FalconsIn2020

The Koetter Identity

100 posts in this topic

15 hours ago, Yo_Lover said:

If you bring it up part of you blames it on Koetter man. Otherwise you wouldn't have even mentioned it. Also you said "not sure" vs "this isn't Koetter's fault"

You left a gray area for anyone to think "maybe it is his fault".

I mentioned Cable because he actually picked the lineman. 

From 2011 through 2017—the majority of the Pete Carroll era in Seattle—Tom Cable was Carroll’s “Assistant head coach/offensive line coach & run game coordinator.” It was a wordy title, but in short, Cable was in charge of drafting, recommending, helping to sign, and training the Seahawks’ offensive linemen.

And for the most part, it was an abject disaster. Cable’s personnel whiffs in the draft, where he was the primary voice in the room when it came to selecting blockers, formed a pattern that led to years of sub-par performances.

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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

Coleman in the slot was unfair to LB’s like Marshall.  Could Green fill that role this season?

2016RECRB4.gif

Green or the WR from VA. 

 

Edited by NWFALCON
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On 7/13/2019 at 2:00 PM, FalconsIn2020 said:

someone asked for some Tampa plays and I went back and watched.  It was discouraging.  Especially on the redzone.  First and foremost, he used 11 personnel on nearly every single snap.  No creativity.  They also do next to nothing in terms of motion or groupings to win presnap.  They simply don’t motion or window dress their plays.  Like Sark, he appears to win on talent over scheme.  The 2012 Seahawks playoff game and this video below are not impressive.  

Primary Concern: he moves the ball but can’t find the end zone.  Last year he called one game for the Bucs.  The output: 3 points.  In fact, in games where Koetter called the plays since 2015, they average 20.5 ppg 

 

On 7/13/2019 at 2:42 PM, Stray Dog THA GAWD said:

I think having Dirk back will hinder Ryan more than it helps.  Time will tell.

Under Koetter, people here, talking heads on TV, and sports writers almost universally considered Matt Ryan to be "very good, but not elite", or a phrase I heard and read often was "a poor man's Eli Manning".

Under Shanahan, after a year of un-Koettering, he became the MVP-level QB we have grown accustomed to. That we have grown to expect. I expect a serious regression for the offense.

We still do not have anything close to an adequate defense. We have 3, maybe 4 guys deserving of an NFL starting roster spot; the rest of our defensive personnel are just marginally competent guys. That is actually true for the majority of tams. But this middling, marginal, mediocre-at-best defense is not sufficient to carry a struggling 20-ppg offense.

I foresee a .500-ish record at best, most likely a 5-7 win season, and a major housecleaning of coaches and personnel. I think the front office people may fear this as well, and this may be the reason behind not locking in Grady to a long term deal. His skill set may not mesh with a new defensive scheme brought in by a new coaching staff.

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In spite if all the great offensive plays we made with Kyle Shanahan here as the OC,  the thing I will remember most about KS is he lost us the Super Bowl. His ego cost us big time. Run the ball kick the field goal and we WOULD have been champions. 

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On 7/14/2019 at 7:36 PM, Roanoke Falcon said:

 

Under Koetter, people here, talking heads on TV, and sports writers almost universally considered Matt Ryan to be "very good, but not elite", or a phrase I heard and read often was "a poor man's Eli Manning".

Under Shanahan, after a year of un-Koettering, he became the MVP-level QB we have grown accustomed to. That we have grown to expect. I expect a serious regression for the offense.

We still do not have anything close to an adequate defense. We have 3, maybe 4 guys deserving of an NFL starting roster spot; the rest of our defensive personnel are just marginally competent guys. That is actually true for the majority of tams. But this middling, marginal, mediocre-at-best defense is not sufficient to carry a struggling 20-ppg offense.

I foresee a .500-ish record at best, most likely a 5-7 win season, and a major housecleaning of coaches and personnel. I think the front office people may fear this as well, and this may be the reason behind not locking in Grady to a long term deal. His skill set may not mesh with a new defensive scheme brought in by a new coaching staff.

No lies detected.

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On 7/13/2019 at 4:48 PM, Yo_Lover said:

I really don't see the point tbh. No one is like Kyle. No matter who we hire they'll never do what he did. If that's your measuring stick then everyone will suck. It would be like drafting a WR and expecting Julio, or a CB and wanting Deion. Just not gonna happen.

I think Shanny is given a little too much credit for 2016. Offense was very fortunate injury-wise that season, only team in NFL where OL played entire season together as a unit. 

