Spts1

Why I believe Koetter replaced Sarkisian ( Erhardt-Perkins system)

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1 hour ago, SkerFalcon8710 said:

One thing i will enjoy is dirks scripted plays to start a game, that man marched us down the field relentlessly in 2012 on opening drives 

It sets the tone when you are able to do that repeatedly. Really interesting to see how Koetter and Mularkey is handling the co-op. 

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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

@slickgadawg

Very nice write up and solid analysis.  You did some homework on this post.  These are my favorite kinds of threads cause the football junkies will matriculate here and we can all learn a bit

Below is how the line sliding looks. In this example, the will is in the box. The call is 72 pass protection.  The center slides from the 2 hole over to pick up the the tackle that the guard on the weakside left open so that he can slide over to pick up the will.  The second part is a hot read the quarterback is making.  The call was still 72 but he notices the will is " walking" ( not coming) but the mike or sam is coming on a blitz.  The qb checks to either " Rita " because he sees the mike and sam coming.  The number 2 receiver ( tight end) is running his normal out route.  The number one receiver ( normally the fullback who is not pictured here) is running his go route.  The halfback knows he is the HOT read.  The center slides over to pick up the mike AND sam. Yes, if they both are coming he has to try and chip both.  This makes the halfback hot read that much more important for the back to recognize.

2018-05-14_11-41-44-1.png?resize=800%2C397&ssl=1

 

Below is how F Left 73 Ghost Tosser and F Right 73 Ghost Tosser look.  This is the FOUNDATION concept.  They build plays off of this.  The number 1 receiver is the fullback who runs a go pattern.  The number 2 receiver is the tight end who runs a 8 yard out. 

Off of these two base plays, you can build other plays on top of it. 

 3 out slot HAT- 73 Ghost/Tosser.  Your 1 and 2 receiver are still doing their thing.  3 out means the back is going into a route.  I THINK slot means the halfback ends up basically as the slot receiver after going in motion. HAT means he is going in motion on the tight end side.  73 is the protection. Ghost means the defense is in cover 3 so he (QB) will FIRST work to the strong side 1 or 2 receiver.  Tosser means the defense is in cover 2 so he will FIRST work to the slanting x or z receivers.  Notice in the notes that it says the hot route is built in.  That means that since the halfback is flaring out with his diagonal route, he essentially is running a hot route. 

Spread Right 72 Ghost/Tosser.  This is a easy one.  Spread formation is the personnel grouping and formation.  Right means the halfback is flaring to the right side of the formation. 72 protection.  Ghost/Tosser still do their thing. QB reads Ghost or Tosser depending on the coverage. Again, he can change protection based on presnap reads.  

1 Near Open HAX 73 Ghost Tosser. Notice first that this is a two back set.  1 Near means the fullback is lined up on the 1 side of the formation behind the tackle.  Open means the running backs are on opposite sides of the formation because the halfback will be going in motion to the opposite side.  HAX means the motion is away from the strong side. 73 protection. Ghost/Tosser do their thing and the quarterback makes his presnap read according to coverage.

0 Near Slot HAT 72 Ghost/ Tosser.  0 Near means Fullback lines up on the right side behind the tackle. Slot means the halfback and fullback will end up on the same side of the formation.  HAT means the halfback will motion on the tight end side of the formation. 72 is the protection.  Ghost/ Tosser do their thing.  QB makes his Ghost/ Tosser read according to presnap read.

 

2018-05-14_11-27-10.png?resize=800%2C1063&ssl=1

Below is Alabama running the F Right 72 Ghost/Toss with a hot read by the back:

https://streamable.com/iaax4

Edited by slickgadawg

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Regardless of system Sark still sucked against good defenses. Much like Bobo at UGA he loaded points against bad teams because his talent was so much higher. 

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15 hours ago, NeonDeion said:

Regardless of system Sark still sucked against good defenses. Much like Bobo at UGA he loaded points against bad teams because his talent was so much higher. 

Falcons had one of the top offenses under Sark.  The defense is what the problem is with the Falcons...

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22 hours ago, FentayeJones said:

If I were to label the offense I would call it Matt Ryan's offense. It incoporates concepts that he likes from all of his previous coordinators - including Sark.

