Falcons Fan MVP

Do you think Dirk Koetter's play calling is outdated for today's NFL?

93 posts in this topic

8 hours ago, Kayoh said:

if you were to make a ranked list of every 16 game QB season in NFL history, sorted by ANY/A, 2016 Matt Ryan would rank 2nd behind 2004 Peyton Manning. 2018 Matt Ryan ranks 31st.

If you adjust for year, since 2018 had such a massive explosion of passing production/efficiency, 2016 Ryan ranks 4th behind 04 Manning, 84 Marino, and 07 Brady, and 2018 Ryan drops all the way down to 83rd.

He had a good season - a really good season, even. But it wasn't anywhere close to as good as his MVP season.

Kayoh do you like AY/A Value? I saw this on Twitter in late January and posted it, but you probably missed it at the time.

 

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25 minutes ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

Last years team.  Did we break 500 more than once.  NO or Wash game...not even sure about those

 Edit: none

Lol exactly. That's the only point I'm making. Complaints about Koetter are kind of funny right now. That Bucs team was lighting teams up. No, they didn't have that great of a running game, but combine that with the constant switching of QBs and the face that they led the league in passing yards and had that many 500 yard days is impressive. No matter how you slice it. 

Can't blame DQ for part of the defensive woes when he hasn't been DC and not give Koetter some of the credit for the offense in Tampa as HC. (Not saying you, just in general).

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7 minutes ago, falcons007 said:

Stats with out personnel or lack of personnel don’t say much. It’s the same argument people use to defend Shanny,s mediocre years for most of his career.  If John fox had kept his ego in check against a David Gerald, Jax would have done much better 2008-2010. That is what got John Fox fired. 

He had the personnel in Tampa Bay.

Freeman, Fitz 

Martin, Sims, Barber, Quizz

Evans, Jackson, Humphries, Godwin

Howard, Brate, Stocker, 

The OL is the wildcard.  They could clearly pass block.  But the scheme often leaves them out to dry.

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Just now, FalconsIn2020 said:

He had the personnel in Tampa Bay.

Freeman, Fitz 

Martin, Sims, Barber, Quizz

Evans, Jackson, Humphries, Godwin

Howard, Brate, Stocker, 

Evans and Howard are great. Rest isn’t anything to brag about. And Fitz lol. 

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@FalconsIn2020 and @vel, you guys discussion made me glance at our weekly offensive yardage totals from last year. We were 0-7 when we were under 400 yards, and 7-2 when we went over, with the two losses being those back-to-back killer ones against the saints and bengals.

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38 minutes ago, falcons007 said:

Evans and Howard are great. Rest isn’t anything to brag about. And Fitz lol. 

Bear in mind, I like Koetter for us.  Would have much preferred Rich Scangarello, but it wasn’t my decision and DK is capable.

So I’ll state it another way, since 2012 he has averaged 22 ppg with these weapons:

- Ryan, Freeman

- Turner, Martin, Quizz, Jackson, Barber

- Julio, Roddy, HD, Evans, Jackson, Godwin, Humphries, Hester

- Gonzalez, OJ Howard, Bate

- Snelling, DiMarco, Stocker

Thats likely 4 HOF’ers and 12 Pro Bowlers at just QB, RB & WR

 

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9 hours ago, Falcons Fan MVP said:

Do you guys think that Dirk Koetter's play calling is outdated for today's NFL? Some Falcons fans I've spoken to thinks that it is. Do you guys have any concerns about Dirk Koetter's play calling? Or do you think our talent should be enough to mask any weaknesses Dirk Koetter may have?

No,, and some people will say running the ball is out dated too.. But you know what,,? That's how we lost the last Superbowl we played in !!!  By not running the ball eough !!!!  :angry:

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39 minutes ago, vel said:

Lol exactly. That's the only point I'm making. Complaints about Koetter are kind of funny right now. That Bucs team was lighting teams up. No, they didn't have that great of a running game, but combine that with the constant switching of QBs and the face that they led the league in passing yards and had that many 500 yard days is impressive. No matter how you slice it. 

Can't blame DQ for part of the defensive woes when he hasn't been DC and not give Koetter some of the credit for the offense in Tampa as HC. (Not saying you, just in general).

