Spts1

Ultimate X’s and O’x thread

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4 hours ago, vel said:

The big physical dumb defense that is just going to punch you in the mouth and find the ball after that. That's why we struggled against physical teams. That's how we played wing T style offenses when I played. You get caught trying to figure out where the ball is and you're always going to be wrong. Destroy the guy in front of you and suddenly he's the one that starts to slow down. 

Players, not plays.  Brilliant schemes are great, but football is still elemental.  You still gotta be able to whip the man in front of you.

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41 minutes ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

Players, not plays.  Brilliant schemes are great, but football is still elemental.  You still gotta be able to whip the man in front of you.

This is why I loved Shanny but when we play an eagles, vikes, etc I was scared.

I wanna see how they are against them.

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On 9/19/2019 at 9:15 AM, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

I've liked what Shanny has been building in San Fran since he got there.  That's why I sit back and smile every time we have a bad game and you see people trying to convince themselves he's gonna flame out or leave on his own and come back to save us.  Him and Lynch are connected at the hip right now and it's finally starting to take shape.

His whole thoughts on a "position less offense" is fascinating.  It's similar in concept to what New England was trying to do about a decade ago when they let Moss go and made Gronk and Hernandez the centerpiece of the offense, but now it's on steroids.

Forget the Air Raid and all that spread college stuff that gets predicted year after year to change the league, if Shanny gets this really up and running, that's where the real offensive revolution in the NFL is gonna be.

Help me understand it more what makes it position less? So far it seems routes are just coming from places you dont expect them to. 

 

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47 minutes ago, SPITFIRE said:

Help me understand it more what makes it position less? So far it seems routes are just coming from places you dont expect them to. 

 

Kyle Shanahan on the cutting edge with 'positionless' offense

cWt5y9KK.jpg

The 49ers offense could have a much different look in 2019, and it’s not just because they’re getting injured players back. It appears head coach Kyle Shanahan is constructing an offense that pushes the typical boundaries of the way teams think about that side of the ball.

49ers running back Tevin Coleman, who spent his first two NFL seasons in Atlanta where Shanahan was the offensive coordinator, told reporters that he’s noticed a difference in the coach’s scheme since he last played in the offense in 2016 with the Atlanta Falcons.

“He’s definitely more creative than he was in Atlanta, everything he’s doing with the backs, tight ends and receivers,” Coleman said according to Cam Inman of the Mercury News.

RELATED

Candlestick Chronicles: Changes come for 49ers in OTAs

The running back went on to say he’s lining up more as a receiver than he ever did during Shanahan’s tenure with the Falcons. That’s an interesting note when considering the type of players the 49ers have been stockpiling over the last two seasons.

Let’s consider the 2018 49ers for a moment. The fully healthy version of that offense featured versatile running backs Jerick McKinnon and Matt Breida. In the backfield with them was Swiss army knife fullback Kyle Juszczyk who can line up anywhere on the field. It also had an extremely athletic tight end, George Kittle. Those four alone all had the ability to stretch their on-field responsibilities outside of those typical for their positions.

The receiving corps lacked in that area, and Shanahan made it a point this offseason to change that. He even told reporters at the owners meetings that versatility from his receivers would be something he wanted to fix over the offseason. He wanted more pass catchers who could line up in different areas and take on different responsibilities in the offense.

RELATED

49ers rookie punter Mitch Wishnowsky impressing early

That trend toward more interchangeable pieces started in free agency when the team added Coleman to their already crowded backfield. Then they signed wide receiver Jordan Matthews to a one-year deal. Matthews can play any of the receiver spots in the 49ers offense.

Shanahan’s mission of offensive versatility continued in the draft when they used their second- and third-round picks on wide receivers Deebo Samuel and Jalen Hurd. Samuel is capable of the same versatility as Matthews, while Samuel is a converted running back who played a do-everything role during his final year at Baylor.

Prioritizing a receiver in the second round wasn’t a huge surprise, but the Hurd selection in the third is a massive indicator of what San Francisco’s head coach has planned for his offensive attack.