Ryan and passing game was every bit as good last year under Sark. A lot of injuries in OL and especially at RB killed our running game, as it would have if Shanny was still the OC.

Our offense was meh in 2015, and SF has been meh ever since he’s been their HC.

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1) You're late to the party. Some of us already knew DK isn't the world beater TAFT is claiming

2) In before the "He had a top running game in Jacksonville" TEN YEARS AGO stupidity.

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17 minutes ago, runshoot said:

1) You're late to the party. Some of us already knew DK isn't the world beater TAFT is claiming

2) In before the "He had a top running game in Jacksonville" TEN YEARS AGO stupidity.

Lol

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Ehhh.... I think a lot of things in this thread were wrong/misrepresented. 

First, it's 2019. Comparing any offensive scheme/philosophy/gameplan/etc from 2012 to now is so off base. The game has changed. A ton. 

Second, constantly comparing OCs to Kyle is futile. Kyle is unique, which is what made him tough to beat. But let's not act like he just went to San Fran and has destroyed the league all over again. We lost Kyle, but Kyle lost Matt. We have the more important piece at the end of the day. 

Third, Koetter is a proven, experienced OC with a variety of creativity that he showcased while here and in Tampa. He was the original OC to figure out the Legion of Boom when it was castrating offenses across the league. That Washington game was a fluke. They racked up over 500 yards of offense, but couldn't finish in the red zone due to player error, not playcalling. So at least represent that correctly. 

Also, the complaint about Koetter running too much 11 personnel is a preference complaint, not some death knell in him being the OC. The Rams just ran 11 personnel almost 90% of the time, en route to the SB last year. The Chiefs run it a crap ton as well, which are led by Andy Reid, a coach Koetter has had a relationship with over 30 years now. Also, talent has to be accounted for. A lot of issues Koetter had in Tampa won't exist: Matt Ryan is miles better than Winston/Fitz, the Falcons OL is much better, the weapons are more consistent and deeper. 

He's going to run most of what's in place, but he's going to add his elements. All OCs do. What I'm excited about is Dirk hasn't lost his ability to exploit defenses. He showed that with that Washington game. Him having a full stock of weapons with a top five QB at his disposal changes things. Again, ask Kyle. No, he doesn't run a lot of motion looks. But neither did Sark, until he came. Having Matt and Julio helps any OC, especially at their ages now versus when Koetter first was here. It's a much different situation. Plus, he's got a plethora of offensive minds to lean on to round out the offense and provide input. I bet it's a much different offense than what we've seen Koetter coach before. 

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On 7/14/2019 at 6:36 PM, Roanoke Falcon said:

 

Under Koetter, people here, talking heads on TV, and sports writers almost universally considered Matt Ryan to be "very good, but not elite", or a phrase I heard and read often was "a poor man's Eli Manning".

Under Shanahan, after a year of un-Koettering, he became the MVP-level QB we have grown accustomed to. That we have grown to expect. I expect a serious regression for the offense.

We still do not have anything close to an adequate defense. We have 3, maybe 4 guys deserving of an NFL starting roster spot; the rest of our defensive personnel are just marginally competent guys. That is actually true for the majority of tams. But this middling, marginal, mediocre-at-best defense is not sufficient to carry a struggling 20-ppg offense.

I foresee a .500-ish record at best, most likely a 5-7 win season, and a major housecleaning of coaches and personnel. I think the front office people may fear this as well, and this may be the reason behind not locking in Grady to a long term deal. His skill set may not mesh with a new defensive scheme brought in by a new coaching staff.

Lol this is quite hilarious honestly. Under Koetter, Matt set franchise records and had a stat line of:

4700 yards, 32 TDs, 69% completion, 99.1 rating

Those were career bests. Even put up 30 points on the LOB, a season high in points allowed for that defense that year. Torched the Niners as well until things fell apart in typical Falcons fashion (Kyle wasn't even immune to that...). Then, the OL fell apart in 13-14 and the rest is history. So, trying to use Koetter's time with Matt as an indictment that he's a downgrade is lazy. Kyle had an unusually healthy group in 2016 and a more mature/developed Matt and Julio. 

Matt is now a much better QB than the version Koetter first saw. The OL is much deeper and better overall than 2013-14. Foreseeing a 5-7 win season is also hilarious, considering it took severe injuries for that to happen in 2018, and even then were a couple of plays away from a winning season. 

I don't know why I wasted time responding to this hilariously pathetic post. It's hilarious because there is no basis for it. 3, maybe 4 guys worthy of starting on an NFL roster on defense? Lol Debo, Neal, Trufant, Grady, Oliver, Campbell, Kazee, Takk. That's 7 my friend. Easily.