Not going to argue too much on this cause Koetter should be enough for us.  

But the last season Koetter called plays was 2017 and they only broke 401 yards 5 times

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9 hours ago, Roanoke Falcon said:

Under Koetter, Matt Ryan was often called "a poor man's Eli Manning", and no one called him "elite" other than some on this board.

Under Shanahan he became a league MVP and was one running play from a Super Bowl MVP candidate.

Under Sark he put up better statistics than in his MVP season. But the overall offense suffered from Sark's uninspired play calling.

Not sure who called Ryan a poor man's Eli Manning, but that is grossly in error.  Eli has never been anything but a journeyman QB.  Ryan showed exceptional talent and maturity in his rookie season.

A QB needs an effective OL, running game, receiving corps, OC and game plan, and defense to be all he can be.  Ryan has had those things about half the time.  Make a list of the players from 2008 to 2018 and evaluate this for yourself.  Please do not include injured players who could not play or start in at least 12 games.  Remember, when any one of those facets of you game falters, the other team will recognize this and take advantage.  Last season every team wanted our defense on the field.  When our offense was on the field, they wanted us to try and run the ball.  We were the walking wounded in 2018.

Our record under Ryan:

Year Record Finish (Regular / Post Season) Coach
2018 7-9-0 2nd -- NFC South -- Dan Quinn Roster / Stats
2017 10-6-0 3rd -- NFC South 1-1 - Lost Divisional Playoffs Dan Quinn Roster / Stats
2016 11-5-0 1st -- NFC South 2-1 - Lost Superbowl Dan Quinn Roster / Stats
2015 8-8-0 2nd -- NFC South -- Dan Quinn Roster / Stats
2014 6-10-0 3rd -- NFC South -- Mike Smith Roster / Stats
2013 4-12-0 3rd -- NFC South -- Mike Smith Roster / Stats
2012 13-3-0 1st -- NFC South 1-1 - Lost Conference Championship Mike Smith Roster / Stats
2011 10-6-0 2nd -- NFC South 0-1 - Lost Wild Card Playoffs Mike Smith Roster / Stats
2010 13-3-0 1st -- NFC South 0-1 - Lost Divisional Playoffs Mike Smith Roster / Stats
2009 9-7-0 2nd -- NFC South -- Mike Smith Roster / Stats
2008 11-5-0 2nd -- NFC South 0-1 - Lost Wild Card Playoffs Mike Smith Roster / Stats

I count 102 wins and 74 losses.  I expect Eli Manning's record here would be closer to 74 wins and 102 losses.  But, that is JMHO.

If you do not believe our roster has been good about half the time, remember that a collapse anywhere will cause the other team to find ways to take advantage.  And, think about our roster.  Yes, we have had Roddy White, Julio Jones, Tony Gonzalez, Calvin Ridley, Devonte Freemen, Michael Turner, Tyson Clabo, Harvey Dahl, Alex Mack.  We have also had Mike Person, Michael Bolton, Keith Brooking, Chris Houston, Sam Baker, Thomas Decoud, Kroy Bierman, Joe Hawley, Wil Svitek, Sean Weatherspoon, Peter Konz, Peria Jerry, Akeem Dent, Steven Jackson, Lamar Holmes, Garrett Reynolds, Jeremy Trueblood, Joplo Bartu, James Stone, Mallacai Gioodman, and Vic Beasley.  These players were starters.

Question, was it Stone or Person who appeared to try to shove the football up his own *** during a game?

Ryan's OC have been as follows:

Mularkey - 4 seasons, and definitely a run oriented guy.

Koetter - 3 seasons and a more balanced offense.

Shannahan - 2 seasons with solid performance in the regular season and a baffling collapse in the SB.

Sarkesian - 1 season.  I suspect that Sark could do well in college again, but he was overwhelmed with the complexity and speed of the NFL.

Ryan's longest tenure with an OC was with a very good run game coach who was very reluctant to throw unless absolutely necessary and to make only very safe throws.  This is when Ryan got the reputation of a dink and dunk QB.  It was not Ryan, it was Mularkey.

Koetter was good, not great, not bad, but good enough and balanced.

