vel

After Further Review: Falcons’ poor run defense overshadowed something important

101 posts in this topic

48 minutes ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

Agreed.  I’m confused on two counts.  First, why did we hire a non-WCO coach to OC our WCO?  Second, why is Quinn,  a coach who has masterfully run a 4-3 Under with multiple Cover1/3 schemes, opting for odd man fronts?

 I honestly would love if we ran Cover 1 with 4-3 under...used the robber and other variations ala the SB.  Alford always shadowed the Edelman’s...perhaps Oliver isn’t ready yet?

Bottom line: it seems like every coordinator/coach outside of Knapp is coaching and scheming things outside their wheelhouse. 

I believe he mentioned im the offseason how the league has caught up with his 4-3 under defense after watching hours of tape extensively. He had to add another layer to it or switch it up in layman terms. 

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25 minutes ago, ShadyRef said:

I believe he mentioned im the offseason how the league has caught up with his 4-3 under defense after watching hours of tape extensively. He had to add another layer to it or switch it up in layman terms. 

He didn’t really go into specifics but that article was mainly talking about cover-3.

Alignments are sort of malleable. You don’t have to throw out the whole 4-3 and run an entirely different defense because you’re having trouble. There’s a myriad of adjustments you can make to your front without saying we’re just gonna go full 3-4.

Edited by PeytonMannings Forehead

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14 minutes ago, ShadyRef said:

I believe he mentioned im the offseason how the league has caught up with his 4-3 under defense after watching hours of tape extensively. He had to add another layer to it or switch it up in layman terms. 

I’d agree on Cover 3...but 4-3 under can’t really be figured out if the personnel is solid and coaching is on point

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42 minutes ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

‘16 is when I thought he was ok out there. I was never in love with him at SAM, although I understood what Quinn was trying to do at the time. 

Looking back I may have been alright with it because we spent so much time in Nickel so it didn’t matter. :lol:

I see what you did there, you rascal. :)

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1 hour ago, kiwifalcon said:

Why not Bailey on the strong side end and Takk go more over fronts with Jarrett and Davison in the base.

If our interior is fine why not go over and bigger on the edge.

Use VB44 as a legit situational rusher anything 2nd & 3rd and long he’s in get him out of run D completely.

 

If he sticks with the 5-2, could he move bailey to Beasley's spot and put Cominsky at the vacant end spot? Will that change anything? 

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Good thread Vel. Yes, the inside defenders on the defense did their job Sunday. So many of the big runs were a result of the ends not setting the edge. I would have to go back and watch how many of those players were on Vic, but quite a few of them were on Takk, including the opening Vikings play of the game when Takk drew a holding penalty. Chris Spielman even pointed how Takk wasn't properly setting the edge.

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1 hour ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

After watching the replay, Dre was very sub par

This was my impression during the game.

I think we lost some of the ideal personnel to run 4-3 Under; specially since Vic can’t play base run DE on strong side well we relied on guys like Upshaw/Reed/Means to cover that. I think Bailey was a plan to convert fully to the 5-2/3-4 and we gotta give it time.

If we aren’t playing behind 2-3 scores or out in the hole with 3 big turnovers in the first half; at least we’d see them have a shot at adjusting across a full field instead of 30-40 yard drives where 2 blown edge runs is already 7...

I digress...for Vic and Campbell this is their year to earn a payday and from game 1 they didn’t look ready to go eat.

Dre, Keke, Takk, AC, Vic all gotta step up for the scheme adjustment to work.

And again it’s base D. It wasn’t “just” being ran on and kept in the formation. It was being snowballed on in all 3 phases. Made it a run the clock situation for Vikings, even if effectiveness began to wear down.

It seems correctable.

I think the idea was to unleash Grady more instead of having him eat doubleteams at 3T in 4-3 just because before our Nose wasn’t commanding doubles. Also, it was a way to get Vic involved in base D since we lost Means to cover Reeds role.

Am I on the right track? :shrug:

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2 hours ago, Falconsfan567 said:

Good thread Vel. Yes, the inside defenders on the defense did their job Sunday. So many of the big runs were a result of the ends not setting the edge. I would have to go back and watch how many of those players were on Vic, but quite a few of them were on Takk, including the opening Vikings play of the game when Takk drew a holding penalty. Chris Spielman even pointed how Takk wasn't properly setting the edge.

