Ultimate X’s and O’x thread

[falconidae 21,325]

1 minute ago, RING OF HONOR said:

Honestly I was looking at the front page...and I was like Please somebody make a new thread....Its been the same ones for a while...

No offence to the thread makers...

I think they have run its course...

Nred something elsr to talk about

We'll have the preseason game to dissect tonight, may  have to just hold on until then. 

[Ovie_Lover 29,593]

Just now, falconidae said:

We'll have the preseason game to dissect tonight, may  have to just hold on until then. 

I'm just waiting for us to get another 3-4 thread after we run it tonight.

[ShadyRef 326]

1 hour ago, vel said:

If we made a thread about a 5-2, it would probably get 8 replies and move to the second page. 

Can we seriously make one? I would like to learn what makes the 5-2 special. I know fatboi mentioned how it's weak against spread offenses but considering the athletes we have, is it still a huge weakness? Is it aggressive even if secondary is playing zone? Does it require different type of corners than the standard Richard Sherman size he used to have back in the day? Was there any other team that used the 5-2 last year? Is it mainly used for stopping the run or could it be revolutionized as excellent blitz package compared to a 3-4?

Forgive me. It just sounds exciting. I don't know what most of these things mean and probably still won't understand all of it in its entirety but I like knowledge.  Vel,  vandy, fatboi, peyton forehead, kog, unintentional grounding, pound for pound, Tim mazzetti, ya boi, yo lover etc...

 

Let's do this!

 

[Spts1 6,632]

14 minutes ago, ShadyRef said:

Can we seriously make one? I would like to learn what makes the 5-2 special. I know fatboi mentioned how it's weak against spread offenses but considering the athletes we have, is it still a huge weakness? Is it aggressive even if secondary is playing zone? Does it require different type of corners than the standard Richard Sherman size he used to have back in the day? Was there any other team that used the 5-2 last year? Is it mainly used for stopping the run or could it be revolutionized as excellent blitz package compared to a 3-4?

Forgive me. It just sounds exciting. I don't know what most of these things mean and probably still won't understand all of it in its entirety but I like knowledge.  Vel,  vandy, fatboi, peyton forehead, kog, unintentional grounding, pound for pound, Tim mazzetti, ya boi, yo lover etc...

 

Let's do this!

 

The 3-4 and the 5-2 are ESSENTIALLY the same defense.  The only difference is whether the ends put their hands in the ground or not and if they do, it CAN change their assignment.  I said CAN because you can zone blitz off it and do other creative things...  So, when you are talking about 3-4 or 5-2  the focus is really on the assignments of the ends...

Edited August 8, 2019 by slickgadawg

[ShadyRef 326]

6 minutes ago, slickgadawg said:

The 3-4 and the 5-2 are ESSENTIALLY the same defense.  The only difference is whether the ends put their hands in the ground or not and if they do, it CAN change their assignment.  I said CAN because you can zone blitz off it and do other creative things...  So, when you are talking about 3-4 or 5-2  the focus is really on the assignments of the ends...

Aren't the 3-4 and 5-2 the alignments? How coach Quinn uses his past experiences and 4-3 under principle is really what im trying to get a feel for as to how the defense changes in 5-2 and the matchup problems it creates. 

[Ovie_Lover 29,593]

21 minutes ago, slickgadawg said:

The 3-4 and the 5-2 are ESSENTIALLY the same defense.  The only difference is whether the ends put their hands in the ground or not and if they do, it CAN change their assignment.  I said CAN because you can zone blitz off it and do other creative things...  So, when you are talking about 3-4 or 5-2  the focus is really on the assignments of the ends...

In a 5-2 you're gonna usually have 5 guys rushing, 3-4 usually only has 4 rushing unless it's a blitz.

[Spts1 6,632]

7 minutes ago, ShadyRef said:

Aren't the 3-4 and 5-2 the alignments? How coach Quinn uses his past experiences and 4-3 under principle is really what im trying to get a feel for as to how the defense changes in 5-2 and the matchup problems it creates. 

Just taking a guess here.  Quinn APPEARS to be using the same techniques on the defensive line. I could be wrong because it was hard for me to tell from the angle of the video I reviewed.  Regardless of the techniques or alignments, Quinn wants to get pressure from BOTH ends or Edge Rusher, Outside linebacker or whatever you want to call them. 

In the base 3-4 alignment, the Outside linebackers will primarily RUSH on passing downs and the two Mikes will cover the tight end and running back in passing routes. If the offense goes to spread, I don't see Quinn having his base package out there of Tak and Beasley so I don't think you will see a 5-2 against the spread.  If he is in a 3-4 alignment and the offense is in a spread, then Tak and Beasley will cover the 1 receiver on both sides with help from the safeties and corners.  The will picks up the 2 receiver on his side and the mike covers the running back. It gets REAL complicated if the offense trots out a 2x2 offense against the 3-4 as far as assignments.  This is a BIG IF.  I see Quinn running nickel against the spread...