Shannahan killed Ryan's performance during their first year.  His arrogance can only be described as my way or the highway.  Ryan learned Shannahans complex offensive playbook after one season, and had only one season left to perform with it.  He did very well.

Sark was Sark.  Is commentary necessary?

NFL football is very complex.  It is difficult to analyze and most NFL analyst put almost no effort into it like the analyst who described Matt Ryan as a "poor man's Eli Manning".  Archie was great.  Peyton was great.  Without them, would Eli have been drafted?

 

 

 

 

 

     
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
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10 hours ago, Falcons Fan MVP said:

Do you guys think that Dirk Koetter's play calling is outdated for today's NFL? Some Falcons fans I've spoken to thinks that it is. Do you guys have any concerns about Dirk Koetter's play calling? Or do you think our talent should be enough to mask any weaknesses Dirk Koetter may have?

Did these fans give you concrete examples of what they were talking about when they said his play calling is outdated?

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I'm not X and O smart enough to comment on the original question, but I think this year's Falcons have a lot more than just Dirk Koetter to work with.  There is a buttload of NFL experience on this coaching staff now, unlike recent seasons.  

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1 hour ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

Not going to argue too much on this cause Koetter should be enough for us.  

But the last season Koetter called plays was 2017 and they only broke 400 yards 6 times

Koetter called one game in 2018 and put up 500 yards. Sark did it once in 32 tries. With more talent. That 2017 Bucs offense was atrocious and showed massive improvement year over year. Again, something Sark didn't do from 17-18. 

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1 hour ago, Drew4719 said:

@FalconsIn2020 and @vel, you guys discussion made me glance at our weekly offensive yardage totals from last year. We were 0-7 when we were under 400 yards, and 7-2 when we went over, with the two losses being those back-to-back killer ones against the saints and bengals.

Yardage is a consistent indicator of play success. The more yardage accumulated usually should translate to points. 

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, falcons007 said:

Lol. You need to watch interviews. 

You need to 

The Falcons offense will remain … with a few tweaks”

https://www.atlantafalcons.com/news/what-to-expect-from-the-falcons-offense-with-dirk-koetter-running-the-show

 

So, what we’re doing right now is going through the current system, between Mike and myself we’re giving our thoughts and our ideas of what we’re seeing. Just 30 minutes ago I came out of a meeting and we’re in there going through that playbook and the tape line-by-line and play-by-play. And what you’re really doing is your ironing out what is going to be the Falcons offense moving forward. Because when the players get back, it’s the Falcons offense.”

 

If they were changing the offense, why would they be going through film of the entire old playbook and making minor changes? For a totally different offense? Doesn’t make a lick of sense 

Edited by droopy1592

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5 hours ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

Yeah..fewer yards on 100 more pass attempts is pretty significant.  If you add in those passes to make the comparison:

Ryan would have 6,700 passing yards and 48 TD’s in 2016

What? It was 74 fewer passing attempts in 2016 compared to 2018. 9.1 Y/A (2016) on 608 attempts (2018) = 5,654 yards. He also would've had 43 TD's in 2016 with the 2018 passing attempts.

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1 hour ago, falconidae said:

Did these fans give you concrete examples of what they were talking about when they said his play calling is outdated?

The average fan couldn't even draw a basic flood concept. 

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13 minutes ago, MilleniumFalcon said:

What? It was 74 fewer passing attempts in 2016 compared to 2018. 9.1 Y/A (2016) on 608 attempts (2018) = 5,654 yards. He also would've had 43 TD's in 2016 with the 2018 passing attempts.

I added a 1,000 for no apparent reason.  Yes, 5,650 yards or so.  Still an NFL record.  

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25 minutes ago, ButSkiuup said:

Dirk did good with Fitzpatrick

If Fitz could use his Ivy League brain and not get confused against zone, he would be a solid starter

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38 minutes ago, droopy1592 said:

You need to 

The Falcons offense will remain … with a few tweaks”

https://www.atlantafalcons.com/news/what-to-expect-from-the-falcons-offense-with-dirk-koetter-running-the-show

 

So, what we’re doing right now is going through the current system, between Mike and myself we’re giving our thoughts and our ideas of what we’re seeing. Just 30 minutes ago I came out of a meeting and we’re in there going through that playbook and the tape line-by-line and play-by-play. And what you’re really doing is your ironing out what is going to be the Falcons offense moving forward. Because when the players get back, it’s the Falcons offense.”