RELATED

Pro Football Focus: 49ers have NFL's most improved defensive line

Positionless” is the phrase du jour for describing what the 49ers are building on offense. They’re stocking up on players who allow them to vary their play calls and formations without ever changing the personnel. That layer of unpredictability is potentially deadly in a league where opposing coaches feast on tendencies.

Shanahan was already on the forefront of this concept last season. San Francisco ran 11 personnel (one running back, one tight end) with three receivers only 39 percent of the time last season, according to Sharp Football Stats. The next-lowest in the league was New Orleans at 53 percent. The NFL as a whole used 11 personnel a whopping 66 percent of the time, and passed out of that formation at the same rate. San Francisco passed out of 11 personnel 83 percent of the time. It’s the most predictable of the common personnel groupings, and the 49ers utilized it far less than the rest of the league.

RELATED

49ers cut ties with former 1st-round pick Anthony Davis

Where Shanahan varies greatly from the rest of the league is in the use of 21 personnel (two running backs, one tight end) with two receivers. NFL teams on average use 21 personnel just 8 percent of the time. San Francisco utilized 42 percent of their offensive snaps in 2018. By comparison, New England runs it 28 percent of the time; no other team eclipsed 15 percent, and the Rams didn’t use it once. While the league had a 40-60 pass-to-run ratio out of 21 personnel, the 49ers were at 46-54.

Keeping defenses off balance through personnel groupings will be a hallmark of the 2019 iteration of the 49ers offense.

One example that comes to mind is in 11 personnel. The 49ers will be able to deploy an 11 personnel package where Jalen Hurd is one of the three receivers, but he lines up as a tight end and gives it more of a 12 look (one running back, two tight ends) with two receivers.

RELATED

49ers roster battle: Who backs up TE George Kittle?

The next play could feature the same group with Hurd lining up as a running back and the running back splitting out wide to give a more traditional 11 look with a wide receiver in the backfield. They could even empty the backfield and essentially turn that package into a five wide receiver set.

It’s a fascinating concept that could turn the 49ers’ offense into a tornado of varying personnel packages that tears up every offensive norm or tendency defensive coaches rely on.

A few obstacles stand in the way of this offensive revolution. Health is an obvious one, with quarterback Jimmy Garoppolo and McKinnon both missing most of all of last season with torn ACLs. Several members of the receiving corps dealt with injuries last season too, including Dante Pettis, who’s expected to be a key part of the passing attack. Any limitations from a roster standpoint could handcuff the coaching staff in terms of utilizing the various skill sets of their offensive weapons.

RELATED

Tarvarius Moore gets snaps at natural free safety position

Another big one is the development of rookies Samuel and Hurd. Their quick learning would be immensely helpful for San Francisco as they try and expand the playbook for players at different spots. It’d be a significant blow to the advancement of Shanahan’s offense if Samuel can only handle one receiver job, or Hurd doesn’t catch on quick enough to play a couple of different positions.

Shanahan’s innovative thinking on offense helped spawn head coaches like the Rams’ Sean McVay and the Packers’ Matt LaFleur. It doesn’t look like the coach is settling with a very good scheme. The 49ers are continuing to adapt to the ever-changing NFL, and if things go right, San Francisco will be several steps ahead of everyone else.

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14 minutes ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

Kyle Shanahan on the cutting edge with 'positionless' offense

cWt5y9KK.jpg

The 49ers offense could have a much different look in 2019, and it’s not just because they’re getting injured players back. It appears head coach Kyle Shanahan is constructing an offense that pushes the typical boundaries of the way teams think about that side of the ball.

49ers running back Tevin Coleman, who spent his first two NFL seasons in Atlanta where Shanahan was the offensive coordinator, told reporters that he’s noticed a difference in the coach’s scheme since he last played in the offense in 2016 with the Atlanta Falcons.

“He’s definitely more creative than he was in Atlanta, everything he’s doing with the backs, tight ends and receivers,” Coleman said according to Cam Inman of the Mercury News.

RELATED

Candlestick Chronicles: Changes come for 49ers in OTAs

The running back went on to say he’s lining up more as a receiver than he ever did during Shanahan’s tenure with the Falcons. That’s an interesting note when considering the type of players the 49ers have been stockpiling over the last two seasons.

