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Dirk Koetter vs Kyle Shanahan? Who do you like more?


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17 minutes ago, Godzilla1985 said:

7th best offense in league history was under Shanny. I’m excited about Koetter but I wished we could have kept Shannahan.

My choice too, OP, but no way we were going to keep KS.  He was offered an HC job, and he took it.  I wish we could have kept him too, but would it have been wise to do what Tampa Bay did?  I don't think so.  

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I mean, this really isn’t even a fair fight.  Koetter is a B+ OC.  A seasoned veteran.  He can call a good enough game for us to win Super Bowl’s.

 

Shannahan is an innovator.  Constantly trying to push the bounds of what NFL offenses can do. People will say he sucks in SF, but every OC needs a top 15 QB to look good.  With Jimmy G, Shanny was great.  And watch out for this year.  Coleman sees the growth Shanny has made:

 

Kyle Shanahan on the cutting edge with 'positionless' offense

The 49ers offense could have a much different look in 2019, and it’s not just because they’re getting injured players back. It appears head coach Kyle Shanahan is constructing an offense that pushes the typical boundaries of the way teams think about that side of the ball.

49ers running back Tevin Coleman, who spent his first two NFL seasons in Atlanta where Shanahan was the offensive coordinator, told reporters that he’s noticed a difference in the coach’s scheme since he last played in the offense in 2016 with the Atlanta Falcons.

“He’s definitely more creative than he was in Atlanta, everything he’s doing with the backs, tight ends and receivers,” Coleman said according to Cam Inman of the Mercury News.

 

The running back went on to say he’s lining up more as a receiver than he ever did during Shanahan’s tenure with the Falcons. That’s an interesting note when considering the type of players the 49ers have been stockpiling over the last two seasons.

Let’s consider the 2018 49ers for a moment. The fully healthy version of that offense featured versatile running backs Jerick McKinnon and Matt Breida. In the backfield with them was Swiss army knife fullback Kyle Juszczyk who can line up anywhere on the field. It also had an extremely athletic tight end, George Kittle. Those four alone all had the ability to stretch their on-field responsibilities outside of those typical for their positions.

The receiving corps lacked in that area, and Shanahan made it a point this offseason to change that. He even told reporters at the owners meetings that versatility from his receivers would be something he wanted to fix over the offseason. He wanted more pass catchers who could line up in different areas and take on different responsibilities in the offense.

That trend toward more interchangeable pieces started in free agency when the team added Coleman to their already crowded backfield. Then they signed wide receiver Jordan Matthews to a one-year deal. Matthews can play any of the receiver spots in the 49ers offense.

Shanahan’s mission of offensive versatility continued in the draft when they used their second- and third-round picks on wide receivers Deebo Samuel and Jalen Hurd. Samuel is capable of the same versatility as Matthews, while Samuel is a converted running back who played a do-everything role during his final year at Baylor.

Prioritizing a receiver in the second round wasn’t a huge surprise, but the Hurd selection in the third is a massive indicator of what San Francisco’s head coach has planned for his offensive attack.

“Positionless” is the phrase du jour for describing what the 49ers are building on offense. They’re stocking up on players who allow them to vary their play calls and formations without ever changing the personnel. That layer of unpredictability is potentially deadly in a league where opposing coaches feast on tendencies.

Shanahan was already on the forefront of this concept last season. San Francisco ran 11 personnel (one running back, one tight end) with three receivers only 39 percent of the time last season, according to Sharp Football Stats. The next-lowest in the league was New Orleans at 53 percent. The NFL as a whole used 11 personnel a whopping 66 percent of the time, and passed out of that formation at the same rate. San Francisco passed out of 11 personnel 83 percent of the time. It’s the most predictable of the common personnel groupings, and the 49ers utilized it far less than the rest of the league.

Where Shanahan varies greatly from the rest of the league is in the use of 21 personnel (two running backs, one tight end) with two receivers. NFL teams on average use 21 personnel just 8 percent of the time. San Francisco utilized 42 percent of their offensive snaps in 2018. By comparison, New England runs it 28 percent of the time; no other team eclipsed 15 percent, and the Rams didn’t use it once. While the league had a 40-60 pass-to-run ratio out of 21 personnel, the 49ers were at 46-54.

