Goober Pyle

Expect a more consistent rushing attack in 2019

39 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, vel said:

You're arguing some hypothetical point. The fact is, his vision, agility, and physicality didn't improve in four years. Whether they told him to work on it or not is irrelevant and a different argument altogether. 

He did exactly what I thought he would: be a boom or bust RB with very high highs and more head scratching lows. Those backs are heavily dependent upon ideal conditions to produce at any level of consistency. We saw that last year when the OL wasn't there. We saw in 2016 when the OL was. I acknowledged the OL improving will help, so that point was already agreed upon. Coleman will have the same inconsistency issues in San Fran. I'd be willing to bet he sniffs a 50/50 run/pass split on his touches because he's more air back than running back. In space, he's hard to stop. But it's hard to get a running back in space by handing him the ball. And when he's handed the ball, his flaws are magnified. 

Show me rbs in the league today that have the vision like Freeman and Bell. Zeke doesnt, Gurley either they are both one cut runners. 

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19 minutes ago, Falcons Fan MVP said:

I wish we still had Tevin Coleman. in case Free or Itto has an injury.

I think Ollison offers a ton more than Coleman can if Free goes down. 

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1 hour ago, ya_boi_j said:

I’m not arguing hypotheticals at all. It’s the truth. All of what you wanted isn’t a part of his game and likely never will be if he isn’t coached to be better. Some guys are naturals. The other guys need to be coached. If you expected him to just magically gain those skills  on his own then you were fooling yourself all along. Clearly you expected him to be a player that he wasn’t. It’s just like those of us who bash Trufant because he can’t catch a cold. Like I said, had the coaching staff stressed anything other than using guys to their strengths as their primary approach then I’d agree with you. Given “coach speak” vs what you personally expected, I have to disagree with your take. 

I never said I expected him to gain those skills. I'm noting what he lacks that makes him an inconsistent lead back which contributed to the inconsistent rushing attack that the OP expects to see a more consistent version this year. Somehow, you turned that into "Coleman wasn't asked to improve those things" or "Stop comparing him to other backs".

I never expected him to suddenly be more agile or more physical. You're trying to create an argument out of nothing (i.e. he wasn't coached to do said things), which I frankly don't even care to bother doing. You can read my posts. I never said anything about comparing him to anybody or wishing he had things that he didn't. Here is my first post:

Quote

"Having Freeman back and Coleman gone improves the running game outright. The improved OL helps on top of that. Throw in a very diverse RB stable and it comes down to OC utilization of the talent he has in the backfield. I know a lot of people will miss Coleman and the highlights, but I'm looking forward to a consistent ground game again, which Coleman didn't provide."

First thing I noted were the RB changes. Second thing I noted was the OL. Clearly, I made it clear I didn't blame the lack of rushing attack solely on Coleman, but given he's gone and the rest of the OL has already been modified and we don't know what the additions will look like, I can only speak to the absence of Coleman, which I did. You replied (incorrectly out the gate claiming I stated "Coleman didn't provide anything"), which I followed up with a detailed explanation to my issue with Coleman as a lead back, the flaws in his game and how the OCs worked to best utilize his talents. I provided a good example of Coleman having a monster game in space, but Ito providing NFL quality runs in comparison and you took that as: "The issue I see most of you having is that you get caught up in making comparisons." I made the comparison because your argument leaned towards "The OL sucked, it's not Coleman's fault" in which I gave a game in which another RB was able to create with the same situation that Coleman couldn't at the same rate. But the kicker is you literally say what I've said this point with the following:

Quote

I think we all know that Coleman is a different back than Freeman and even Ito. We all know Freeman has better vision and other attributes that got him paid. Can't hold Coleman to that standard IMO because you go in knowing that isn't Coleman's game. If the OL doesn't do their job good enough, any back similar to Coleman is going to fail, that just is what it is.

Which basically is you saying "Coleman doesn't have the vision and attributes that Freeman has and it's unfair to compare him because you know Coleman doesn't have those things and if the OL doesn't block, of course he's going to fail." which is exactly what my first two posts lay out in about as clear of explanation as I can give.