The easiest thing in life is to not be stupid. It's the effort that's the hard part. Don't be stupid. 

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Koetter has forget more football than ANY of us will ever know.  He will do great with all the weapons we have.  This offense is going to soar, and you can take that to the bank!

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On ‎7‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 8:46 AM, AvidFalconFan said:

In spite if all the great offensive plays we made with Kyle Shanahan here as the OC,  the thing I will remember most about KS is he lost us the Super Bowl. His ego cost us big time. Run the ball kick the field goal and we WOULD have been champions. 

Preach! #Truth

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2 hours ago, Vandy said:

I think Shanny is given a little too much credit for 2016. Offense was very fortunate injury-wise that season, only team in NFL where OL played entire season together as a unit. 

Ryan and passing game was every bit as good last year under Sark. A lot of injuries in OL and especially at RB killed our running game, as it would have if Shanny was still the OC.

Our offense was meh in 2015, and SF has been meh ever since he’s been their HC.

You’re right about the injuries.  

But our offense wasn’t nearly as balanced or efficient the last two years.  Raw numbers, yes. But fewer yards on 100 more pass attempts just doesn’t show the efficiency or explosiveness we had in 2016.  And we had a more talented offensive roster last year.

With regards to HC Shannahan.  I don’t know.  Maybe he is a bum.  I do know Mullens and CJ Bethard are not going to win you games in the NFL.  At least with Jimmy G they went 7-2 and averaged 29 ppg.   I could see them pushing the Rams for that division

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1 hour ago, vel said:

Ehhh.... I think a lot of things in this thread were wrong/misrepresented. 

First, it's 2019. Comparing any offensive scheme/philosophy/gameplan/etc from 2012 to now is so off base. The game has changed. A ton. 

Second, constantly comparing OCs to Kyle is futile. Kyle is unique, which is what made him tough to beat. But let's not act like he just went to San Fran and has destroyed the league all over again. We lost Kyle, but Kyle lost Matt. We have the more important piece at the end of the day. 

Third, Koetter is a proven, experienced OC with a variety of creativity that he showcased while here and in Tampa. He was the original OC to figure out the Legion of Boom when it was castrating offenses across the league. That Washington game was a fluke. They racked up over 500 yards of offense, but couldn't finish in the red zone due to player error, not playcalling. So at least represent that correctly. 

Also, the complaint about Koetter running too much 11 personnel is a preference complaint, not some death knell in him being the OC. The Rams just ran 11 personnel almost 90% of the time, en route to the SB last year. The Chiefs run it a crap ton as well, which are led by Andy Reid, a coach Koetter has had a relationship with over 30 years now. Also, talent has to be accounted for. A lot of issues Koetter had in Tampa won't exist: Matt Ryan is miles better than Winston/Fitz, the Falcons OL is much better, the weapons are more consistent and deeper. 

He's going to run most of what's in place, but he's going to add his elements. All OCs do. What I'm excited about is Dirk hasn't lost his ability to exploit defenses. He showed that with that Washington game. Him having a full stock of weapons with a top five QB at his disposal changes things. Again, ask Kyle. No, he doesn't run a lot of motion looks. But neither did Sark, until he came. Having Matt and Julio helps any OC, especially at their ages now versus when Koetter first was here. It's a much different situation. Plus, he's got a plethora of offensive minds to lean on to round out the offense and provide input. I bet it's a much different offense than what we've seen Koetter coach before. 

I address most of this in the OP.  I agree that times change quickly.  I also think Koetter’s football mind is far better than his playbook.  My biggest thing is him leaving that behind him.   I believe he can get more out of this system than Sark.  I think Morris, Knapp & Ryan will also prove invaluable.

But Koetter’s system left his OL out to dry every single year.  It requires longer routes and more difficult throws into tighter windows.  That’s not playing to your strengthens when your OL is average and your QB’s are not incredibly accurate.  The very best coaches play to strengths of their personnel, not their playbook

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24 minutes ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

You’re right about the injuries.  

But our offense wasn’t nearly as balanced or efficient the last two years.  Raw numbers, yes. But fewer yards on 100 more pass attempts just doesn’t show the efficiency or explosiveness we had in 2016.  And we had a more talented offensive roster last year.

With regards to HC Shannahan.  I don’t know.  Maybe he is a bum.  I do know Mullens and CJ Bethard are not going to win you games in the NFL.  At least with Jimmy G they went 7-2 and averaged 29 ppg.   I could see them pushing the Rams for that division

Where did you get those numbers? With Jimmy G as his QB, Kyle Shanahan is 1-2 and averaged 24 PPG. Not a very good sample size if you ask me. 

