Falcons Fan MVP

Do you think Dirk Koetter's play calling is outdated for today's NFL?

93 posts in this topic

I could have sworn Koetter said they're running Shanahan's offense with some of his stuff mixed in.  Guess that's why Koetter and Mularkey were learning the Shanahan playbook since their arrival. 

I am excited about the fact the Koetter gave Ryan the ability to change plays at the line--especially since Ryan is more familiar with the playbook. 

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19 minutes ago, Da_Truth said:

I could have sworn Koetter said they're running Shanahan's offense with some of his stuff mixed in.  Guess that's why Koetter and Mularkey were learning the Shanahan playbook since their arrival. 

I am excited about the fact the Koetter gave Ryan the ability to change plays at the line--especially since Ryan is more familiar with the playbook. 

Yep. It’s still Shannys playbook, Sark and Kut are just making adjustments so they are more comfortable. They already said they are just slightly changing  the way receivers run routes (steps vs levels iirc) and more power and inside zone runs. As long as Koetter can see weaknesses and tendencies in a defense, we should have a top 5 nfl offense. I only worry about red zone and second half production. 

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14 minutes ago, droopy1592 said:

Yep. It’s still Shannys playbook, Sark and Kut are just making adjustments so they are more comfortable. They already said they are just slightly changing  the way receivers run routes (steps vs levels iirc) and more power and inside zone runs. As long as Koetter can see weaknesses and tendencies in a defense, we should have a top 5 nfl offense. I only worry about red zone and second half production. 

Exactly.  I remember watching an interview of Ryan and Shanahan and Matt saying he knew the call coming before Shanahan sent it in.  If Matt knows the playbook and situations to call the right play that well,  it should be better with Koetter giving Matt more leeway with playcalling.

I don't think Sark knew enough of the playbook for situational play calling or allowed Matt to call his own plays. 

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6 hours ago, Falcons Fan MVP said:

Do you guys think that Dirk Koetter's play calling is outdated for today's NFL? Some Falcons fans I've spoken to thinks that it is. Do you guys have any concerns about Dirk Koetter's play calling? Or do you think our talent should be enough to mask any weaknesses Dirk Koetter may have?

No. No. Talent is top notch and so is Koetter as an OC. 

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7 hours ago, Roanoke Falcon said:

Under Koetter, Matt Ryan was often called "a poor man's Eli Manning", and no one called him "elite" other than some on this board.

Under Shanahan he became a league MVP and was one running play from a Super Bowl MVP candidate.

Under Sark he put up better statistics than in his MVP season. But the overall offense suffered from Sark's uninspired play calling.

Matt Ryan was leading MVP candidate in 2012 till the 5 interception game against Cardinals. What is more impressive about Ryan under DK in 2013-2014, he had Trublood, Holmes and no name C and  OG playing on the the line. Ryan still put up great numbers with H.D, Drew Davis and Kevin Cone as his Receivers. 

Sark couldn’t do anything against teams with winning records with better talent at RB, WR and OL compared to 2013-2014.

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6 hours ago, Kayoh said:

the only thing that was comparable was if you just look at the # of TDs and yards at face value without taking anything else into account.

2016: 9.03 ANY/A

2017: 6.87 ANY/A
2018: 7.71 ANY/A

his 2018 was the 2nd best season of his career but to say it was comparable to his 2016 is just ignoring the fact that he put up his 2016 numbers (which were still slightly better than 2018) despite throwing the ball 74 fewer times. That's a huge difference.

Yeah..fewer yards on 100 more pass attempts is pretty significant.  If you add in those passes to make the comparison:

Ryan would have 6,700 passing yards and 48 TD’s in 2016

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6 hours ago, FalconFan13 said:

Im a bit confused on this as if im not mistaken TODD MONKEN ran an offense last year and had a better overall offense than we did here on a team with a much worse QB and much worse talent overall.   If anything to me that proves his offense worked very well in this day and age when it can finish in the top 3 with that  crop of talent they had him rolling out there.