:tiphat:  Yep, this pretty much exactly.  The point of bringing back Koetter was that he already had a good working relationship with Ryan and was familiar with the things the Falcons have been doing since he'd faced us twice a year the last few years.  Everything is built around maximizing Ryan's remaining prime years which means working with things he is comfortable with and is good at.

I think we may be in for a truly hybrid offense that melds the best of all 3 styles of play!   Koetter was trying to do it in Tampa with some nice success but he didn't have the same level of depth and talent at the skill positions there to make it really hum the way it could.  

Consider this quote about his offense from an article in 2018:   "This isn’t your run-of-the-mill West Coast Offense with its propensity for short, quick passes. It isn’t a Coryell offense with a designated route tree and sometimes complicated play calls. No, Head Coach Dirk Koetter’s offense is built on its explosiveness. It relies on explosiveness. And with an offensive arsenal of receivers, it gets explosiveness."

https://www.buccaneers.com/news/delving-further-into-coach-koetter-s-offense-and-the-guys-that-really-make-it-ti

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Erhardt-Perkins is more about terminology than philosophy.  You can apply it to nearly anything.

Koetter picked up the terminology in 2012 from our then-existing offense under Mularkey (who ran an E-P).  But you'll notice, the offense looked vastly different under Koetter than Mularkey, in a lot of ways.  It will be the same here.  He's keeping the clunky terminology, there have been discussions about him and Mularkey "streamlining" it (which to me sounds like trying to get rid of some of the wordiness and working in more E-P concept based calls), but it will look like you're used to seeing Koetter's offenses look.  That's the play caller more than the playbook.  And I'm excited about it.

But don't expect us to go full-blown E-P offense next season, or even in the next few.  They're trying to keep what works in place as best they can, so Koetter is learning the new terminology and concepts and he'll work in what he likes to use from there.  As has been pointed out a billion times, they all run the same plays anyway.  They just call them different things.  The philosophy behind it is where the rubber meets the road, and Koetter is different from Shanahan (and better than Sarkisian).

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On 7/22/2019 at 3:20 PM, vel said:

I don't know. Part of me agrees, but part of me sees them looking to get back to being vastly explosive. I don't think that's scheme limited. A lot of that system has no basis for what Andy Reid does, for example. It's all new and adjusted for 2019 football. I see some of the same happening here, with concepts and plays that transcend scheme. There is no way you can have this many offensive coaches from this many different trees and try and label it one thing. 

I do believe based on multiple interviews in off season, the concepts and plays will be different than What Kyle did in 2016. Terminology can be same but feel of the game, concepts and play calling can be different.

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14 minutes ago, JDaveG said:

Erhardt-Perkins is more about terminology than philosophy.  You can apply it to nearly anything.

Koetter picked up the terminology in 2012 from our then-existing offense under Mularkey (who ran an E-P).  But you'll notice, the offense looked vastly different under Koetter than Mularkey, in a lot of ways.  It will be the same here.  He's keeping the clunky terminology, there have been discussions about him and Mularkey "streamlining" it (which to me sounds like trying to get rid of some of the wordiness and working in more E-P concept based calls), but it will look like you're used to seeing Koetter's offenses look.  That's the play caller more than the playbook.  And I'm excited about it.

But don't expect us to go full-blown E-P offense next season, or even in the next few.  They're trying to keep what works in place as best they can, so Koetter is learning the new terminology and concepts and he'll work in what he likes to use from there.  As has been pointed out a billion times, they all run the same plays anyway.  They just call them different things.  The philosophy behind it is where the rubber meets the road, and Koetter is different from Shanahan (and better than Sarkisian).

The EP system being more about terminology than philosophy is not a correct statement.  The system was originally implemented as a ball control running offense for use in New England's cold weather.  The originators of the system also base the scheme around a CORE group of plays.  The stripped down terminology is a part of that philosophy.

The reason i posted some plays is the fact that once you learn the core group of plays, you can implement a whole offense based on it.  For instance, I'm not 100 percent sure on some of the terminology meaning but I have a understanding of what the plays are about and I understand how you can build off these core plays and know when to make presnap reads and a basic understanding of line calls.  Now, I don't even have a playbook and I can grasp this.  Imagine how easy it is for the pros who actually study this with their playbooks.