Let’s consider the 2018 49ers for a moment. The fully healthy version of that offense featured versatile running backs Jerick McKinnon and Matt Breida. In the backfield with them was Swiss army knife fullback Kyle Juszczyk who can line up anywhere on the field. It also had an extremely athletic tight end, George Kittle. Those four alone all had the ability to stretch their on-field responsibilities outside of those typical for their positions.

The receiving corps lacked in that area, and Shanahan made it a point this offseason to change that. He even told reporters at the owners meetings that versatility from his receivers would be something he wanted to fix over the offseason. He wanted more pass catchers who could line up in different areas and take on different responsibilities in the offense.

RELATED

49ers rookie punter Mitch Wishnowsky impressing early

That trend toward more interchangeable pieces started in free agency when the team added Coleman to their already crowded backfield. Then they signed wide receiver Jordan Matthews to a one-year deal. Matthews can play any of the receiver spots in the 49ers offense.

Shanahan’s mission of offensive versatility continued in the draft when they used their second- and third-round picks on wide receivers Deebo Samuel and Jalen Hurd. Samuel is capable of the same versatility as Matthews, while Samuel is a converted running back who played a do-everything role during his final year at Baylor.

Prioritizing a receiver in the second round wasn’t a huge surprise, but the Hurd selection in the third is a massive indicator of what San Francisco’s head coach has planned for his offensive attack.

RELATED

Pro Football Focus: 49ers have NFL's most improved defensive line

Positionless” is the phrase du jour for describing what the 49ers are building on offense. They’re stocking up on players who allow them to vary their play calls and formations without ever changing the personnel. That layer of unpredictability is potentially deadly in a league where opposing coaches feast on tendencies.

Shanahan was already on the forefront of this concept last season. San Francisco ran 11 personnel (one running back, one tight end) with three receivers only 39 percent of the time last season, according to Sharp Football Stats. The next-lowest in the league was New Orleans at 53 percent. The NFL as a whole used 11 personnel a whopping 66 percent of the time, and passed out of that formation at the same rate. San Francisco passed out of 11 personnel 83 percent of the time. It’s the most predictable of the common personnel groupings, and the 49ers utilized it far less than the rest of the league.

RELATED

49ers cut ties with former 1st-round pick Anthony Davis

Where Shanahan varies greatly from the rest of the league is in the use of 21 personnel (two running backs, one tight end) with two receivers. NFL teams on average use 21 personnel just 8 percent of the time. San Francisco utilized 42 percent of their offensive snaps in 2018. By comparison, New England runs it 28 percent of the time; no other team eclipsed 15 percent, and the Rams didn’t use it once. While the league had a 40-60 pass-to-run ratio out of 21 personnel, the 49ers were at 46-54.

Keeping defenses off balance through personnel groupings will be a hallmark of the 2019 iteration of the 49ers offense.

One example that comes to mind is in 11 personnel. The 49ers will be able to deploy an 11 personnel package where Jalen Hurd is one of the three receivers, but he lines up as a tight end and gives it more of a 12 look (one running back, two tight ends) with two receivers.

RELATED

49ers roster battle: Who backs up TE George Kittle?

The next play could feature the same group with Hurd lining up as a running back and the running back splitting out wide to give a more traditional 11 look with a wide receiver in the backfield. They could even empty the backfield and essentially turn that package into a five wide receiver set.

It’s a fascinating concept that could turn the 49ers’ offense into a tornado of varying personnel packages that tears up every offensive norm or tendency defensive coaches rely on.

A few obstacles stand in the way of this offensive revolution. Health is an obvious one, with quarterback Jimmy Garoppolo and McKinnon both missing most of all of last season with torn ACLs. Several members of the receiving corps dealt with injuries last season too, including Dante Pettis, who’s expected to be a key part of the passing attack. Any limitations from a roster standpoint could handcuff the coaching staff in terms of utilizing the various skill sets of their offensive weapons.

RELATED

Tarvarius Moore gets snaps at natural free safety position

Another big one is the development of rookies Samuel and Hurd. Their quick learning would be immensely helpful for San Francisco as they try and expand the playbook for players at different spots. It’d be a significant blow to the advancement of Shanahan’s offense if Samuel can only handle one receiver job, or Hurd doesn’t catch on quick enough to play a couple of different positions.