Like literally if you go down the list matching every player we have at the skill position from top to bottom and even some of the O-line.  The Falcons have a better player at pretty much every position. 

Ryan >>>>> Winston this ones not even close
Freeman or Teco last year > Barber
Julio > Evans
Ridley > Humphries
Sanu > Jackson - This one and ridley vs humphries is close but our guys were better with more upside.
Hooper = Howard - This one was close as well and might go Howard but it's debatable.
Mack and Matthews are better than anything on their O-line.  Marpet i heard is pretty good though.

The fact they finished within .3 points of our avg per game and finished 3rd in total offense in the nfl yardage wise is a credit to what Dirk can actually do which is impressive to me.

 

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1 hour ago, droopy1592 said:

Yep. It’s still Shannys playbook, Sark and Kut are just making adjustments so they are more comfortable. They already said they are just slightly changing  the way receivers run routes (steps vs levels iirc) and more power and inside zone runs. As long as Koetter can see weaknesses and tendencies in a defense, we should have a top 5 nfl offense. I only worry about red zone and second half production. 

It’s going to be lot different than Shanahans play book. There are multiple reports on how WR, QB and others have to adjust with new concepts.  Air Corriel system is similar to shannys WCO but there would be changes.

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7 hours ago, FalconFan13 said:

Im a bit confused on this as if im not mistaken he ran an offense last year and had a better overall offense than we did here on a team with a much worse QB and much worse talent overall.   If anything to me that proves his offense worked very well in this day and age when it can finish in the top 3 with that  crop of talent they had him rolling out there.

Like literally if you go down the list matching every player we have at the skill position from top to bottom and even some of the O-line.  The Falcons have a better player at pretty much every position. 

Ryan >>>>> Winston this ones not even close
Freeman or Teco last year > Barber
Julio > Evans
Ridley > Humphries
Sanu > Jackson - This one and ridley vs humphries is close but our guys were better with more upside.
Hooper = Howard - This one was close as well and might go Howard but it's debatable.
Mack and Matthews are better than anything on their O-line.  Marpet i heard is pretty good though.

The fact they finished within .3 points of our avg per game and finished 3rd in total offense in the nfl yardage wise is a credit to what Dirk can actually do which is impressive to me.

To play devil’s advocate, Koetter did not call the offense last year.  Only one game and they moved the ball very well but scored 3 points.  Here are his numbers when calling plays.  Lots good, some bad.  I’m just glad his system is being left in Tampa.  Especially the redzone.  Him in our playbook could be quite interesting and very exciting.  Unlike Sark, Koetter understands how to create explosive plays 

 

line rankings are from Football Outsiders.

Jacksonville Jaguars 2007 

  • Red zone touchdown scoring: 57% conversion rate on 58 attempts. Ranked 8th
  • Red zone scoring attempts per game. 3.6 (rank 3rd)
  • Red zone touchdowns per game: 2.1 (rank 6th)
  • Offensive points per game: 23.8 (rank 5th)
  • Offensive line ranking: 18th run blocking. 17th pass protection.
  • Defense ranking: 15th

Jacksonville Jaguars 2008

  • Red zone touchdown scoring: 55% conversion rate on 45 attempts. Ranked 15th.
  • Red zone scoring attempts per game: 2.8 (rank 22nd)
  • Red zone touchdowns per game: 1.6 (ranked 20th)
  • Offensive points per game: 17.6 (rank 24th)
  • Offensive line ranking: 12 run blocking. 24th pass protection.
  • Defense ranking: 24th

Jacksonville Jaguars 2009

  • Red zone touchdown scoring: 51% conversion rate on 47 attempts. Ranked 16th.
  • Red zone scoring attempts per game: 2.9 (rank 20th)
  • Red zone touchdowns per game: 1.5 (rank 19th)
  • Offensive points per game: 18.2 (rank 22nd)
  • Offensive line ranking: 11th run blocking. 29th pass protection.
  • Defense ranking: 28th