Finally, its true, once you learn this system, you will know the other systems but you just have to translate the terminology from one system to the next.  I really like this system because of the CONCEPT based plays and the terminology that goes with it.

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Wonderful post. Very well researched. Steve Young always said that he thought learning and executing Bill Walsh's WCO scheme was more difficult than his time in law school. The amount of information you need to digest for the bar exam is mountainous, so that statement always rang true to me.

DQ loves to play fast, and physical. I'd rather our offense execute 100% perfect on half the plays, than being confused. Confusion leads to missed blocks, slower releases, route trees run incorrectly, and turnovers. 

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6 hours ago, slickgadawg said:

Falcons had one of the top offenses under Sark.  The defense is what the problem is with the Falcons...

That “top” offense scored 15 points against the Eagles :barf:

(and handed off to Terron Ward with the game on the line) 

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One thing to note was that Shanahans "long play calls" worked for the Falcons.  Especially with the shift-to-motion in the plays.  That is something that was slowly reduced with Sark, and now likely all together with Dirk coming in.  It was a tremendous advantage that put us in favorable matchups by moving receivers around.  

People talk about being unpredictable with the playcalls, but I feel like shortening up the playcalls is a direct correlation to predictability. 

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Have any of you guys ever thought opposing teams would try to gain insight on our offense from threads like these? :D

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13 hours ago, Phillup11 said:

One thing to note was that Shanahans "long play calls" worked for the Falcons.  Especially with the shift-to-motion in the plays.  That is something that was slowly reduced with Sark, and now likely all together with Dirk coming in.  It was a tremendous advantage that put us in favorable matchups by moving receivers around.  

 

 

This is true; however, you can skin a cat in several different ways. What you would see here is "packaged" shifts. Where, there would be one more added word to the play call to instruct a motion or shift. 

For Example: Instead of "F Left - 73 Ghost Tosser," You would add in-front or back the following:

Cadence Shift/Motion Language such as: "Yellow" - pre-cadence, "Red" - first call, "Grey" motion signal

Motion Shift package: "Arizona" - TE flip, "California" - Z/Y LOS shift, "Texas" Bunch overload XYZ

So a final play call would look like: "Red California, F-Left 73 Ghost Tosser."

What is often important to note is, The structure of a play-call is laid out in the same order. Meaning, every call would read out: (1) motion summary, (2) package, (3) Side, (4) Route Tree/Run Type, (5) blocking scheme. So, unless you're the QB (or a really savvy player), you are really only listening for a few parts of the call. The other mental work (i.e., if you run an option route and knowing where the coverage is and how the corner is playing you), is another story. But overall, these are schemes that, if it was your day job, most could mentally grasp. 

 

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1 hour ago, US-41 Falcon said:

 

This is true; however, you can skin a cat in several different ways. What you would see here is "packaged" shifts. Where, there would be one more added word to the play call to instruct a motion or shift. 

For Example: Instead of "F Left - 73 Ghost Tosser," You would add in-front or back the following:

Cadence Shift/Motion Language such as: "Yellow" - pre-cadence, "Red" - first call, "Grey" motion signal

Motion Shift package: "Arizona" - TE flip, "California" - Z/Y LOS shift, "Texas" Bunch overload XYZ

So a final play call would look like: "Red California, F-Left 73 Ghost Tosser."

What is often important to note is, The structure of a play-call is laid out in the same order. Meaning, every call would read out: (1) motion summary, (2) package, (3) Side, (4) Route Tree/Run Type, (5) blocking scheme. So, unless you're the QB (or a really savvy player), you are really only listening for a few parts of the call. The other mental work (i.e., if you run an option route and knowing where the coverage is and how the corner is playing you), is another story. But overall, these are schemes that, if it was your day job, most could mentally grasp. 

 

EXACTLY!   You hit on my point.  This EP system is a system that most anyone should be able to grasp.  Heck, I understand the outline of the system like I said earlier and don't even have teaching in it or a playbook.  In your post above, you gave a example of " Red " as the first call.  Explain that.