I’d like to see our edges push up the field against the run deliver the blow not wait for them to come to us.

Then our LBers take on what the picture presents after that.

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2 minutes ago, kiwifalcon said:

I’d like to see our edges push up the field against the run deliver the blow not wait for them to come to us.

Then our LBers take on what the picture presents after that.

I'd just like to see them stay in their lane instead of crashing inside and getting beat to the outside.

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42 minutes ago, Falconsfan567 said:

I'd just like to see them stay in their lane instead of crashing inside and getting beat to the outside.

I’d love seeing them do that but only in over fronts with bigger DEs hence why I’d play Bailey at LDE and leave Takk on the other side.If there going to hold there position and read and react they best be strong at the point of attack.

For me Beasley should be used on a strictly situational basis

For me Bailey Davison Jarrett and Takk are our best hope.

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Are the Eagle O line as athletic in space as the Vikings?? They pulled guards and tackle all over the place. They were passing dudes off and maintaining blocks really well. 

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1 hour ago, Ergo Proxy said:

This was my impression during the game.

I think we lost some of the ideal personnel to run 4-3 Under; specially since Vic can’t play base run DE on strong side well we relied on guys like Upshaw/Reed/Means to cover that. I think Bailey was a plan to convert fully to the 5-2/3-4 and we gotta give it time.

If we aren’t playing behind 2-3 scores or out in the hole with 3 big turnovers in the first half; at least we’d see them have a shot at adjusting across a full field instead of 30-40 yard drives where 2 blown edge runs is already 7...

I digress...for Vic and Campbell this is their year to earn a payday and from game 1 they didn’t look ready to go eat.

Dre, Keke, Takk, AC, Vic all gotta step up for the scheme adjustment to work.

And again it’s base D. It wasn’t “just” being ran on and kept in the formation. It was being snowballed on in all 3 phases. Made it a run the clock situation for Vikings, even if effectiveness began to wear down.

It seems correctable.

I think the idea was to unleash Grady more instead of having him eat doubleteams at 3T in 4-3 just because before our Nose wasn’t commanding doubles. Also, it was a way to get Vic involved in base D since we lost Means to cover Reeds role.

Am I on the right track? :shrug:

We still have the personnel to play under. In fact I can argue we have better personnel for it. Now you can mix and match without losing pass rush like previous years.

Vic never played base end on the strong side. He was either at SAM, or playing LEO.

And playing at the 3t actually give you more one-on-one opportunities, especially in the passing game because it’s difficult to get two guys on a defensive tackle aligned on the outside shoulder of the guard as the offensive tackle has to be worried about the defensive end rushing next to him.

 

Just as an aside. We still lined up in the under Sunday, we just did it from the 3-4 alignment.

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11 minutes ago, NWFALCON said:

Are the Eagle O line as athletic in space as the Vikings?? They pulled guards and tackle all over the place. They were passing dudes off and maintaining blocks really well. 

Eagles offensive line is miles better than Minnesota’s and it’s not even close. They literally can do it all.

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6 minutes ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

Eagles offensive line is miles better than Minnesota’s and it’s not even close. They literally can do it all.

Swell

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31 minutes ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

We still have the personnel to play under. In fact I can argue we have better personnel for it. Now you can mix and match without losing pass rush like previous years.

Vic never played base end on the strong side. He was either at SAM, or playing LEO.

And playing at the 3t actually give you more one-on-one opportunities, especially in the passing game because it’s difficult to get two guys on a defensive tackle aligned on the outside shoulder of the guard as the offensive tackle has to be worried about the defensive end rushing next to him.

 

Just as an aside. We still lined up in the under Sunday, we just did it from the 3-4 alignment.

Ok thanks for helping me get it right.

So, you’re saying:

Bailey Davison Grady Takk

Campbell DeBo Foye

Back to the 4-3 Under?

Looks like Falcons wanted Vic on the field more to help with pass rush from that side since Bailey isn’t the best rusher from that spot, IMO, and Campbell hasn’t become that optional rusher from SAM either but is reliable in coverage.