 

If they were changing the offense, why would they be going through film of the entire old playbook and making minor changes? For a totally different offense? Doesn’t make a lick of sense 

The offensive philosophy & terminology is remaining the same.  You could post Koetter Mic’d up video from mini camp and you can hear him spouting out the Falcons/Shanny playbook

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7 minutes ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

The offensive philosophy & terminology is remaining the same.  You could post Koetter Mic’d up video from mini camp and you can hear him spouting out the Falcons/Shanny playbook

Thank you. Glad some people are paying attention and not making things up. 

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I apologize for getting off topic.  Comparing Matt Ryan to Eli Manning got under my skin a bit.  I feel better now.  LoL.

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35 minutes ago, droopy1592 said:

You need to 

The Falcons offense will remain … with a few tweaks”

https://www.atlantafalcons.com/news/what-to-expect-from-the-falcons-offense-with-dirk-koetter-running-the-show

 

So, what we’re doing right now is going through the current system, between Mike and myself we’re giving our thoughts and our ideas of what we’re seeing. Just 30 minutes ago I came out of a meeting and we’re in there going through that playbook and the tape line-by-line and play-by-play. And what you’re really doing is your ironing out what is going to be the Falcons offense moving forward. Because when the players get back, it’s the Falcons offense.”

 

If they were changing the offense, why would they be going through film of the entire old playbook and making minor changes? For a totally different offense? Doesn’t make a lick of sense 

I think there's a vast excluded middle in the discussion.  It seems to center on people who think we're transitioning to a Coryell system (we aren't) and those who think we're using the exact same playbook Shanahan left behind (we aren't).

What's happening is the coaches are learning the terminology, and moving forward they will incorporate things they like to do into the offensive scheme, using the existing terminology.  They also said they would work to streamline some of the terminology, a move I welcome.  My guess is it will be along the lines of what Koetter did with Mularkey's system, using E-P terminology within the concept of the existing offense, something Shanahan conveniently already did.  

Shanahan's offense today doesn't look like his offense here, and the one here didn't resemble Washington, and none of them resemble Houston.  They are, at their base, all WCOs, but the application, play calling, formations, protections, etc. all change year-to-year.  So this won't be "Shanahan's offense."  It will be Koetter's offense.  But it will be based on the existing playbook, terminology and concepts, which Koetter will then use to attack defenses.

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17 minutes ago, NaGaBoy said:

I apologize for getting off topic.  Comparing Matt Ryan to Eli Manning got under my skin a bit.  I feel better now.  LoL.

As well it should

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18 minutes ago, JDaveG said:

I think there's a vast excluded middle in the discussion.  It seems to center on people who think we're transitioning to a Coryell system (we aren't) and those who think we're using the exact same playbook Shanahan left behind (we aren't).

What's happening is the coaches are learning the terminology, and moving forward they will incorporate things they like to do into the offensive scheme, using the existing terminology.  They also said they would work to streamline some of the terminology, a move I welcome.  My guess is it will be along the lines of what Koetter did with Mularkey's system, using E-P terminology within the concept of the existing offense, something Shanahan conveniently already did.  

Shanahan's offense today doesn't look like his offense here, and the one here didn't resemble Washington, and none of them resemble Houston.  They are, at their base, all WCOs, but the application, play calling, formations, protections, etc. all change year-to-year.  So this won't be "Shanahan's offense."  It will be Koetter's offense.  But it will be based on the existing playbook, terminology and concepts, which Koetter will then use to attack defenses.

Good perspective...

At this point I call it the Ryan offense.  It will entail all the parts of Shannanan’s Playbook that worked.  It will also include the parts Sark added that Ryan likes.  And the remaining 15-20% will be the things Koetter/Mularkey deep mesh seamlessly with the offense in place.  

Where Koetter & Shanny align is their ability to scheme explosive plays.  That’s what I’m most excited about.  Cause that’s very difficult part of playcalling.  Sure, Julio can beat the CB1.  But to scheme open less talented players is an art form

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