Keeping defenses off balance through personnel groupings will be a hallmark of the 2019 iteration of the 49ers offense.

One example that comes to mind is in 11 personnel. The 49ers will be able to deploy an 11 personnel package where Jalen Hurd is one of the three receivers, but he lines up as a tight end and gives it more of a 12 look (one running back, two tight ends) with two receivers.

 

The next play could feature the same group with Hurd lining up as a running back and the running back splitting out wide to give a more traditional 11 look with a wide receiver in the backfield. They could even empty the backfield and essentially turn that package into a five wide receiver set.

It’s a fascinating concept that could turn the 49ers’ offense into a tornado of varying personnel packages that tears up every offensive norm or tendency defensive coaches rely on.

A few obstacles stand in the way of this offensive revolution. Health is an obvious one, with quarterback Jimmy Garoppolo and McKinnon both missing most of all of last season with torn ACLs. Several members of the receiving corps dealt with injuries last season too, including Dante Pettis, who’s expected to be a key part of the passing attack. Any limitations from a roster standpoint could handcuff the coaching staff in terms of utilizing the various skill sets of their offensive weapons.

 

Another big one is the development of rookies Samuel and Hurd. Their quick learning would be immensely helpful for San Francisco as they try and expand the playbook for players at different spots. It’d be a significant blow to the advancement of Shanahan’s offense if Samuel can only handle one receiver job, or Hurd doesn’t catch on quick enough to play a couple of different positions.

Shanahan’s innovative thinking on offense helped spawn head coaches like the Rams’ Sean McVay and the Packers’ Matt LaFleur. It doesn’t look like the coach is settling with a very good scheme. The 49ers are continuing to adapt to the ever-changing NFL, and if things go right, San Francisco will be several steps ahead of everyone else.

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4 minutes ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

I mean, this really isn’t even a fair fight.  Koetter is a B+ OC.  A seasoned veteran.  He can call a good enough game for us to win Super Bowl’s.

 

Shannahan is an innovator.  Constantly trying to push the bounds of what NFL offenses can do. People will say he sucks in SF, but every OC needs a top 15 QB to look good.  With Jimmy G, Shanny was great.  And watch out for this year.  Coleman sees the growth Shanny has made:

 

Kyle Shanahan on the cutting edge with 'positionless' offense

The 49ers offense could have a much different look in 2019, and it’s not just because they’re getting injured players back. It appears head coach Kyle Shanahan is constructing an offense that pushes the typical boundaries of the way teams think about that side of the ball.

49ers running back Tevin Coleman, who spent his first two NFL seasons in Atlanta where Shanahan was the offensive coordinator, told reporters that he’s noticed a difference in the coach’s scheme since he last played in the offense in 2016 with the Atlanta Falcons.

“He’s definitely more creative than he was in Atlanta, everything he’s doing with the backs, tight ends and receivers,” Coleman said according to Cam Inman of the Mercury News.

 

The running back went on to say he’s lining up more as a receiver than he ever did during Shanahan’s tenure with the Falcons. That’s an interesting note when considering the type of players the 49ers have been stockpiling over the last two seasons.

Let’s consider the 2018 49ers for a moment. The fully healthy version of that offense featured versatile running backs Jerick McKinnon and Matt Breida. In the backfield with them was Swiss army knife fullback Kyle Juszczyk who can line up anywhere on the field. It also had an extremely athletic tight end, George Kittle. Those four alone all had the ability to stretch their on-field responsibilities outside of those typical for their positions.

The receiving corps lacked in that area, and Shanahan made it a point this offseason to change that. He even told reporters at the owners meetings that versatility from his receivers would be something he wanted to fix over the offseason. He wanted more pass catchers who could line up in different areas and take on different responsibilities in the offense.