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7 minutes ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

I address most of this in the OP.  I agree that times change quickly.  I also think Koetter’s football mind is far better than his playbook.  My biggest thing is him leaving that behind him.   I believe he can get more out of this system than Sark.  I think Morris, Knapp & Ryan will also prove invaluable.

But Koetter’s system left his OL out to dry every single year.  It requires longer routes and more difficult throws into tighter windows.  That’s not playing to your strengthens when your OL is average and your QB’s are not incredibly accurate.  The very best coaches play to strengths of their personnel, not their playbook

Yes, Koetter's system can be stressful on the OL, but left out to dry is a bit of an exaggeration. Again, it's not much he can do when there is a lack of talent. But even with that, they still put up 500 yards of offense vs Washington. He clearly was able to mitigate it to enough of a degree. And if you look, few of those throws were tight windows. They weren't wide open bombs like Kyle seems to create out of thin air, but take the first INT Fitz threw in the red zone. Basic flood concept got the WR open with space on the sideline. Easy throw for a Matt Ryan caliber QB, but Fitz misses and it's picked. 

You can play to the strengths of your personnel. But when both of your QBs are highly inconsistent, what do you do? Fitz, week one, was unstoppable vs New Orleans. He put up 1200 yards in three weeks. The next two games he played he put up less than 400 yards and 2 TDs. The game before the Washington game, he put up 4 TDs. Going into the Washington game, do you know which Fitz you're getting? No. 

You're preaching to the choir about playing to strengths, but you're conveniently ignoring a lot. You can only play to a strength if it's consistent. Matt Ryan is consistent. Julio is consistent. Ryan Fitzpatrick/Jameis Winston are far from that. You can highlight what strengths they do have, but when those even fluctuate in game, what do you do? Again, 500 yards tells you Koetter had the gameplan right. The multiple turnovers, fumbles, drops, bad snaps, etc are out of his control and you can't blame on "not playing to strengths". 

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16 minutes ago, JD dirtybird21 said:

Where did you get those numbers? With Jimmy G as his QB, Kyle Shanahan is 1-2 and averaged 24 PPG. Not a very good sample size if you ask me. 

They were 5-0 in 2017.  Put up 44 points on Jags great defense and 34 on Rams.  

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8 minutes ago, JD dirtybird21 said:

Where did you get those numbers? With Jimmy G as his QB, Kyle Shanahan is 1-2 and averaged 24 PPG. Not a very good sample size if you ask me. 

Add in 2017. Jimmy G is a whopping 12:4 TD/INT ratio in 9 games with a 6-3 record. Jimmy G ain't good and won't be the reason they get better. 

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12 minutes ago, JD dirtybird21 said:

Where did you get those numbers? With Jimmy G as his QB, Kyle Shanahan is 1-2 and averaged 24 PPG. Not a very good sample size if you ask me. 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, vel said:

Add in 2017. Jimmy G is a whopping 12:4 TD/INT ratio in 9 games with a 6-3 record. Jimmy G ain't good and won't be the reason they get better. 

What’s not good about those numbers?

2017 - Pre Jimmy G: 1-11

2017 - Post Jimmy G: 5-0

Without him they had the worst points per drive in the NFL.  With him they had the best points per drive.  Seems pretty solid.

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40 minutes ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

They were 5-0 in 2017.  Put up 44 points on Jags great defense and 34 on Rams.  

 

40 minutes ago, vel said:

Add in 2017. Jimmy G is a whopping 12:4 TD/INT ratio in 9 games with a 6-3 record. Jimmy G ain't good and won't be the reason they get better. 

That's right. I forgot about 2017 that they made the trade. 

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1 hour ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

What’s not good about those numbers?

2017 - Pre Jimmy G: 1-11

2017 - Post Jimmy G: 5-0

Without him they had the worst points per drive in the NFL.  With him they had the best points per drive.  Seems pretty solid.

Jimmy is fine. He's not the game changing QB people make him out to be. Teams hadn't seen Jimmy yet, so it was inflated. Once teams adjusted to Jimmy, they went 1-2. It's just like when Foles went on that run. Teams were used to gameplanning for Wentz, not Foles, so they didn't know what to do. Let's see Jimmy play a full season, but I'm not on board with Jimmy being much more than an average QB. 

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11 personnel is becoming the norm league-wide. Of all offensive snaps last year, ~60% we're run out of the 11 personnel grouping. The Rams were over 80%.

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