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The Koetter Identity


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35 minutes ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

From the TB analysts, they say it’s just what he runs on passing downs.

“One thing that stood out to me after reviewing the coaches film is that the Bucs’ passing offense used 11 personnel almost exclusively (11 personnel is code for one running back, one tight end and three receivers; it’s the most common personnel grouping in the NFL)”

 

And while I’m not sure this is on DK, TB’s inability to develop lineman is similar to Seattle with Cable:

“The list of linemen who have gotten to Tampa and flopped is a long one: Anthony Collins, Evan Smith, J.R. Sweezy, Ryan Jensen, Kadeem Edwards, Kevin Pamphile, Donovan Smith, Caleb Benenoch. General manager Jason Licht reminds me of the guy who spends half an hour sorting through the Walmart DVD bin, plucks Patch AdamsFever Pitch and Bad Santa 2 and thinks he has scored a fantastic deal.”

So you blame Koetter for offensive lineman? He doesn't teach them? Why is that his fault?

Cable is actually the oline coach. That's not a fair comparison at all.

And yeah 11 personnel is the most common formation in the NFL. I gurantee every team uses it nearly exclusively for passing the ball.

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3 minutes ago, Yo_Lover said:

So you blame Koetter for offensive lineman? He doesn't teach them? Why is that his fault?

Cable is actually the oline coach. That's not a fair comparison at all.

And yeah 11 personnel is the most common formation in the NFL. I gurantee every team uses it nearly exclusively for passing the ball.

Did you not read this?

“And while I’m not sure this is on DK, TB’s inability to develop lineman is similar to Seattle with Cable”

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1 minute ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

Did you not read this?

“And while I’m not sure this is on DK, TB’s inability to develop lineman is similar to Seattle with Cable”

If you bring it up part of you blames it on Koetter man. Otherwise you wouldn't have even mentioned it. Also you said "not sure" vs "this isn't Koetter's fault"

You left a gray area for anyone to think "maybe it is his fault".

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11 minutes ago, Yo_Lover said:

So you blame Koetter for offensive lineman? He doesn't teach them? Why is that his fault?

Cable is actually the oline coach. That's not a fair comparison at all.

And yeah 11 personnel is the most common formation in the NFL. I gurantee every team uses it nearly exclusively for passing the ball.

Positionless" is the phrase du jour for describing what the 49ers are building on offense. They're stocking up on players who allow them to vary their play calls and formations without ever changing the personnel. That layer of unpredictability is potentially deadly in a league where opposing coaches feast on tendencies.

Shanahan was already on the forefront of this concept last season. San Francisco ran 11 personnel (one running back, one tight end) with three receivers only  39 percent of the time last season, according to Sharp Football Stats. The next-lowest in the league was New Orleans at 53 percent. The NFL as a whole used 11 personnel a whopping 66 percent of the time, and passed out of that formation at the same rate.It's the most predictable of the common personnel groupings, and the 49ers utilized it far less than the rest of the league.”

Where Shanahan varies greatly from the rest of the league is in the use of 21 personnel (two running backs, one tight end) with two receivers. NFL teams on average use 21 personnel just 8 percent of the time. San Francisco utilized 42 percent of their offensive snaps in 2018. By comparison, New England runs it 28 percent of the time; no other team eclipsed 15 percent, and the Rams didn't use it once. While the league had a 40-60 pass-to-run ratio out of 21 personnel, the 49ers were at 46-54.

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22 minutes ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

Positionless" is the phrase du jour for describing what the 49ers are building on offense. They're stocking up on players who allow them to vary their play calls and formations without ever changing the personnel. That layer of unpredictability is potentially deadly in a league where opposing coaches feast on tendencies.

Shanahan was already on the forefront of this concept last season. San Francisco ran 11 personnel (one running back, one tight end) with three receivers only  39 percent of the time last season, according to Sharp Football Stats. The next-lowest in the league was New Orleans at 53 percent. The NFL as a whole used 11 personnel a whopping 66 percent of the time, and passed out of that formation at the same rate.It's the most predictable of the common personnel groupings, and the 49ers utilized it far less than the rest of the league.”

Where Shanahan varies greatly from the rest of the league is in the use of 21 personnel (two running backs, one tight end) with two receivers. NFL teams on average use 21 personnel just 8 percent of the time. San Francisco utilized 42 percent of their offensive snaps in 2018. By comparison, New England runs it 28 percent of the time; no other team eclipsed 15 percent, and the Rams didn't use it once. While the league had a 40-60 pass-to-run ratio out of 21 personnel, the 49ers were at 46-54.

That's cool and all but they still sucked. So if anything I wouldn't want to copy them.

Rams killed the league last year offensively.

Rams offense > 49ers offense.

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9 minutes ago, Yo_Lover said:

That's cool and all but they still sucked. So if anything I wouldn't want to copy them.

Rams killed the league last year offensively.

Rams offense > 49ers offense.

They were not great at all.  Even so, they scored the same number of points as us in 2017.  But did it with a 3rd string rookie QB, few offensive weapons and 70 million of their CAP on IR.

They are my dark horse to win the division.  Coleman’s quotes on the evolution of Shanny’s offense are interesting

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5 minutes ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

They were not great at all.  Even so, they scored the same number of points as us in 2017.  But did it with a 3rd string rookie QB, few offensive weapons and 70 million of their CAP on IR.