That trend toward more interchangeable pieces started in free agency when the team added Coleman to their already crowded backfield. Then they signed wide receiver Jordan Matthews to a one-year deal. Matthews can play any of the receiver spots in the 49ers offense.

Shanahan’s mission of offensive versatility continued in the draft when they used their second- and third-round picks on wide receivers Deebo Samuel and Jalen Hurd. Samuel is capable of the same versatility as Matthews, while Samuel is a converted running back who played a do-everything role during his final year at Baylor.

Prioritizing a receiver in the second round wasn’t a huge surprise, but the Hurd selection in the third is a massive indicator of what San Francisco’s head coach has planned for his offensive attack.

“Positionless” is the phrase du jour for describing what the 49ers are building on offense. They’re stocking up on players who allow them to vary their play calls and formations without ever changing the personnel. That layer of unpredictability is potentially deadly in a league where opposing coaches feast on tendencies.

Shanahan was already on the forefront of this concept last season. San Francisco ran 11 personnel (one running back, one tight end) with three receivers only 39 percent of the time last season, according to Sharp Football Stats. The next-lowest in the league was New Orleans at 53 percent. The NFL as a whole used 11 personnel a whopping 66 percent of the time, and passed out of that formation at the same rate. San Francisco passed out of 11 personnel 83 percent of the time. It’s the most predictable of the common personnel groupings, and the 49ers utilized it far less than the rest of the league.

Where Shanahan varies greatly from the rest of the league is in the use of 21 personnel (two running backs, one tight end) with two receivers. NFL teams on average use 21 personnel just 8 percent of the time. San Francisco utilized 42 percent of their offensive snaps in 2018. By comparison, New England runs it 28 percent of the time; no other team eclipsed 15 percent, and the Rams didn’t use it once. While the league had a 40-60 pass-to-run ratio out of 21 personnel, the 49ers were at 46-54.

Keeping defenses off balance through personnel groupings will be a hallmark of the 2019 iteration of the 49ers offense.

One example that comes to mind is in 11 personnel. The 49ers will be able to deploy an 11 personnel package where Jalen Hurd is one of the three receivers, but he lines up as a tight end and gives it more of a 12 look (one running back, two tight ends) with two receivers.

 

The next play could feature the same group with Hurd lining up as a running back and the running back splitting out wide to give a more traditional 11 look with a wide receiver in the backfield. They could even empty the backfield and essentially turn that package into a five wide receiver set.

It’s a fascinating concept that could turn the 49ers’ offense into a tornado of varying personnel packages that tears up every offensive norm or tendency defensive coaches rely on.

A few obstacles stand in the way of this offensive revolution. Health is an obvious one, with quarterback Jimmy Garoppolo and McKinnon both missing most of all of last season with torn ACLs. Several members of the receiving corps dealt with injuries last season too, including Dante Pettis, who’s expected to be a key part of the passing attack. Any limitations from a roster standpoint could handcuff the coaching staff in terms of utilizing the various skill sets of their offensive weapons.

 

Another big one is the development of rookies Samuel and Hurd. Their quick learning would be immensely helpful for San Francisco as they try and expand the playbook for players at different spots. It’d be a significant blow to the advancement of Shanahan’s offense if Samuel can only handle one receiver job, or Hurd doesn’t catch on quick enough to play a couple of different positions.

Shanahan’s innovative thinking on offense helped spawn head coaches like the Rams’ Sean McVay and the Packers’ Matt LaFleur. It doesn’t look like the coach is settling with a very good scheme. The 49ers are continuing to adapt to the ever-changing NFL, and if things go right, San Francisco will be several steps ahead of everyone else.

Dirk should have a better running game this time around. It will be interesting to see how he does with all these potential weapons in the running game.

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I can move on but it is hard to forget KS literally caused us to lose the biggest game in the NFL because of ego. He is a whiz and we need to stop trying make our OC's be him like we did last year. But why did he put him over the organization? DK has too much experience to let his judgment be clouded when the stakes are that high but few can scheme like KS or have an exciting offense like KS.

 

 

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36 minutes ago, Godzilla1985 said:

7th best offense in league history was under Shanny. I’m excited about Koetter but I wished we could have kept Shannahan.