Jacksonville Jaguars 2010

  • Red zone touchdown scoring: 63% conversion rate on 46 attempts. Ranked 3rd.
  • Red zone scoring attempts per game: 2.9 (rank 20th)
  • Red zone touchdowns per game: 1.8 (rank 13th)
  • Offensive points per game: 21.6 (rank 12th)
  • Offensive line ranking: 2nd run blocking. 24th pass protection.
  • Defense ranking: 32nd

Jacksonville Jaguars 2011

  • Red zone touchdown scoring: 48% conversion rate on 35 attempts. Ranked 21st.
  • Red zone scoring attempts per game: 2.2 (rank 30th)
  • Red zone touchdowns per game: 1.1 (rank 27th)
  • Offensive points per game: 13.5 (rank 29th)
  • Offensive line ranking: 13th run blocking. 26th pass protection.
  • Defense ranking: 5th

Atlanta Falcons 2012

  • Red zone touchdown scoring: 57% conversion rate on 63 attempts. Rank 10th.
  • Red zone scoring attempts per game: 3.8 (rank 4th)
  • Red zone touchdowns per game: 2.2 (rank 4th)
  • Offensive points per game: 25.6 (rank 4th)
  • Offensive line ranking: 24th run blocking. 8th pass protection.
  • Defense ranking: 12th

Atlanta Falcons 2013

  • Red zone touchdown scoring: 51% conversion rate on 52 attempts. Ranked 22nd.
  • Red zone scoring attempts per game: 3.2 (rank 14th)
  • Red zone touchdowns per game: 1.7 (rank 17th)
  • Offensive points per game: 20.7 (rank 19th)
  • Offensive line ranking: 24th run blocking. 7th pass protection.
  • Defense ranking: 29th

Atlanta Falcons 2014

  • Red zone touchdown scoring: 61% conversion on 44 attempts. Ranked 6th.
  • Red zone scoring attempts per game: 2.8 (rank 26th)
  • Red zone touchdowns per game: 1.7 (rank 16th)
  • Offensive points per game: 22.5 (rank 12th)
  • Offensive line ranking: 14th run blocking. 11th pass protection.
  • Defense ranking: 32nd

Tampa Bay Buccaneers 2015

  • Red zone touchdown scoring: 52% conversion rate on 51 attempts. Ranked 22nd.
  • Red zone scoring attempts per game: 3.2 (rank 13th)
  • Red zone touchdowns per game: 1.7 (rank 15th)
  • Offensive points per game: 20.3 (rank 19th)
  • Offensive line ranking: 9th run blocking. 14th pass protection.
  • Defense ranking: 18th

Tampa Bay Buccaneers 2016

  • Red zone touchdown scoring: 51% conversion rate on 54 attempts. Ranked 20th.
  • Red zone scoring attempts per game: 3.4 (rank 11th)
  • Red zone touchdowns per game: 1.8 (rank 16th)
  • Offensive points per game: 20.3 (rank 20th)
  • Offensive line ranking: 21st run blocking. 16th pass protection.
  • Defense ranking: 13th

Tampa Bay Buccaneers 2017

  • Red zone touchdown scoring: 49% conversion rate on 53 attempts. Ranked 24th.
  • Red zone scoring attempts per game: 3.3 (rank 8th)
  • Red zone touchdowns per game: 1.6 (rank 13th)
  • Offensive points per game: 19.6 (rank 19th)
  • Offensive line ranking: 16th run blocking. 16th pass protection.
  • Defense ranking: 32nd

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im a huge kotter fan and never thought he got enough credit. He had a team that was one yr away of wheels falling off. He had the 2012 team that was halfway in his prime and even then the o line couldnt run block 80 percent of the time, the one good thing is they could pass block. He had a good team that yr but I think, the talent around kyle in 2016 was better. the o line could run block in 2016 even though the pass blocking was some worse than 2012. kyle had better weapons overall than kotter. id take julio, sanu, gabriel over roddy, julio, and harry douglas and I love roddy but harry douglas was a waste of space. I def would take freeman and coleman over overweight turner and quizz, even though quizz is a much better pass blocker than freeman has ever been. Obviously on his own Tony G is a goat, but by 2012 he was not stretching the field, and as a group I prefer Jacob tamme, rookie hooper, and excellent blocking of Levine in 2016.