And I could be wrong.  I'm learning this also...Peyton Manning Forehead and others can clean it up for any errors in this...

[Ovie_Lover 29,593]

2 minutes ago, slickgadawg said:

Just taking a guess here.  Quinn APPEARS to be using the same techniques on the defensive line. I could be wrong because it was hard for me to tell from the angle of the video I reviewed.  Regardless of the techniques or alignments, Quinn wants to get pressure from BOTH ends or Edge Rusher, Outside linebacker or whatever you want to call them. 

In the base 3-4 alignment, the Outside linebackers will primarily RUSH on passing downs and the two Mikes will cover the tight end and running back in passing routes. If the offense goes to spread, I don't see Quinn having his base package out there of Tak and Beasley so I don't think you will see a 5-2 against the spread.  If he is in a 3-4 alignment and the offense is in a spread, then Tak and Beasley will cover the 1 receiver on both sides with help from the safeties and corners.  The will picks up the 2 receiver on his side and the mike covers the running back. It gets REAL complicated if the offense trots out a 2x2 offense against the 3-4 as far as assignments.  This is a BIG IF.  I see Quinn running nickel against the spread...

And I could be wrong.  I'm learning this also...Peyton Manning Forehead and others can clean it up for any errors in this...

The 2 edge rushers don't always rush in a 3-4 often times one drops into coverage otherwise you're rushing 5 and you're exposed somewhere.

[ShadyRef 326]

15 minutes ago, slickgadawg said:

Just taking a guess here.  Quinn APPEARS to be using the same techniques on the defensive line. I could be wrong because it was hard for me to tell from the angle of the video I reviewed.  Regardless of the techniques or alignments, Quinn wants to get pressure from BOTH ends or Edge Rusher, Outside linebacker or whatever you want to call them. 

In the base 3-4 alignment, the Outside linebackers will primarily RUSH on passing downs and the two Mikes will cover the tight end and running back in passing routes. If the offense goes to spread, I don't see Quinn having his base package out there of Tak and Beasley so I don't think you will see a 5-2 against the spread.  If he is in a 3-4 alignment and the offense is in a spread, then Tak and Beasley will cover the 1 receiver on both sides with help from the safeties and corners.  The will picks up the 2 receiver on his side and the mike covers the running back. It gets REAL complicated if the offense trots out a 2x2 offense against the 3-4 as far as assignments.  This is a BIG IF.  I see Quinn running nickel against the spread...

And I could be wrong.  I'm learning this also...Peyton Manning Forehead and others can clean it up for any errors in this...

Thanks for taking the time to explain this to me. So I take it that 5-2 is excellent against the I-formation and goal line packages? How will we fare against Sean peyton and his many packages with Alvin Kamara or an Andy Reid's offense? I don't see the 5-2 matching up well against those. How about using the 5-2 against the wildcat and read option that physical teams like Baltimore gashed us with last year? 

[Ovie_Lover 29,593]

16 minutes ago, ShadyRef said:

Thanks for taking the time to explain this to me. So I take it that 5-2 is excellent against the I-formation and goal line packages? How will we fare against Sean peyton and his many packages with Alvin Kamara or an Andy Reid's offense? I don't see the 5-2 matching up well against those. How about using the 5-2 against the wildcat and read option that physical teams like Baltimore gashed us with last year? 

If they have 3 wr you'll get gashed even if they have 2 RB's you'll get gashed.

[Vandy 39,417]

18 minutes ago, ShadyRef said:

Thanks for taking the time to explain this to me. So I take it that 5-2 is excellent against the I-formation and goal line packages? How will we fare against Sean peyton and his many packages with Alvin Kamara or an Andy Reid's offense? I don't see the 5-2 matching up well against those. How about using the 5-2 against the wildcat and read option that physical teams like Baltimore gashed us with last year? 

4-3 under never goes with a one size fits all...different tweaks and variations  depending on game situation, offensive formation, opponents tendencies, etc.

[Spts1 6,632]

15 minutes ago, ShadyRef said:

Thanks for taking the time to explain this to me. So I take it that 5-2 is excellent against the I-formation and goal line packages? How will we fare against Sean peyton and his many packages with Alvin Kamara or an Andy Reid's offense? I don't see the 5-2 matching up well against those. How about using the 5-2 against the wildcat and read option that physical teams like Baltimore gashed us with last year? 

I believe you can run a 5-2 against anything except the spread and you MIGHT even be able to do it with a zone blitz.  I would have to look into that.

You can run 3-4 against any offense.  Depends on how you like your personnel against different offensive sets...

