apl2g

Julio has no plans to hold out..

226 posts in this topic

30 minutes ago, Yo_Lover said:

This. If you can go 11-5 with Matt Cassell I'm convinced he could use Jacoby Brisett and just pour money into one elite WR/TE and the rest into defense and still win rings.

But nobody takes into account the production dropoff between 2007 & 2008.

The 2007 Patriots had 590 points.  The 2008 Patriots had 410 points.  Brady added about 200 points of value which is incredible.

The 2008 Patriots allowed 310 points defensively.  That’s how they won 11 games.  They also lost 5 more games without Brady.

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1 minute ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

But nobody takes into account the production dropoff between 2007 & 2008.

The 2007 Patriots had 590 points.  The 2008 Patriots had 410 points.  Brady added about 200 points of value which is incredible.

The 2008 Patriots allowed 310 points defensively.  That’s how they won 11 games.  They also lost 5 more games without Brady.

Brisett is better than Cassell and they money spent on even better defensive players would make up for the offense.

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1 hour ago, kiwifalcon said:

This there’s so much dumb written in this thread I’ve taken 7 pages to enter it.There are alot of the usual suspects commenting about something they no very little about.

You watch some of these donkeys that moan about Julio will tell you how important DEbo and Neal are and in the same sentence talk out the side of there mouths when the mentioned also get paid.

They got zero idea how this works zero idea what team building actually is I’m like what the :bang::doh::shrug:.

You can’t teach the unteachable, can you bro? SMH

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1 hour ago, kiwifalcon said:

I hear this aswell but the fact of the matter is for the business of running the team and making money that’s not the world we live in.

Guys like Daivison just don’t hold the same value as a Julio Ryan Jones x 2 Neal and alike.

Julio as an example puts bums on seats does all the flashy stuff the people pay to see.

Davision types do dirty work and you have to really watch the game to see why his job holds a lot of value.Unfortunately the masses don’t come along and pay to see that.

I agree...it’s a capitalist market so the best make the most.  As they should.  

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1 hour ago, Yo_Lover said:

This. If you can go 11-5 with Matt Cassell I'm convinced he could use Jacoby Brisett and just pour money into one elite WR/TE and the rest into defense and still win rings.

Exactly. Belichick wins with every starter. And that's not us trying to say that Brady isn't good. He's definitely an all time great QB. I just won't say he's the greatest ever. 

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40 minutes ago, JD dirtybird21 said:

Exactly. Belichick wins with every starter. And that's not us trying to say that Brady isn't good. He's definitely an all time great QB. I just won't say he's the greatest ever. 

So who are you starting your franchise with over Brady?

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Just now, FalconsIn2020 said:

So who are you starting your franchise with over Brady?

If I'm starting a franchise, the first thing I'm doing is hiring Belichick. If we aren't playing that game, then I'd personally take Peyton, Rodgers, and Brees over Brady. 

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3 hours ago, JD dirtybird21 said:

It's why I refuse to call Brady the definitive GOAT. He's the luckiest athlete I've ever seen. Nobody has been set up for success like he has. I've had countless arguments with sports fans about this. I love the argument that gets thrown at me of "But that's not what happened....what happened is he WON." So stupid.

This. My favorite point is when you bring up the defenses Brady has benefited from playing opposite of...

2001: 6th in points

2002: 17th in points

2003: 1st in points, 7th in yards

2004: 2nd in points, 9th in yards

2005: 17th in points

2006: 2nd in points, 6th in yards

2007: 4th in points, 4th in yards

2008: 8th in points, 10th in yards

2009: 5th in points

2010: 8th in points

2011: 15th in points

2012: 9th in points

2013: 10th in points

2014: 8th in points

2015: 10th in points, 9th in yards

2016: 1st in points, 8th in yards

2017: 5th in points

2018: 7th in points

In the 18 years since Brady has taken over as starter, he had (or would’ve had in the case of 2008) a top-10 scoring defense in 15 of those 18 years. 15 of 18. That’s 83.3%, simply unheard of.

In those 18 years, he’s had an “elite”, top-5 caliber defense for 7 years. 38.9% of his time as a starter.

In those 18 years, he’s has a defense ranked outside of the top-10 only THRICE and one of those defenses (2011) made it to the Super Bowl because they were 3rd in generating turnovers. But that’s still only 16.7% of his career. 

So in any given season, Brady is statistically far more likely to have a top-10 scoring defense (or even a top-5 defense), than a defense ranked 11th or lower in points. That’s unprecedented.

And he’s never had a scoring defense ranked lower than 17th in his career.

Brady is great, but without Belichick keeping that defense stacked, he would be lucky to have 1 ring.

In their 9 Super Bowl appearances since 2001, the Patriots had a top-5 defense for 5 of them (3-2 record) and a top-10 defense got 8 of them (6-2 record). It’s not that impressive he has 6 Super Bowl rings when you have the benefit of playing with a top-10 defense for 83.3% of your career.

