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17 hours ago, ryantlanta said:

Why did we get rid of Sark dude was hitting his stride ryan had his second best year under the dude...

Not going to lie the defense cannot stop anyone.

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17 hours ago, ryantlanta said:

Why did we get rid of Sark dude was hitting his stride ryan had his second best year under the dude...

I doubt it had anything at all to do with it, but I recall me, @PeytonMannings Forehead, and maybe 1 or 2 others telling everyone here Sark wasn't the problem.  I was fine firing him, or not, but everyone here wanted him gone.

Now y'all hate the new guy.  Rinse and repeat.  Koetter is pretty far down on my list of problems with this team.

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I think there’s so misunderstanding on what the Air Coryell system is. It’s philosophy is more than just four verticals. 

And there are different strains to it just like there is with the WCO. No one is running a pure version of the Air Coryell just like no one is running a pure WCO. All of these systems are cross pollinated now. 

Shanahan ran a more vertical version of the WCO when he was here. Gruden is out there in Oakland running a more short, rhythm based version.

Dirk hasn’t run that true 4 vertical deal since he was at Arizona State.

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1 hour ago, JDaveG said:

I doubt it had anything at all to do with it, but I recall me, @PeytonMannings Forehead, and maybe 1 or 2 others telling everyone here Sark wasn't the problem.  I was fine firing him, or not, but everyone here wanted him gone.

Now y'all hate the new guy.  Rinse and repeat.  Koetter is pretty far down on my list of problems with this team.

I wasn’t Sak’s biggest fan.  When we failed to score 20 points in five straight games last year, his fate was sealed IMO.

But if the intention was to keep the Shannahan/Falcons version of WCO, they should have kept Sark or hired Bevell, Kubiak or Scangarello.  Hiring Dirk & Mularkey to oversee our WCO just seemed strange

If they liked Dirk, let him run his offense

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12 minutes ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

I think there’s so misunderstanding on what the Air Coryell system is. It’s philosophy is more than just four verticals. 

And there are different strains to it just like there is with the WCO. No one is running a pure version of the Air Coryell just like no one is running a pure WCO. All of these systems are cross pollinated now. 

Shanahan ran a more vertical version of the WCO when he was here. Gruden is out there in Oakland running a more short, rhythm based version.

Dirk hasn’t run that true 4 vertical deal since he was at Arizona State.

The thing that helped me understand the Coryell system better (granted, I don't have near the grasp of it or any other offense that you and others do) is that it is trying to do the same thing as the WCO -- create space by moving the secondary.  Once you realize every offense is doing nothing more than trying to clear space between the line, the linebackers, and the safeties, it's easier to understand that it's just 2 different ways of skinning the same cat.

I made this post a while back -- you can actually watch the space get created in both plays.  It's the same space.  You're stressing the safeties and linebackers to create space for receivers to move and to create space for the run game to work.  It's way more complicated than that, but at its core it's really that simple.

Every passing system is trying to do 1 thing and 1 thing only -- make the defense defend the entire field.  There are different ways to get there, but they all operate on the same basic principle that it's easier to move the football when the defense has to spread out to cover more ground.  It's why the red zone is so hard to attack.  It's why being backed up in your own end zone is such a problem. It's why nearly any team can move the ball between the 20s but the better ones are capable of turning yards into points, preferably TDs.

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2 hours ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

I agree that Ryan’s INT’s have been piss poor decisions.  But the OC needs to know his QB’s tendencies.  

And why does Ryan, with Koetter as OC, have 17 INT’s, 14 INT’s, 16 INT’s and currently on pace for 30 INT’s?  His 4 highest INT seasons will all be with Koetter.  Koetter the ZoC makes the QB’s job harder, Norma easier.   Same for the OL

40% of Ryan’s career INT’s have come with DK calling the plays

Firstly Matt had 16 INTs in 2015, his first year with Shanny which was the 2nd most in his career and tied for 1st on a per attempt basis (INT%) 

Secondly the reason why Matt throws more INTs under Koetter is because Koetter calls more passing plays. Matt's 3 highest pass attempt in a season have all came under Koetter. More passing attempts = more INTs. Matt's INT % under Koetter isn't that much higher on average than his other seasons. 

Also I'd argue that from 13-15 Matt had his worst surrounding talent to work with. Bad teams + bad surrounding talent + more pass attempts = more INTs. 

I also don't think it's fair to blame Koetter for not knowing Ryan's tendencies. The INTs he's thrown this season are just straight up terrible decisions. Something a QB of his caliber and experience should not be making. I'd really like someone to go through each INT and tell me how it's Koetters fault. 

I've failed to seen mentioned from those that dislike Koetter/his system the amount of absolute walk in TDs he's set up for Matt so far just for Matt to miss the throw or not see it completley. I've counted at least two per game. 

Game 1: Ridley + Julio 

Game 2: Ridley + Hardy

Game 3: Hooper + Julio. 

That's 6 TDs right there. Who knows how week 1 plays out but Matt connects on 50% of those and all the sudden Matt is leading the NFL in TDs and we're 2-1 at the very least. 