I even proceed with the following reply:

Freeman would have struggled, yes, because you still need blocking. But there were several runs that Coleman had 0-2 yards that would have been better runs had he had better vision or agility. It's not a comparison to anybody, it's a lack of ability/skill that his is missing. 

He's a straight line RB with little wiggle, little vision, and little physicality. I've said it since 2015. Get him in space and he's an absolute terror. When defenses saw him on the field, they knew if he was running the ball, it was towards the sideline. They essentially would string him out and he'd go out of bounds. He never was a threat to truck you nor juke you, so teams played to that. He broke some, which skews his averages, but he whiffed much more because of it. There is a reason there wasn't a glut of teams chasing after Coleman in FA...

Which somehow prompts the argument you make of:

Here's my thing though, was he ever tasked to improve or was the decision always to try to use his strengths alone?? That's a question that can't be answered here.

Which is pointless, stupid, and not the point of any part of the thread or my point/argument. I'm not going to chase you when I've already made my point, multiple times at this point, which you even said the same in your own words. Somehow, some posters here take criticism of Coleman as "he sucks and I'm glad he's gone!". Coleman is who he is. I don't care if the coaches asked him to improve or not, if he chose to not improve those flaws or not, they still exist after four years and contribute to his inconsistent production as a lead runner and why he had a cold FA market for his services). He is lethal in the open field, where his flaws can be hidden and his strengths magnified. But lead backs, which he was in 2018, need to be more than just space players. They need to provide versatility, toughness on runs inside, and be able to create, which you even admitted himself he doesn't have. It's why he didn't produce like other lead backs, in conjunction with a poor run blocking OL. Like I said, there were several runs Coleman missed due to his lack of vision and his desire to bounce to the outside immediately. When you average less than 3 yards on inside runs for your career but near 6 yards on runs outside the tackles, I don't blame him. That's his game. Boom or bust. Inconsistent. 

Sorry @Goober Pyle for the long post and I hope this doesn't derail your thread. I'm just tired of posters trying to create arguments out of nothing instead of reading and replying to the post/point being made. 

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3 minutes ago, vel said:

I never said I expected him to gain those skills. I'm noting what he lacks that makes him an inconsistent lead back which contributed to the inconsistent rushing attack that the OP expects to see a more consistent version this year. Somehow, you turned that into "Coleman wasn't asked to improve those things" or "Stop comparing him to other backs".

I never expected him to suddenly be more agile or more physical. You're trying to create an argument out of nothing (i.e. he wasn't coached to do said things), which I frankly don't even care to bother doing. You can read my posts. I never said anything about comparing him to anybody or wishing he had things that he didn't. Here is my first post:

First thing I noted were the RB changes. Second thing I noted was the OL. Clearly, I made it clear I didn't blame the lack of rushing attack solely on Coleman, but given he's gone and the rest of the OL has already been modified and we don't know what the additions will look like, I can only speak to the absence of Coleman, which I did. You replied (incorrectly out the gate claiming I stated "Coleman didn't provide anything"), which I followed up with a detailed explanation to my issue with Coleman as a lead back, the flaws in his game and how the OCs worked to best utilize his talents. I provided a good example of Coleman having a monster game in space, but Ito providing NFL quality runs in comparison and you took that as: "The issue I see most of you having is that you get caught up in making comparisons." I made the comparison because your argument leaned towards "The OL sucked, it's not Coleman's fault" in which I gave a game in which another RB was able to create with the same situation that Coleman couldn't at the same rate. But the kicker is you literally say what I've said this point with the following:

Which basically is you saying "Coleman doesn't have the vision and attributes that Freeman has and it's unfair to compare him because you know Coleman doesn't have those things and if the OL doesn't block, of course he's going to fail." which is exactly what my first two posts lay out in about as clear of explanation as I can give.

I even proceed with the following reply:

Freeman would have struggled, yes, because you still need blocking. But there were several runs that Coleman had 0-2 yards that would have been better runs had he had better vision or agility. It's not a comparison to anybody, it's a lack of ability/skill that his is missing. 