2 hours ago, vel said:

14-15? HeIl no! Lol look at some of those NFC South champs. They would have had trouble with Vick in 04. Trouble with Brees in 06 and 09. Cam in 2015. Falcons in 16. That's just a handful of teams. They're good, but playing Sanchez, Fitzpatrick, and whoever in Miami for the better part of a decade would have netted Matt more division titles.

Oh they did have trouble with Brees, we waxed that *** when they came down here  in 2009. I’d also add in 2011 to that. Our offense averaged 34.2 ppg that year and their defense was giving up 21.4 ppg so something had give. They were 3rd in generating turnovers but we were also 4th in not turning the ball over.

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10 minutes ago, Iron Saint said:

This. My favorite point is when you bring up the defenses Brady has benefited from playing opposite of...

2001: 6th in points

2002: 17th in points

2003: 1st in points, 7th in yards

2004: 2nd in points, 9th in yards

2005: 17th in points

2006: 2nd in points, 6th in yards

2007: 4th in points, 4th in yards

2008: 8th in points, 10th in yards

2009: 5th in points

2010: 8th in points

2011: 15th in points

2012: 9th in points

2013: 10th in points

2014: 8th in points

2015: 10th in points, 9th in yards

2016: 1st in points, 8th in yards

2017: 5th in points

2018: 7th in points

In the 18 years since Brady has taken over as starter, he had (or would’ve had in the case of 2008) a top-10 scoring defense in 15 of those 18 years. 15 of 18. That’s 83.3%, simply unheard of.

In those 18 years, he’s had an “elite”, top-5 caliber defense for 7 years. 38.9% of his time as a starter.

In those 18 years, he’s has a defense ranked outside of the top-10 only THRICE and one of those defenses (2011) made it to the Super Bowl because they were 3rd in generating turnovers. But that’s still only 16.7% of his career. 

So in any given season, Brady is statistically far more likely to have a top-10 scoring defense (or even a top-5 defense), than a defense ranked 11th or lower in points. That’s unprecedented.

And he’s never had a scoring defense ranked lower than 17th in his career.

Brady is great, but without Belichick keeping that defense stacked, he would be lucky to have 1 ring.

In their 9 Super Bowl appearances since 2001, the Patriots had a top-5 defense for 5 of them (3-2 record) and a top-10 defense got 8 of them (6-2 record). It’s not that impressive he has 6 Super Bowl rings when you have the benefit of playing with a top-10 defense for 83.3% of your career.

Oh they did have trouble with Brees, we waxed that *** when they came down here  in 2009. I’d also add in 2011 to that. Our offense averaged 34.2 ppg that year and their defense was giving up 21.4 ppg so something had give. They were 3rd in generating turnovers but we were also 4th in not turning the ball over.

The Brady hate is strong everywhere.  I suspect if he played in NO and won you 6 titles you’d sing a different tune.   

So how many Super Bowls would they have if they played in the NFC South?

Best guess

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This is why Ill take Brady over the field:

 

What about the claim that Mr. Brady is a “system” quarterback? The problem with this argument is that New England’s system has constantly changed, and Mr. Brady has always adapted his game to fit the team’s needs and maximize its advantages. He’s also thrown touchdown passes to more than 70 different players —an NFL record— the vast majority of whom are not, or were not, top-tier offensive weapons. Indeed, apart from Randy Moss, Mr. Brady has never played with a truly elite deep-ball threat.

As for the much-maligned AFC East division, ESPN’s Field Yates recently pointed out that, since 2001, New England has by far the league’s best record against (1) non-division opponents, (2) teams that won their division that season, (3) teams that made the playoffs that season and (4) teams that finished with a winning record that season.

In the end, football is the ultimate team sport, and Tom Brady is, in the words of former Pittsburgh Steeler James Harrison, “the ultimate teammate.” Mr. Harrison spent years trying to sack Mr. Brady as a linebacker. Last season, he came out of retirement to join the Patriots for their final regular-season game and playoff run. Speaking about Mr. Brady on FS1 a few weeks ago, Mr. Harrison said, “I wanted to hate this dude, like, with a passion. I get there and I’m like, ‘Dude, he’s the ultimate teammate.’ ”

That’s been the overwhelming consensus among Mr. Brady’s fellow Patriots ever since he first entered the league. While it’s impossible to quantify the value of his leadership skills, work ethic, humility and generosity, they’re inseparable from the culture New England has built and the success it has achieved.

ADVERTISEMENT
 

“I don’t think I can say enough about how good or cool of a guy he is,” Patriots left tackle Trent Brown told ESPN recently. “That’s cool to me, because he doesn’t have to be that way, like a lot of other superstars out there. But he doesn’t even think of himself as a superstar, which may be why he treats everyone the way he does.”