[Ovie_Lover 29,593]

2 minutes ago, slickgadawg said:

I believe you can run a 5-2 against anything except the spread and you MIGHT even be able to do it with a zone blitz.  I would have to look into that.

You can run 3-4 against any offense.  Depends on how you like your personnel against different offensive sets...

You can't do 3-4 against any offense. Same for 5-2 that's an easy clap.

[ShadyRef 326]

3 minutes ago, Vandy said:

4-3 under never goes with a one size fits all...different tweaks and variations  depending on game situation, offensive formation, opponents tendencies, etc.

Guess I assumed because we have some of the top athletes at their position on our team that we could be one if the only teams able to run it uniquely like when Pete Carroll did with the 4-3 under. 

Also why would a zone blitz be more different in a 5-2 than 3-4? I want to add that my very basic and limited understanding of zone blitz is dropping a lineman into coverage while the 4th rusher blitz from a different position. 

[Ovie_Lover 29,593]

If you could run 3-4 on any offense than every team would do it and we wouldn't have different defenses

[ShadyRef 326]

5 minutes ago, Yo_Lover said:

You can't do 3-4 against any offense. Same for 5-2 that's an easy clap.

According to your previous explanation, it's mainly because a lineman/ linebacker will get matched up against a wide receiver right? Will that be the same weakness for a bear front? (I assume that's a 4-4 alignment) 

[Ovie_Lover 29,593]

1 minute ago, ShadyRef said:

According to your previous explanation, it's mainly because a lineman/ linebacker will get matched up against a wide receiver right? Will that be the same weakness for a bear front? (I assume that's a 4-4 alignment) 

There's all kinds of bear fronts

3-4 bear

46 bear

5-2 bear etc

And yeah if you run 3-4 they will just run spread formations and drop 80 on you. You'll be stuck in zone because you arent gonna have LB's that can play man on their WR's.

[ShadyRef 326]

4 minutes ago, Yo_Lover said:

There's all kinds of bear fronts

3-4 bear

46 bear

5-2 bear etc

And yeah if you run 3-4 they will just run spread formations and drop 80 on you. You'll be stuck in zone because you arent gonna have LB's that can play man on their WR's.

Even if you have unique athletes on your team like Deion Jones? Im not saying he can match up on a number 1 receiver but maybe a 3 or 4 perhaps? 

[Vandy 39,417]

24 minutes ago, ShadyRef said:

Guess I assumed because we have some of the top athletes at their position on our team that we could be one if the only teams able to run it uniquely like when Pete Carroll did with the 4-3 under. 

Also why would a zone blitz be more different in a 5-2 than 3-4? I want to add that my very basic and limited understanding of zone blitz is dropping a lineman into coverage while the 4th rusher blitz from a different position. 

I don’t think it matters Shady. The key in zone blitzing is to confuse the OL and QB. D I c k LeBeau made his living doing exactly that. 

[Ovie_Lover 29,593]

3 minutes ago, ShadyRef said:

Even if you have unique athletes on your team like Deion Jones? Im not saying he can match up on a number 1 receiver but maybe a 3 or 4 perhaps? 

He could but the OC can still take advantage cause you're gonna have Beasley or Takk also manned up on a WR. Even Campbell probably couldn't do it.

[Ovie_Lover 29,593]

1 minute ago, Vandy said:

I don’t think it matters. The key in zone blitzing is to confuse the OL and QB. D I c k LeBeau made his living doing exactly that. 

This but even then you can be ripped to shreds by short throws

[Vandy 39,417]

4 minutes ago, Yo_Lover said:

This but even then you can be ripped to shreds by short throws

Yeah, for sure. The element of surprise is the key in blitzing from whatever alignment you are in.

[Ovie_Lover 29,593]

1 minute ago, Vandy said:

Yeah, for sure. The element of surprise is the key in blitzing from whatever alignment you are in.

Exactly. If they know when or where it's easy to stop.

[Spts1 6,632]

1 hour ago, Yo_Lover said:

The 2 edge rushers don't always rush in a 3-4 often times one drops into coverage otherwise you're rushing 5 and you're exposed somewhere.

Depends on the coverage and the offensive set...

[vel 32,056]

7 minutes ago, Vandy said:

Yeah, for sure. The element of surprise is the key in blitzing from whatever alignment you are in.

This is why I loved the 4-4 formation. It's rarely used formally, but that's essentially what the 4-3 Under is when the SS moves in the box. You need a freak SS and one freak LB. We have both. From there, it's all about personnel. You can put Kazee at "LB" and Debo, Campbell, and Neal as the other three "LBs" or second level defenders. You can still have four down linemen and your secondary is Tru, Oliver, and Rico. Built for teams who don't have the personnel to take advantage of throws beyond 15 yards downfield with multiple weapons and puts a ton of speed/athleticism in the middle of the field and you have 8 options to choose from to send pressure.