They are my dark horse to win the division.  Coleman’s quotes on the evolution of Shanny’s offense are interesting

They scored 10 points less than the offense everyone here, including you hated.

It wasn't a good offense.

Why does Shanny get a pass for poor personnel and Koetter doesn't?

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@Yo_Lover

Do you think Stocker can play a similar role as Kyle Juszczyk if we opt to run more 12 personnel?  

We are paying him a lot considering we already have a Pro Bowl TE.  They must see a bigger role than just TE.  

Would love to see more 12 personnel because you’re always a threat to run out of it.  You’re dictating to the defense.  The Rams didn’t run a single play out of 12 last year.  But once they realized Belichick wasn’t going to allow their outsize zone runs, a FB in 12 personnel would have been advantageous

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29 minutes ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

@Yo_Lover

Do you think Stocker can play a similar role as Kyle Juszczyk if we opt to run more 12 personnel?  

We are paying him a lot considering we already have a Pro Bowl TE.  They must see a bigger role than just TE.  

Would love to see more 12 personnel because you’re always a threat to run out of it.  You’re dictating to the defense.  The Rams didn’t run a single play out of 12 last year.  But once they realized Belichick wasn’t going to allow their outsize zone runs, a FB in 12 personnel would have been advantageous

Yes. Could also start him out at FB then motion him out or have him out and motion him in. Adds flexibility.

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18 hours ago, slick0ne said:

I hear ya. I still think they are going to hit the ground running

Agree. Even if Koetter doesn't turn out to be anything close to Shanahan, with our offensive weapons and Mattie Ice, this offense is going to move the ball and score points against everybody.

With Quinn taking over DC duties and key guys coming back healthy, it's hard for me to feel any real paranoia about our D either.

This team has everything it needs to have to be dominant on both sides of the ball at some point and it could easily begin when the season starts.

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5 hours ago, Yo_Lover said:

So you blame Koetter for offensive lineman? He doesn't teach them? Why is that his fault?

Cable is actually the oline coach. That's not a fair comparison at all.

And yeah 11 personnel is the most common formation in the NFL. I gurantee every team uses it nearly exclusively for passing the ball.

Yeah, genius, any more or less than 11 guys on the field is an automatic penalty. Thanks for the sage wisdom.

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Tour comparing Freeman offense to a ryan offense. I hardly think they are the same. 

I think we will see an explosion on offense especially in key downs. Allowing ryan to take more control. 

I don't think either of our 2 previous coordinators allowed that leading to a bteakdown in the 28-3 debacle. Although i think a coordinator helps disguise game plans and defines the run game. 

I think the run game is our focus and koetter will help that along with our draft

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11 minutes ago, metatron360 said:

Tour comparing Freeman offense to a ryan offense. I hardly think they are the same. 

I think we will see an explosion on offense especially in key downs. Allowing ryan to take more control. 

I don't think either of our 2 previous coordinators allowed that leading to a bteakdown in the 28-3 debacle. Although i think a coordinator helps disguise game plans and defines the run game. 

I think the run game is our focus and koetter will help that along with our draft

This isn’t a bash Koetter thread.  I think we will do just fine.  But DK has had a full cupboard of groceries at his disposal.  

Last 6 years calling plays: 22 ppg

Players at his disposal:

QB’s: Ryan/Freeman/Fitzpatrick

WR’s: Julio, Evans, Roddy, Douglass, Jackson, Hester, Humphries, Goodwin

TE’s: Tony G, OJ Howard, Stocker, Brate

RB’s: Turner, Quizz, Martin, Barber, Sims

FB: DiMarco, Stocker

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10 hours ago, Knight of God said:

Having big, good, or better doesn’t normally curb tendencies 

How do you see his tendencies changing using someone else’s playbook?  Can a leopard change its spots?

Honestly, I am just glad his offense isn’t coming with him.  I think he has a great football mind.  But his system has done absolutely nothing in the past 6 years.   And he hurts his OL more than he helps them.  He admits it.  He knows his OL isn’t great so instead of doing things to help them, he sticks to his long developing WR routes.

 

Another thing about Koetter’s offense, which stretches the field and focuses heavily on a vertical attack with longer passes, is that the routes themselves are longer. These aren’t designed routes that allow for a ton of yards-after-catch. They’re long, vertical routes (mostly in that aforementioned 15-19 yard range). This season, the Bucs rank first in air yards per target. That is, how far the ball actually travels through the air, versus a shorter pass where a receiver or running back may take it another 10 yards down the field after they make the catch. The Bucs are averaging 11.6 air yards per target, which is almost a full yard further than the next highest, which is Houston at 10.8. Ok, so what? You may ask. Well, ok, this theoretically means the routes receivers are running are longer routes, meaning the receivers need time to get to their designated positions, so the quarterback has to hold the ball in the pocket for longer.

And herein lies what I really want to talk about: the time this offense requires on the front end.

We know [the quarterback is] going to hold the ball because obviously we have a bunch of deep threats and the way our pass offense is, it takes a little time to develop,” center Ryan Jensen explained. “We’re out there just grinding away. We know it’s going to take longer so we have to extend that clock in our head.”

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