For all these reasons — and many more — Mr. Brady deserves to be celebrated as one of the greatest leaders and clutch players in the history of North American sports. Super Bowl LIII only made it more obvious. Tom Brady has cemented his status as the GOAT.

Duncan Currie is a writer based in Washington, D.C. This is an excerpt of an essay he wrote for National Review. Copyright 2019 National Review.

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7 minutes ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

The Brady hate is strong everywhere.  I suspect if he played in NO and won you 6 titles you’d sing a different tune.   

So how many Super Bowls would they have if they played in the NFC South?

Best guess

I think people who just have a very strong knowledge for the game just have different perspectives. The lazy argument for Brady is the rings. The objective argument is that it’s not QBs who win championships, teams do. Brady has just never shown me anything, as an individual football player, that makes me think he has completely separated himself from the rest of the leagues history. 

And to answer your hypothetical question, let’s say the Pats swapped places with Tampa Bay and over the last 12 years, had to deal with Brees, Ryan, and Cam, I think they make the playoffs significantly less often. And probably make it to 2 Super Bowls max. 

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25 minutes ago, Iron Saint said:

Oh they did have trouble with Brees, we waxed that *** when they came down here  in 2009. I’d also add in 2011 to that. Our offense averaged 34.2 ppg that year and their defense was giving up 21.4 ppg so something had give. They were 3rd in generating turnovers but we were also 4th in not turning the ball over.

Exactly. Never thought I'd agree with a Saints fan lol but playing yall is a nightmare that he rarely sees, let alone twice. I couldn't imagine Brady in the Superdome on Thanksgiving. 

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6 hours ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

I think Freeman, Rico, Hawely & Reynolds are solid picks.  But I see your point.

I’m talking about us.  We draft better than the Patriots.  What we could do with those extra 10 or 12 top-100 picks is all I care about. In the 2nd/3rd we have taken Oliver, Senat, Debo, Hooper, Collins, Coleman, Hageman, Alford, Peters, Moore, Lofton, Douglass, DeCoud etc.  

 

The more players we can get like that the better off we are

I do agree with this statement, but by not trading some of those 2nd and 3rd rounders we wouldn't have some of the 1st rounders that we do have. Julio wouldn't have been a Falcon, Takk wouldn't be a Falcon, Desmond Trufant may not have ever been a Falcon. Would you really want to give up players like that for extra chances?!

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54 minutes ago, Iron Saint said:

This. My favorite point is when you bring up the defenses Brady has benefited from playing opposite of...

2001: 6th in points

2002: 17th in points

2003: 1st in points, 7th in yards

2004: 2nd in points, 9th in yards

2005: 17th in points

2006: 2nd in points, 6th in yards

2007: 4th in points, 4th in yards

2008: 8th in points, 10th in yards

2009: 5th in points

2010: 8th in points

2011: 15th in points

2012: 9th in points

2013: 10th in points

2014: 8th in points

2015: 10th in points, 9th in yards

2016: 1st in points, 8th in yards

2017: 5th in points

2018: 7th in points

 

Patriots defense DVOA

2018: 16th

2017:  31st

2016:  16th

2015:  12th

2014:  12th

2013:  20th

2012:  16th

2011:  30th

2010:  21st

2009:  14th

2008:  17th

2007:  24th

2006:  7th

2005:  27th

2004:  7th

2003:  2nd

2002:  14th

2001:  13th

This isn’t world beating defense

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18 minutes ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

Patriots defense DVOA

2018: 16th

2017:  31st

2016:  16th

2015:  12th

2014:  12th

2013:  20th

2012:  16th

2011:  30th

2010:  21st

2009:  14th

2008:  17th

2007:  24th

2006:  7th

2005:  27th

2004:  7th

2003:  2nd

2002:  14th

2001:  13th

This isn’t world beating defense

Another thing to consider is Brady’s best season, by far, is 2007, and he LOST the SB. But he was clearly the best player in the NFL that season. Just because Eli won the ring doesn’t make him the better player over Brady. Just like when Brady won his first ring in 2001, that didn’t make him better than Warner, who (at that time) was clearly the best QB in the league that season 

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@FalconsIn2020, @vel, @Iron Saint

Check out this thread I made 5 years ago. I put together this write up for the reason of the exact discussion we are having. I wrote it just before the SB of the Broncos and Seahawks. Keep in mind that this is from 2014. Lol. Also, enjoy the comments in the thread from some of TATF’s finest...

 

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2 minutes ago, JD dirtybird21 said:

@FalconsIn2020, @vel, @Iron Saint

Check out this thread I made 5 years ago. I put together this write up for the reason of the exact discussion we are having. Keep in mind that this is from 2014. Lol. Also, enjoy the comments in the thread from some of TATF’s finest...