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38 minutes ago, falcons007 said:

It’s going to be lot different than Shanahans play book. There are multiple reports on how WR, QB and others have to adjust with new concepts.  Air Corriel system is similar to shannys WCO but there would be changes.

I just listed the changes. It’s not changing much. Even in the interview Kut said Ryan knew way more than him about the offense so Ryan is teaching him the nuance. It’s not changing other than the things I stated plus a few more wrinkles. It has been stated in interviews the offense wasn’t changing. 

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26 minutes ago, droopy1592 said:

I just listed the changes. It’s not changing much. Even in the interview Kut said Ryan knew way more than him about the offense so Ryan is teaching him the nuance. It’s not changing other than the things I stated plus a few more wrinkles. It has been stated in interviews the offense wasn’t changing. 

There were multiple interviews with Ryan, San, DK and Hooper all talking about changes. Sanu and Hooper talked about adjusting to new Step based route running and need to spend extra time with Ryan. If a WR is changing the way route is run, blocking etc. It is going to be a big change bigger than most realize. Sure, it won't be overhaul of KS play book but I expect DK to run what he thinks best. I wish Sark would have stood up and said, I will run what I am comfortable in a situation.

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25 minutes ago, Boise Falcon Fan said:

Dirk Koetter has forgotten more football than anyone on here knows.  He's an excellent coach, and this offense will flourish with him at the helm.

Falcons should have kept DK in 2015 if they didn't get KS to be the OC. DK has done more with less talent here in 2013-2014 and in Tampa.

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6 minutes ago, falcons007 said:

There were multiple interviews with Ryan, San, DK and Hooper all talking about changes. Sanu and Hooper talked about adjusting to new Step based route running and need to spend extra time with Ryan. If a WR is changing the way route is run, blocking etc. It is going to be a big change bigger than most realize. Sure, it won't be overhaul of KS play book but I expect DK to run what he thinks best. I wish Sark would have stood up and said, I will run what I am comfortable in a situation.

You literally just said exactly what I said.  That doesn’t change the rest of the offense. There are nuances, concepts, and rules in each offense than can be the same or different than an offense on the other side of the spectrum.  There are similar concepts within all offenses that alter the way receivers run routes or linemen block. That doesn’t mean we are changing the offense. The coaches have already stated that. You’re wrong, sorry. 

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Take this from a November 2018 article:

Quote

For the Bucs’ purposes, Coach Koetter has qualified ‘explosive’ plays as runs of 12 or more yards and passing plays of 16 or more yards. Since he took over the offense in 2015 (then the coordinator under Lovie Smith before he assumed the role of head coach), the Bucs have had 341 explosive passing plays, in particular, good for second-most in that time span behind just the New Orleans Saints. Really, the passing game lends itself to passing plays in the 15-19-yard range. The Bucs have had 205 such plays since 2015, good for most in the league.

This season, the Bucs have continued that trend and maybe even magnified it. They currently have the second-most ‘explosive’ passing plays with 62, behind only the McVay-ian offense of the Los Angeles Rams, who have 64, and well ahead of Boy Wonder Patrick Mahomes and the Kansas City Chiefs, who are pretty far behind with 53. If you want to differentiate SportsCenter-worthy highlight plays, say of 60 or more yards through the air, the Bucs have everyone beat in that category with four on the season.

https://www.buccaneers.com/news/delving-further-into-coach-koetter-s-offense-and-the-guys-that-really-make-it-ti

The Bucs have had a ton of offensive talent, in varying degrees, since 2015. I'd say the Falcons have had more on a consistent basis the last three years. Yet, it's the Bucs offense that has proven to be one of the consistently explosive groups in the league. This is with an OL that is average at best (No Matthews, no Mack, no Schraeder). Their best OL was Donovan Smith, a very mediocre LT, and Ali Marpet, who admittedly is a dog. Everyone else sucked. And it wasn't a bunch of screens. They push the ball and push the ball and push the ball. To the tune of leading the NFL in passing yards in 2018 using two different QBs.