Shanahan’s innovative thinking on offense helped spawn head coaches like the Rams’ Sean McVay and the Packers’ Matt LaFleur. It doesn’t look like the coach is settling with a very good scheme. The 49ers are continuing to adapt to the ever-changing NFL, and if things go right, San Francisco will be several steps ahead of everyone else.

Im looking for more depth than the article provides. Im trying to answer questions like : What alignments are they using to take advantage of the of these skill players? What extra things are they having backs and tightends do that they have not done before ?  This article is mostly buzz words. No clue why Sherman is on the cover of it also

Edited by SPITFIRE

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19 minutes ago, SPITFIRE said:

Im looking for more depth than the article provides. Im trying to answer questions like : What alignments are they using to take advantage of the of these skill players? What extra things are they having backs and tightends do that they have not done before ?  This article is mostly buzz words. No clue why Sherman is on the cover of it also

The idea is havi g interchangeable parts at RB/WR & even TE so you can call any play in the play bloom without switching out personnel which often tips your hand on a playcall.  
 

The idea is to keep the defense honest. If you force a defense to play honest the advantage goes to the offense every single time.  That’s why Kyle puts his QB under center and runs and passes equally out of heavy sets and smaller sets.  They run more 13 & 21 personnel than anyone else by a long shot.  That’s all designed to keep the possibility of a run open on every play

NFL average for 21 personnel is 8%.  49ers are at 42%

 

”One example that comes to mind is in 11 personnel. The 49ers will be able to deploy an 11 personnel package where Jalen Hurd is one of the three receivers, but he lines up as a tight end and gives it more of a 12 look (one running back, two tight ends) with two receivers.

The next play could feature the same group with Hurd lining up as a running back and the running back splitting out wide to give a more traditional 11 look with a wide receiver in the backfield. They could even empty the backfield and essentially turn that package into a five wide receiver set.

It’s a fascinating concept that could turn the 49ers’ offense into a tornado of varying personnel packages that tears up every offensive norm or tendency defensive coaches rely on.“

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On 9/27/2019 at 6:01 PM, FalconsIn2020 said:

The idea is havi g interchangeable parts at RB/WR & even TE so you can call any play in the play bloom without switching out personnel which often tips your hand on a playcall.  
 

The idea is to keep the defense honest. If you force a defense to play honest the advantage goes to the offense every single time.  That’s why Kyle puts his QB under center and runs and passes equally out of heavy sets and smaller sets.  They run more 13 & 21 personnel than anyone else by a long shot.  That’s all designed to keep the possibility of a run open on every play

NFL average for 21 personnel is 8%.  49ers are at 42%

 

”One example that comes to mind is in 11 personnel. The 49ers will be able to deploy an 11 personnel package where Jalen Hurd is one of the three receivers, but he lines up as a tight end and gives it more of a 12 look (one running back, two tight ends) with two receivers.

The next play could feature the same group with Hurd lining up as a running back and the running back splitting out wide to give a more traditional 11 look with a wide receiver in the backfield. They could even empty the backfield and essentially turn that package into a five wide receiver set.

It’s a fascinating concept that could turn the 49ers’ offense into a tornado of varying personnel packages that tears up every offensive norm or tendency defensive coaches rely on.“

They describe this as cutting edge but the Patriots have been doing this for years — really starting in earnest when they let Randy Moss go and focused the offfense on Gronk and Hernandez.

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15 minutes ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

They describe this as cutting edge but the Patriots have been doing this for years — really starting in earnest when they let Randy Moss go and focused the offfense on Gronk and Hernandez.

Yep.  You can tell because those two are outliers when you look at personal groupings.  They use twice as much 13 & 21 personell as anyone else.