Is Bailey really who you want at 5T? Takk and Grady next to each other is good but they can role protection...

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47 minutes ago, NWFALCON said:

Are the Eagle O line as athletic in space as the Vikings?? They pulled guards and tackle all over the place. They were passing dudes off and maintaining blocks really well. 

 

34 minutes ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

Eagles offensive line is miles better than Minnesota’s and it’s not even close. They literally can do it all.

Yep. Eagles one of the top 3 OL in the league. Kelce is a bit better than Mack and younger. Possibly the best C in the game.

They run more power than MIN but also use the zone. I expect them to run some inside zone if we prove we can cover our failings vs outside zone last week.

Their line is like what we hoped we could be next couple years with Matthews/Gono/Mack/Lindstrom/McGary if everyone were to progress and play like PB talent.

We gotta play good on offense at home to help our Defense. Run the ball behind Jamon and Kaleb. Gotta keep them honest instead of pinned back.

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3 minutes ago, Ergo Proxy said:

 

Yep. Eagles one of the top 3 OL in the league. Kelce is a bit better than Mack and younger. Possibly the best C in the game.

They run more power than MIN but also use the zone. I expect them to run some inside zone if we prove we can cover our failings vs outside zone last week.

Their line is like what we hoped we could be next couple years with Matthews/Gono/Mack/Lindstrom/McGary if everyone were to progress and play like PB talent.

We gotta play good on offense at home to help our Defense. Run the ball behind Jamon and Kaleb. Gotta keep them honest instead of pinned back.

I’m very disappointed that we didn’t run right more. I saw the eagles highlights. Sproles still has It and they ran a steady dose of inside zone against the Skins. 

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33 minutes ago, Ergo Proxy said:

Ok thanks for helping me get it right.

So, you’re saying:

Bailey Davison Grady Takk

Campbell DeBo Foye

Back to the 4-3 Under?

Looks like Falcons wanted Vic on the field more to help with pass rush from that side since Bailey isn’t the best rusher from that spot, IMO, and Campbell hasn’t become that optional rusher from SAM either but is reliable in coverage.

Is Bailey really who you want at 5T? Takk and Grady next to each other is good but they can role protection...

Yes.  If we're going to play base, no need to keep trying to force Vic out there as a LB, when we've got an athlete like Foye on the bench.  

SAM isn't a pass rusher for us.  Quinn gives a lot of lip service about pass rush from that spot, but he's never used the SAM as a real pass rusher in base.  He'll blitz from time to time as every linebacker will, but SAM is more a traditional linebacker spot.  That guy has to be able to set an edge, then drop back into zone, cover tight ends one on one, the whole deal... that also goes for the 5 man front we're running now.  We're not going to be bringing 5 every down so either Vic or Takk is going to have to be dropping back in that set up.  That's what I'm not liking right now.  It's not doing what these guys do best.  

Bailey isn't really here to rush the passer.  He's a run defender.  He's perfect for that closed side end.  If we're playing under then let Takk go back to the LEO on the weak side as that's our designated pass rusher, and get Vic off the field until we go Nickel.  

SAM is where it gets a little tricky.  If we play Foye, then we might not be able to play Under because we need a SAM to set the edge.  Campbell can do it, but as I stated earlier, that's not really where we want to make our living at.  Might have to go to a more stack alignment with the backers and more traditional Over front.

As it is now, I'm getting the feeling that we're out there running more Bob Sutton than Dan Quinn.

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1 hour ago, NWFALCON said:

Swell

That being said, everyone can be beat. Looking back over the game, it was a small sample size, but I like the way the pass rush was breaking down the pocket. And Wentz can hold onto the ball at times, looking for that big play.

We get these edges tightened up, (and don’t turn it over ourselves) we might force them to throw it more than 10 times.

Knock on wood...

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10 minutes ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

That being said, everyone can be beat. Looking back over the game, it was a small sample size, but I like the way the pass rush was breaking down the pocket. And Wentz can hold onto the ball at times, looking for that big play.

We get these edges tightened up, (and don’t turn it over ourselves) we might force them to throw it more than 10 times.

Knock on wood...

I’m with you on that. Hopefully Oliver gets a fire lit under his *** and gets a bit more aggressive in run defense. 

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