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Here's a fun trivia question for this thread:

How many times did the Bucs put up 500 yards of offense in 2018? 

How many times did the Falcons put up 500 yards of offense in 2018? 

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1 minute ago, vel said:

Here's a fun trivia question for this thread:

How many times did the Bucs put up 500 yards of offense in 2018? 

How many times did the Falcons put up 500 yards of offense in 2018? 

A tad unfair.  First, we ran the football.  Second, we only threw 90 times in the 4th quarter that year cause we were up huge.

But I see your point.  

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3 minutes ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

A tad unfair.  First, we ran the football.  Second, we only threw 90 times in the 4th quarter that year cause we were up huge.

But I see your point.  

Nope. That's 2018 I'm talking about. Not 2016. Bucs went 5-11. We went 7-9. We played largely the same teams. 

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10 minutes ago, vel said:

Nope. That's 2018 I'm talking about. Not 2016. Bucs went 5-11. We went 7-9. We played largely the same teams. 

Last years team.  Did we break 500 more than once.  NO or Wash game...not even sure about those

 Edit: none

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8 hours ago, Roanoke Falcon said:

OK, not better. But comparable.

Matt Ryan's career stats

And last year he produced comparable stats to his MVP season without Freeman as a runner and receiving option, and with no defense to take some pressure off the offense.

My point being that as much as we legitimately griped about Sarkesian, he still got more out of Matt Ryan and the offense than Koetter ever did.

Do you actually think that it was because Sark got more out of Matt than Koetter or is it because Matt has gotten better individually as his career has progressed? Personally I think it's the latter. I think you are putting way too much emphasis on the OC being the catalyst for Matt's success, when I believe it's the opposite cause and effect.

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54 minutes ago, droopy1592 said:

You literally just said exactly what I said.  That doesn’t change the rest of the offense. There are nuances, concepts, and rules in each offense than can be the same or different than an offense on the other side of the spectrum.  There are similar concepts within all offenses that alter the way receivers run routes or linemen block. That doesn’t mean we are changing the offense. The coaches have already stated that. You’re wrong, sorry. 

Lol. You need to watch interviews. 

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2 hours ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

To play devil’s advocate, Koetter did not call the offense last year.  Only one game and they moved the ball very well but scored 3 points.  Here are his numbers when calling plays.  Lots good, some bad.  I’m just glad his system is being left in Tampa.  Especially the redzone.  Him in our playbook could be quite interesting and very exciting.  Unlike Sark, Koetter understands how to create explosive plays 

 

line rankings are from Football Outsiders.

Jacksonville Jaguars 2007 

  • Red zone touchdown scoring: 57% conversion rate on 58 attempts. Ranked 8th
  • Red zone scoring attempts per game. 3.6 (rank 3rd)
  • Red zone touchdowns per game: 2.1 (rank 6th)
  • Offensive points per game: 23.8 (rank 5th)
  • Offensive line ranking: 18th run blocking. 17th pass protection.
  • Defense ranking: 15th

Jacksonville Jaguars 2008

  • Red zone touchdown scoring: 55% conversion rate on 45 attempts. Ranked 15th.
  • Red zone scoring attempts per game: 2.8 (rank 22nd)
  • Red zone touchdowns per game: 1.6 (ranked 20th)
  • Offensive points per game: 17.6 (rank 24th)
  • Offensive line ranking: 12 run blocking. 24th pass protection.
  • Defense ranking: 24th