How many historic offenses Shanny had before and after 2016? Ryan threw 35 TD under Sark with rag tag OL. If the offense stays healthy, I could see Ryan throwing 40 TD. 

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12 minutes ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

I mean, this really isn’t even a fair fight.  Koetter is a B+ OC.  A seasoned veteran.  He can call a good enough game for us to win Super Bowl’s.

 

Shannahan is an innovator.  Constantly trying to push the bounds of what NFL offenses can do. People will say he sucks in SF, but every OC needs a top 15 QB to look good.  With Jimmy G, Shanny was great.  And watch out for this year.  Coleman sees the growth Shanny has made:

 

Kyle Shanahan on the cutting edge with 'positionless' offense

The 49ers offense could have a much different look in 2019, and it’s not just because they’re getting injured players back. It appears head coach Kyle Shanahan is constructing an offense that pushes the typical boundaries of the way teams think about that side of the ball.

49ers running back Tevin Coleman, who spent his first two NFL seasons in Atlanta where Shanahan was the offensive coordinator, told reporters that he’s noticed a difference in the coach’s scheme since he last played in the offense in 2016 with the Atlanta Falcons.

“He’s definitely more creative than he was in Atlanta, everything he’s doing with the backs, tight ends and receivers,” Coleman said according to Cam Inman of the Mercury News.

 

The running back went on to say he’s lining up more as a receiver than he ever did during Shanahan’s tenure with the Falcons. That’s an interesting note when considering the type of players the 49ers have been stockpiling over the last two seasons.

Let’s consider the 2018 49ers for a moment. The fully healthy version of that offense featured versatile running backs Jerick McKinnon and Matt Breida. In the backfield with them was Swiss army knife fullback Kyle Juszczyk who can line up anywhere on the field. It also had an extremely athletic tight end, George Kittle. Those four alone all had the ability to stretch their on-field responsibilities outside of those typical for their positions.

The receiving corps lacked in that area, and Shanahan made it a point this offseason to change that. He even told reporters at the owners meetings that versatility from his receivers would be something he wanted to fix over the offseason. He wanted more pass catchers who could line up in different areas and take on different responsibilities in the offense.

That trend toward more interchangeable pieces started in free agency when the team added Coleman to their already crowded backfield. Then they signed wide receiver Jordan Matthews to a one-year deal. Matthews can play any of the receiver spots in the 49ers offense.

Shanahan’s mission of offensive versatility continued in the draft when they used their second- and third-round picks on wide receivers Deebo Samuel and Jalen Hurd. Samuel is capable of the same versatility as Matthews, while Samuel is a converted running back who played a do-everything role during his final year at Baylor.

Prioritizing a receiver in the second round wasn’t a huge surprise, but the Hurd selection in the third is a massive indicator of what San Francisco’s head coach has planned for his offensive attack.

“Positionless” is the phrase du jour for describing what the 49ers are building on offense. They’re stocking up on players who allow them to vary their play calls and formations without ever changing the personnel. That layer of unpredictability is potentially deadly in a league where opposing coaches feast on tendencies.

Shanahan was already on the forefront of this concept last season. San Francisco ran 11 personnel (one running back, one tight end) with three receivers only 39 percent of the time last season, according to Sharp Football Stats. The next-lowest in the league was New Orleans at 53 percent. The NFL as a whole used 11 personnel a whopping 66 percent of the time, and passed out of that formation at the same rate. San Francisco passed out of 11 personnel 83 percent of the time. It’s the most predictable of the common personnel groupings, and the 49ers utilized it far less than the rest of the league.

Where Shanahan varies greatly from the rest of the league is in the use of 21 personnel (two running backs, one tight end) with two receivers. NFL teams on average use 21 personnel just 8 percent of the time. San Francisco utilized 42 percent of their offensive snaps in 2018. By comparison, New England runs it 28 percent of the time; no other team eclipsed 15 percent, and the Rams didn’t use it once. While the league had a 40-60 pass-to-run ratio out of 21 personnel, the 49ers were at 46-54.