He's a straight line RB with little wiggle, little vision, and little physicality. I've said it since 2015. Get him in space and he's an absolute terror. When defenses saw him on the field, they knew if he was running the ball, it was towards the sideline. They essentially would string him out and he'd go out of bounds. He never was a threat to truck you nor juke you, so teams played to that. He broke some, which skews his averages, but he whiffed much more because of it. There is a reason there wasn't a glut of teams chasing after Coleman in FA...

Which somehow prompts the argument you make of:

Here's my thing though, was he ever tasked to improve or was the decision always to try to use his strengths alone?? That's a question that can't be answered here.

Which is pointless, stupid, and not the point of any part of the thread or my point/argument. I'm not going to chase you when I've already made my point, multiple times at this point, which you even said the same in your own words. Somehow, some posters here take criticism of Coleman as "he sucks and I'm glad he's gone!". Coleman is who he is. I don't care if the coaches asked him to improve or not, if he chose to not improve those flaws or not, they still exist after four years and contribute to his inconsistent production as a lead runner and why he had a cold FA market for his services). He is lethal in the open field, where his flaws can be hidden and his strengths magnified. But lead backs, which he was in 2018, need to be more than just space players. They need to provide versatility, toughness on runs inside, and be able to create, which you even admitted himself he doesn't have. It's why he didn't produce like other lead backs, in conjunction with a poor run blocking OL. Like I said, there were several runs Coleman missed due to his lack of vision and his desire to bounce to the outside immediately. When you average less than 3 yards on inside runs for your career but near 6 yards on runs outside the tackles, I don't blame him. That's his game. Boom or bust. Inconsistent. 

Sorry @Goober Pyle for the long post and I hope this doesn't derail your thread. I'm just tired of posters trying to create arguments out of nothing instead of reading and replying to the post/point being made. 

Lol I’m not trying to create anything. I’m having a conversation. If you can’t do that without getting too bent out of shape about it then I apologize. I disagreed with your comment about him being inconsistent. At this very moment I still disagree with the picture you’re painting. 

I do appreciate that though. It’s noted

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47 minutes ago, caponine said:

Show me rbs in the league today that have the vision like Freeman and Bell. Zeke doesnt, Gurley either they are both one cut runners. 

How about I give you RBs who have better vision than Coleman?

Kamara, White, McAffrey, Barkley, Johnson, Zeke, Gurley, Conner, Mixon, Bernard, Gordon, Lindsay, Michel, Cohen, McCoy, Ito. 

There are several backs with better vision and you can't argue that list. Again, I never made the comparison to Freeman and Bell (which I'm guessing you think are the two best RBs in terms of vision?) so I'm not going to bother with any arguments that suggest I am. And that's not a ranking either, just a list off the top of my head. Some of those guys may not be lead backs. Go watch some film of James White in NE. Some of his runs are pure art. Vision isn't just seeing the hole and hitting it. It's seeing where the hole is going to be and influencing the defense to help open that hole. Coleman doesn't have that because he knows just one speed. He's a full speed runner. If he ever learned how to shorten his stride, he'd be more gathered to change direction, stutter, be more patient, etc. The nuance that better RBs have (and I'm not saying that group of RBs is better than Coleman before somebody tries to make that an argument too). He'd be scary. But he doesn't. That's why shoe string tackles take him down. That's why he can't juke. He isn't stiff, but because he's full speed, he can't move. If you notice, even his routes run are either screens (standing still to a full sprint) or straight lines (seams, slants, etc.). 

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2 minutes ago, ya_boi_j said:

Lol I’m not trying to create anything. I’m having a conversation. If you can’t do that without getting too bent out of shape about it then I apologize. I disagreed with your comment about him being inconsistent. At this very moment I still disagree with the picture you’re painting. 

I do appreciate that though. It’s noted

I'm not bent out of shape in anyway. I'm just not arguing points that I didn't make. I made my point. You literally agreed with it in your own words. You just blame the OL for Coleman's inconsistent production. We'll move on. 2019 will tell the tale. 

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1 minute ago, vel said:

How about I give you RBs who have better vision than Coleman?