Jacksonville Jaguars 2009

  • Red zone touchdown scoring: 51% conversion rate on 47 attempts. Ranked 16th.
  • Red zone scoring attempts per game: 2.9 (rank 20th)
  • Red zone touchdowns per game: 1.5 (rank 19th)
  • Offensive points per game: 18.2 (rank 22nd)
  • Offensive line ranking: 11th run blocking. 29th pass protection.
  • Defense ranking: 28th

Jacksonville Jaguars 2010

  • Red zone touchdown scoring: 63% conversion rate on 46 attempts. Ranked 3rd.
  • Red zone scoring attempts per game: 2.9 (rank 20th)
  • Red zone touchdowns per game: 1.8 (rank 13th)
  • Offensive points per game: 21.6 (rank 12th)
  • Offensive line ranking: 2nd run blocking. 24th pass protection.
  • Defense ranking: 32nd

Jacksonville Jaguars 2011

  • Red zone touchdown scoring: 48% conversion rate on 35 attempts. Ranked 21st.
  • Red zone scoring attempts per game: 2.2 (rank 30th)
  • Red zone touchdowns per game: 1.1 (rank 27th)
  • Offensive points per game: 13.5 (rank 29th)
  • Offensive line ranking: 13th run blocking. 26th pass protection.
  • Defense ranking: 5th

Atlanta Falcons 2012

  • Red zone touchdown scoring: 57% conversion rate on 63 attempts. Rank 10th.
  • Red zone scoring attempts per game: 3.8 (rank 4th)
  • Red zone touchdowns per game: 2.2 (rank 4th)
  • Offensive points per game: 25.6 (rank 4th)
  • Offensive line ranking: 24th run blocking. 8th pass protection.
  • Defense ranking: 12th

Atlanta Falcons 2013

  • Red zone touchdown scoring: 51% conversion rate on 52 attempts. Ranked 22nd.
  • Red zone scoring attempts per game: 3.2 (rank 14th)
  • Red zone touchdowns per game: 1.7 (rank 17th)
  • Offensive points per game: 20.7 (rank 19th)
  • Offensive line ranking: 24th run blocking. 7th pass protection.
  • Defense ranking: 29th

Atlanta Falcons 2014

  • Red zone touchdown scoring: 61% conversion on 44 attempts. Ranked 6th.
  • Red zone scoring attempts per game: 2.8 (rank 26th)
  • Red zone touchdowns per game: 1.7 (rank 16th)
  • Offensive points per game: 22.5 (rank 12th)
  • Offensive line ranking: 14th run blocking. 11th pass protection.
  • Defense ranking: 32nd

Tampa Bay Buccaneers 2015

  • Red zone touchdown scoring: 52% conversion rate on 51 attempts. Ranked 22nd.
  • Red zone scoring attempts per game: 3.2 (rank 13th)
  • Red zone touchdowns per game: 1.7 (rank 15th)
  • Offensive points per game: 20.3 (rank 19th)
  • Offensive line ranking: 9th run blocking. 14th pass protection.
  • Defense ranking: 18th

Tampa Bay Buccaneers 2016

  • Red zone touchdown scoring: 51% conversion rate on 54 attempts. Ranked 20th.
  • Red zone scoring attempts per game: 3.4 (rank 11th)
  • Red zone touchdowns per game: 1.8 (rank 16th)
  • Offensive points per game: 20.3 (rank 20th)
  • Offensive line ranking: 21st run blocking. 16th pass protection.
  • Defense ranking: 13th

Tampa Bay Buccaneers 2017

  • Red zone touchdown scoring: 49% conversion rate on 53 attempts. Ranked 24th.
  • Red zone scoring attempts per game: 3.3 (rank 8th)
  • Red zone touchdowns per game: 1.6 (rank 13th)
  • Offensive points per game: 19.6 (rank 19th)
  • Offensive line ranking: 16th run blocking. 16th pass protection.
  • Defense ranking: 32nd

Stats with out personnel or lack of personnel don’t say much. It’s the same argument people use to defend Shanny,s mediocre years for most of his career.  If John fox had kept his ego in check against a David Gerald, Jax would have done much better 2008-2010. That is what got John Fox fired. 

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