Keeping defenses off balance through personnel groupings will be a hallmark of the 2019 iteration of the 49ers offense.

One example that comes to mind is in 11 personnel. The 49ers will be able to deploy an 11 personnel package where Jalen Hurd is one of the three receivers, but he lines up as a tight end and gives it more of a 12 look (one running back, two tight ends) with two receivers.

 

The next play could feature the same group with Hurd lining up as a running back and the running back splitting out wide to give a more traditional 11 look with a wide receiver in the backfield. They could even empty the backfield and essentially turn that package into a five wide receiver set.

It’s a fascinating concept that could turn the 49ers’ offense into a tornado of varying personnel packages that tears up every offensive norm or tendency defensive coaches rely on.

A few obstacles stand in the way of this offensive revolution. Health is an obvious one, with quarterback Jimmy Garoppolo and McKinnon both missing most of all of last season with torn ACLs. Several members of the receiving corps dealt with injuries last season too, including Dante Pettis, who’s expected to be a key part of the passing attack. Any limitations from a roster standpoint could handcuff the coaching staff in terms of utilizing the various skill sets of their offensive weapons.

 

Another big one is the development of rookies Samuel and Hurd. Their quick learning would be immensely helpful for San Francisco as they try and expand the playbook for players at different spots. It’d be a significant blow to the advancement of Shanahan’s offense if Samuel can only handle one receiver job, or Hurd doesn’t catch on quick enough to play a couple of different positions.

Shanahan’s innovative thinking on offense helped spawn head coaches like the Rams’ Sean McVay and the Packers’ Matt LaFleur. It doesn’t look like the coach is settling with a very good scheme. The 49ers are continuing to adapt to the ever-changing NFL, and if things go right, San Francisco will be several steps ahead of everyone else.

Jimmy G was good for few meaningless games in 2017. This year will show what the Niners are in NFL on both offense and defense. 

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Shanny, Quinn and Piolitroff was a matchup made in football heaven. Like a hit of heroin to Falcons fans, though because it was so good we thought that we'd see it again *because. We might chase that feeling for another two decades before we come close to getting that high again. WIth that said, I appreciate Koetter's empowering MR2 to handle the offense (even though I understand why Shanahan was a control freak). Time for another hit.

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3 minutes ago, falcons007 said:

Lol. Very small sample size in meaningless games when the season was over and players fighting for jobs.Let’s see what Jimmy G is made of for full season.

It’s small.  But it’s all we have.  

I knew Jimmy G was good when SI did the article on the Patriots practices leading up to the Seahawks/Patriots Super Bowl.  Peter King said he was every bit as sharp as Brady and the offense didn’t miss a beat during his reps.

 

In 2017 he had 7 games, 2,200 yards, 12 TD’s and 5 INT’s with 67% completions and 8.3 APA.  I mean, that’s good stuff.  Should be an interesting year for the Niners

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21 minutes ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

It’s small.  But it’s all we have.  

I knew Jimmy G was good when SI did the article on the Patriots practices leading up to the Seahawks/Patriots Super Bowl.  Peter King said he was every bit as sharp as Brady and the offense didn’t miss a beat during his reps.

 

In 2017 he had 7 games, 2,200 yards, 12 TD’s and 5 INT’s with 67% completions and 8.3 APA.  I mean, that’s good stuff.  Should be an interesting year for the Niners

Many QBs played well for whole season not 5 games but fizzled next year. It’s too early to talk about Jimmy G. I remember Ryan was ranked 3rd best in 2011 season behind Brees and Josh Freeman after one good season. 

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9 minutes ago, Draftnut57 said:

All we had to do to win the SB was run the ball,, But we had a OC that thought he'd be different than Common sense !!  It was the worst call in Falcon history !! And you want him over Koetter??   :rant:

If that’s your argument then Quinn needs to be shown the door as well.  Like it or not, Quinn had the headset on and could have called timeout and overruled any single call late in that game.  Same for Carroll regarding Bevell’s call in SB 49

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