Kamara, White, McAffrey, Barkley, Johnson, Zeke, Gurley, Conner, Mixon, Bernard, Gordon, Lindsay, Michel, Cohen, McCoy, Ito. 

There are several backs with better vision and you can't argue that list. Again, I never made the comparison to Freeman and Bell (which I'm guessing you think are the two best RBs in terms of vision?) so I'm not going to bother with any arguments that suggest I am. And that's not a ranking either, just a list off the top of my head. Some of those guys may not be lead backs. Go watch some film of James White in NE. Some of his runs are pure art. Vision isn't just seeing the hole and hitting it. It's seeing where the hole is going to be and influencing the defense to help open that hole. Coleman doesn't have that because he knows just one speed. He's a full speed runner. If he ever learned how to shorten his stride, he'd be more gathered to change direction, stutter, be more patient, etc. The nuance that better RBs have (and I'm not saying that group of RBs is better than Coleman before somebody tries to make that an argument too). He'd be scary. But he doesn't. That's why shoe string tackles take him down. That's why he can't juke. He isn't stiff, but because he's full speed, he can't move. If you notice, even his routes run are either screens (standing still to a full sprint) or straight lines (seams, slants, etc.). 

Kamara, McCaffrey, Conner ??? Not every running back is going to have great vision. Mixson and Barkley look like they do but Zeke , Gurley, Kamara, Mcaffrey and Conner i have not seen them display incredible vision. Their speed and the scheme, fits great with their respective teams. 

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1 hour ago, Vandy said:

You’re on point.

No excuses for last year, Coleman was THE guy and didn’t produce at #1 level. His best role is at change-of-pace RB.

That's it. Which isn't a bad thing. He's a great change of pace back. I think he's one of the best receivers out of the backfield. But when it comes to handing him the ball, he lacks a lot and it showed all 2018. HeIl I don't think Kyle even handed him the ball that much in 2016 once he showed he can dominate through the air. 

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3 minutes ago, caponine said:

Kamara, McCaffrey, Conner ??? Not every running back is going to have great vision. Mixson and Barkley look like they do but Zeke , Gurley, Kamara, Mcaffrey and Conner i have not seen them display incredible vision. Their speed and the scheme, fits great with their respective teams. 

Great vision is not what I said. Better than Coleman is what I said. 

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38 minutes ago, vel said:

I'm not bent out of shape in anyway. I'm just not arguing points that I didn't make. I made my point. You literally agreed with it in your own words. You just blame the OL for Coleman's inconsistent production. We'll move on. 2019 will tell the tale. 

That last line in that post told it differently, especially since you combined me with the posters who do it regularly . Like I said, I do apologize. 

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It’s abundantly clear that the Falcons’ didn’t trust their short yardage running game based on those third down numbers. Atlanta was also abysmal running behind center and right guard, with 3.2 and 3.1 YPC, respectively. That might explain why the Falcons were so eager to improve their interior OL, and it’s likely that Alex Mack’s performance was impacted heavily by the poor play around him.

 

This was BRUTAL to watch and frankly made team hard to watch IMO... I had zero faith in short yardage, be curious to know what 3rd and 2/ 3rd and 1 ranked as a team. Makes me appreciate Ryan even more

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IMHO, the success of the season will lie directly on the shoulders of the O-Line.  We went "all-in" this offseason on the O-Line:

  • 2 First round picks and Guard and Tackle
  • 2 Free agents
  • 1 TE/FB

If they perform and own the LOS, we can run, pass, burn the clock and convert short yardage 3rd & 1, Goal line, 4th & 1.  This will get us successfully through the season and into the playoffs.  

The post season will depend on the Defense coming together under DQ and getting turnovers.  They will likely give up some points this year, but if they can get turnovers or force the opponent to settle for 3 points we go deep into the playoffs.  

This season is all about the offense & I can't wait to see what the O-Line looks like in preseason and gameday.  

Off topic for this thread, but I'm also hopeful our ST can put our O in good field position. Specifically, not inside the 10 yard line 3-4 times a game.  

 

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