While Koetter isn't Shanny he isn't a problem. He's shown that with arguably less talent that we have this season, he could lead a Matt Ryan lead offense to the NFCCG (and should have been the Superbowl if not for some classic ATL luck). 

Edited by Bobby.Digital

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6 minutes ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

I wasn’t Sak’s biggest fan.  When we failed to score 20 points in five straight games last year, his fate was sealed IMO.

But if the intention was to keep the Shannahan/Falcons version of WCO, they should have kept Sark or hired Bevell, Kubiak or Scangarello.  Hiring Dirk & Mularkey to oversee our WCO just seemed strange

If they liked Dirk, let him run his offense

I was a fan of Bevell.  No one here wanted him.

If we'd hired him everyone would hate him and talk about how we should have hired Koetter.  It's what this board does.

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5 hours ago, MSalmon said:

How familiar are you with the Air Coryell based vert system that Koetter runs? If yiu are, you’d know that almost all of the QBs in this system experience a higher INT rate. Look at Fouts, Marc burger, Kurt Warner and others for proof. In one of Warner’s MVP seasons he threw 22 INtS. He had high TD totals and high INtS. Ditto for Matt under Koetter. He averaged one or so Int. 

 

We arent running his system. He was brought in here to run Shannys system just like Sark, and just like Sark hes taking blame that isn't his. How do you expect a OC to learn someone else's system in one year, while also running his and running Mularkey's?

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3 minutes ago, JDaveG said:

I was a fan of Bevell.  No one here wanted him.

If we'd hired him everyone would hate him and talk about how we should have hired Koetter.  It's what this board does.

I wanted Bevell as well.  He isn’t a world beater, but his pedigree is the WCO and he is tragically under-appreciated.  Here is a post I made in the offseason

 

In a Perfect World: Kubiak

Who Gets The Job: Koetter

My Preference: Bevell

Any of the three will do well...but from 2012-2015 Bevell did more with less than Koetter:

Bevell Offensive DVOA 2012:  4th  Koetter: 12th

Bevell Offensive DVOA 2013:  7th   Koetter: 14th

Bevell Offensive DVOA 2014: 5th    Koetter:  10th

Bevell Offensive DVOA 2015: 1st.  Koetter: 23rd

 

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4 minutes ago, Ovie_Lover said:

We arent running his system. He was brought in here to run Shannys system just like Sark, and just like Sark hes taking blame that isn't his. How do you expect a OC to learn someone else's system in one year, while also running his and running Mularkey's?

And the flow of the playcalling is actually there is the frustrating part. Offense gets right into rhythm but screws themselves by turning it over or committing penalties. If I were Koetter, I'd be ripping hair out from the Vikings and Colts games. Yesterday, the Colts never stopped the Falcons. The Falcons stopped themselves.

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Just now, FalconsIn2020 said:

I wanted Bevell as well.  He isn’t a world beater, but his pedigree is the WCO and he is tragically under-appreciated.  Here is a post I made in the offseason

 

In a Perfect World: Kubiak

Who Gets The Job: Koetter

My Preference: Bevell

Any of the three will do well...but from 2012-2015 Bevell did more with less than Koetter:

Bevell Offensive DVOA 2012:  4th  Koetter: 12th

Bevell Offensive DVOA 2013:  7th   Koetter: 14th

Bevell Offensive DVOA 2014: 5th    Koetter:  10th

Bevell Offensive DVOA 2015: 1st.  Koetter: 23rd

 

That's how I see it too.  

But here we are, and Koetter is perfectly competent to make it work.  I do wish Quinn would just let him coach what he coaches instead of force-feeding him another man's offense, but it is what it is.  And Koetter is accomplished at it, so it's not like he can't do it.  My guess is next season he'll start to take a lot more ownership of what the offense does, assuming he makes it to next season.

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2 minutes ago, JD dirtybird21 said:

And the flow of the playcalling is actually there is the frustrating part. Offense gets right into rhythm but screws themselves by turning it over or committing penalties. If I were Koetter, I'd be ripping hair out from the Vikings and Colts games. Yesterday, the Colts never stopped the Falcons. The Falcons stopped themselves.

This but somehow it's Koetters fault. 

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18 hours ago, ryantlanta said:

Why did we get rid of Sark dude was hitting his stride ryan had his second best year under the dude...

Saying Sark was better is the equivalent of being called the tallest dwarf in the circus. 

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4 minutes ago, JDaveG said:

That's how I see it too.  

But here we are, and Koetter is perfectly competent to make it work.  I do wish Quinn would just let him coach what he coaches instead of force-feeding him another man's offense, but it is what it is.  And Koetter is accomplished at it, so it's not like he can't do it.  My guess is next season he'll start to take a lot more ownership of what the offense does, assuming he makes it to next season.

I have no doubt we will improve throughout the year.   But the moves during the off-season and our CAP Structure for 2020 hint that 2019 was an all-in season.   Hopefully we get hot late and sneak into the playoffs

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