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3 hours ago, slickgadawg said:

EXACTLY!   You hit on my point.  This EP system is a system that most anyone should be able to grasp.  Heck, I understand the outline of the system like I said earlier and don't even have teaching in it or a playbook.  In your post above, you gave a example of " Red " as the first call.  Explain that.

So the aforementioned "Red" refers to when the shift would occur. Shifts occur at different times when the team walks up to the LOS. For example, If the play call was indeed, "Red California, F-Left 73 Ghost Tosser," The motion would happen after the first cadence shout by the QB. In the above example, if it was "Grey Texas," the offense would come to the line in the original formation, and would shift into the XYZ bunch on one side of the field on a signal from the QB, that could happen at any point in the cadence. 

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4 minutes ago, US-41 Falcon said:

So the aforementioned "Red" refers to when the shift would occur. Shifts occur at different times when the team walks up to the LOS. For example, If the play call was indeed, "Red California, F-Left 73 Ghost Tosser," The motion would happen after the first cadence shout by the QB. In the above example, if it was "Grey Texas," the offense would come to the line in the original formation, and would shift into the XYZ bunch on one side of the field on a signal from the QB, that could happen at any point in the cadence. 

So, to play this out.  The quarterback call " Grey Texas, F-Left 73 Ghost Tosser.  They break the huddle and line up.  When the quarterback SAYS " Grey Texas ", THEN thats when they would shift?  

by the way, thanx for the response. I'm learning a whole lot by posting this thread...

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21 minutes ago, slickgadawg said:

So, to play this out.  The quarterback call " Grey Texas, F-Left 73 Ghost Tosser.  They break the huddle and line up.  When the quarterback SAYS " Grey Texas ", THEN thats when they would shift?  

by the way, thanx for the response. I'm learning a whole lot by posting this thread...

Happy to help. Actually, the entire play call: Grey Texas, F-Left 73 Ghost Tosser would be made in the huddle. The term "Grey" refers when the motion is set to occur once the team breaks the huddle. "Texas" refers to the end-state formation. 

For example: Matt Ryan gets in the huddle on 2nd and 3 from the New Orleans 44 and makes the aforementioned call. The team would break the huddle in the original formation, and because the motion trigger is "Grey," he would rise up from under center with a hand signal, to set the motion up. The the XYZ, Julio, Ridley, Sanu (assumed based on this package) would bunch to one side of the field. The Saints secondary will not get reset, and Ice throws one up over the top to a streaking Ridley. 42-7 Falcons. 

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6 minutes ago, US-41 Falcon said:

Happy to help. Actually, the entire play call: Grey Texas, F-Left 73 Ghost Tosser would be made in the huddle. The term "Grey" refers when the motion is set to occur once the team breaks the huddle. "Texas" refers to the end-state formation. 

For example: Matt Ryan gets in the huddle on 2nd and 3 from the New Orleans 44 and makes the aforementioned call. The team would break the huddle in the original formation, and because the motion trigger is "Grey," he would rise up from under center with a hand signal, to set the motion up. The the XYZ, Julio, Ridley, Sanu (assumed based on this package) would bunch to one side of the field. The Saints secondary will not get reset, and Ice throws one up over the top to a streaking Ridley. 42-7 Falcons. 

Ok.  Is the word " GREY"  SAID by Ryan seperate from a hand signal?  I'm clear now that Texas is the end result formation after the shift.

After I get Grey and the signal cleared up, my next question is this.  Lets stick with this same Ghost and Tosser route concepts.  If there is no shift for instance, the tight end and split receiver on his side will run a out and a go pattern. ( shown below labeled as the y and f receivers ) and the x and z receivers will run slants.  Ok, lets say you add the motion to it by adding the " Grey Texas " to the play call.  I'm assuming that from the formations below, one of the receivers will go in motion to set up the bunch formation and not make it a illegal formation. IF this is the case, that would shift the route structure for the whole play.  Can you clear that up based on the concepts below. ( a couple of the plays have motion by the half back built in).

grant_ghost-tosser_sy_576.0.jpg

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