Their positionless offense is how they scored 28 points in the 2nd half against us.  Their RB’s out of the slot or out wide had no counter by Quinn.  I forget how many catches white had in the Super Bowl, but he should’ve been the MVP

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Saban should have learned by now after Manziel and Watson lit up his defenses by just taking off and running the ball.  One of the key plays that beat Bama:

In the play below,  LSU is showing a empty backfield with a 3 x 2 set.   Saban is running what looks like a palm coverage in a pattern mix defense that will end up being man.  The safety is pulled over to the top of the triples which is exactly why LSU uses the set.  They have Bama set up now for Burrow to take off into the natural running lanes that are created here.

@PeytonMannings Forehead @Ergo Proxy @vel @Vandy  @ya_boi_j and anybody I missed.  WHAT is the coverage here?  I took a guess at palms coverage.  What I do know is that LSU purposely went empty set to spread Saban out so that Burrow could run this draw.  They are using tendacies against Saban.  The coverage went exactly as the formation dictated.

Animated GIF

 

Joe-Burrow-Highlights-vs-Alabama-NCAA-5-31-screenshot

 

Edited by Spts1

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2 minutes ago, Spts1 said:

Saban should have learned by now after Manziel and Watson lit up his defenses by just taking off and running the ball.  One of the key plays that beat Bama:

In the play below,  LSU is showing a empty backfield with a 3 x 2 set.   Saban is running a what looks like a palm coverage in a pattern mix defense that will end up being man.  The safety is pulled over to the top of the triples which is exactly why LSU uses the set.  They have Bama set up now for Burrow to take off into the natural running lanes that are created here.

@PeytonMannings Forehead @Ergo Proxy @vel @Vandy  @ya_boi_j and anybody I missed.  WHAT is the coverage here?  I took a guess at palms coverage.  What I do know is that LSU purposely went empty set to spread Saban out so that Burrow could run this draw.  They are going using tendacies against Saban...

Animated GIF

 

Joe-Burrow-Highlights-vs-Alabama-NCAA-5-31-screenshot

 

It’s not Palms because neither outside corner is looking to jump the #2 receiver. If it were Palms you would have seen the corner at the bottom of the screen jump the flat route.

Its man coverage and it looks like he’s running their cone bracket with the safety’s. It’d take some looking but I think there’s a slide and some cut ups of the way they run it. It looks kinda like what they call cover-5 cougar.

Patriots do the same stuff — cone and Vice brackets they call it.

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6 minutes ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said:

It’s not Palms because neither outside corner is looking to jump the #2 receiver. If it were Palms you would have seen the corner at the bottom of the screen jump the flat route.

Its man coverage and it looks like he’s running their cone bracket with the safety’s. It’d take some looking but I think there’s a slide and some cut ups of the way they run it. It looks kinda like what they call cover-5 cougar.

Patriots do the same stuff — cone and Vice brackets they call it.

Thats what I thought but gave Saban the benefit of the doubt because he is playing off. I figured it was man but went away from that.  Thats actually THE worst thing he could have done and he did exactly that.  Your Palms break down is excellent.

Here is a example of it below.  I will wait on your further breakdown of the play.  Thanks...

https://icoachtowin.com/2-read-coverage/

2-Read Coverage.001

Edited by Spts1

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1 hour ago, Spts1 said:

Saban should have learned by now after Manziel and Watson lit up his defenses by just taking off and running the ball.  One of the key plays that beat Bama:

In the play below,  LSU is showing a empty backfield with a 3 x 2 set.   Saban is running what looks like a palm coverage in a pattern mix defense that will end up being man.  The safety is pulled over to the top of the triples which is exactly why LSU uses the set.  They have Bama set up now for Burrow to take off into the natural running lanes that are created here.

@PeytonMannings Forehead @Ergo Proxy @vel @Vandy  @ya_boi_j and anybody I missed.  WHAT is the coverage here?  I took a guess at palms coverage.  What I do know is that LSU purposely went empty set to spread Saban out so that Burrow could run this draw.  They are using tendacies against Saban.  The coverage went exactly as the formation dictated.

Animated GIF

 

Joe-Burrow-Highlights-vs-Alabama-NCAA-5-31-screenshot

 

7 stubbie Mod. Cover 7 stubbie coverage to the 3 WR side and it looks like MOD to the bottom 

Check out https://rileykolstefootball.com/2018/04/15/nick-sabans-alabama-pass-coverages/ 

Edited by SPITFIRE
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