 

I remember this one. Get it out of the archive and bump it

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10 minutes ago, JD dirtybird21 said:

@FalconsIn2020, @vel, @Iron Saint

Check out this thread I made 5 years ago. I put together this write up for the reason of the exact discussion we are having. I wrote it just before the SB of the Broncos and Seahawks. Keep in mind that this is from 2014. Lol. Also, enjoy the comments in the thread from some of TATF’s finest...

 

Good stuff.  Mr Right and Swift in their most natural form in that thread...lol 

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8 minutes ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

Good stuff.  Mr Right and Swift in their most natural form in that thread...lol 

Oh yea man. 2 things triggered me to write that. The Brady and Peyton comparisons and those 2 ignorant posters 

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

The Brady hate is strong everywhere.  I suspect if he played in NO and won you 6 titles you’d sing a different tune.   

So how many Super Bowls would they have if they played in the NFC South?

Best guess

It’s not Brady hate, I already said in my other post that I think he’s an all-time great, but like JD, am very hesitant to give him the unquestionable #1 spot.

Rings is the laziest argument. Charles Haley is not the greatest DE/OLB of all time even though he has more rings than LT. Bill Russell is not the GOAT in basketball even though his 11 rings are nearly twice as many as Jordan. Brady and all the others in the discussion of “GOAT” have absolutely zero control over their defenses. Brady has been privileged to be with a head coach that has an uncanny ability to continuously churn out top notch defenses.

However if Brady played in New Orleans and won 6 rings with a defense that had an average ranking of 20th/21st in points and has finished top-10 in points only 3 times (and top-5 only once) in those same 18 years, he would be the unquestioned GOAT. That goes for any QB, not just Brady.

We’ve had 10 years since 2001 where our defense has finished 25th or lower in points (2001, 2004, 2005, 2007, 2008, 2012, 2014, 2015, 2016). 3 of those years we finished second-to-last (2012 and 2016) or dead last (2015) in points. You’re telling me Brady is going to do more here with that than Brees has? He’d be lucky to have made the playoffs 10 times in that 2001-2018 span in this division.

Honestly, I don’t even think he wins one here in New Orleans because the year we did win ours, we were 20th in points.

Think about it, Brady has played with twice as many top-5 defenses in his career than we’ve had top-10 defenses in that span.

1 hour ago, vel said:

Exactly. Never thought I'd agree with a Saints fan lol but playing yall is a nightmare that he rarely sees, let alone twice. I couldn't imagine Brady in the Superdome on Thanksgiving. 

Ayeee! :tiphat:

And indeed, in the Payton Era, we’ve played them 3 times: we waxed tf out of them in 2009, had them beaten in Foxborough in 2013 until that horse**** chokehold on the final play, and were finally beaten outright in 2017 (albeit was early in the season and our defense was still finding its footing).

47 minutes ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

Patriots defense DVOA

2018: 16th

2017:  31st

2016:  16th

2015:  12th

2014:  12th

2013:  20th

2012:  16th

2011:  30th

2010:  21st

2009:  14th

2008:  17th

This isn’t world beating defense

DVOA is nice, but points is what wins and loses games and the Patriots’ defense have consistently been elite to above average in preventing opponents from scoring.

Edited by Iron Saint

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4 minutes ago, Iron Saint said:

It’s not Brady hate, I already said in my other post that I think he’s an all-time great, but like JD, am very hesitant to give him the unquestionable #1 spot.

Rings is the laziest argument. Charles Haley is not the greatest DE/OLB of all time even though he has more rings than LT. Bill Russell is not the GOAT in basketball even though his 11 rings are nearly twice as many as Jordan. Brady and all the others in the discussion of “GOAT” have absolutely zero control over their defenses. Brady has been privileged to be with a head coach that has an uncanny ability 

However if Brady played in New Orleans and won 6 rings with a defense that had an average ranking of 20th/21st in points and has finished top-10 in points only 3 times (and top-5 only once) in those same 18 years, he would be the unquestioned GOAT. That goes for any QB, not just Brady.

We’ve had 10 years since 2001 where our defense has finished 25th or lower in points (2001, 2004, 2005, 2007, 2008, 2012, 2014, 2015, 2016). 3 of those years we finished second-to-last (2012 and 2016) or dead last (2015) in points. You’re telling me Brady is going to do more here with that than Brees has? He’d be lucky to have made the playoffs 10 times in that 2001-2018 span in this division.

Honestly, I don’t even think he wins one here in New Orleans because the year we did win ours, we were 20th in points.

Think about it, Brady has played with twice as many top-5 defenses in his career than we’ve had top-10 defenses in that span.

Ayeee! :tiphat:

And indeed, in the Payton Era, we’ve played them 3 times: we waxed tf out of them in 2009, had them beaten in Foxborough in 2013 until that horse**** chokehold on the final play, and were finally beaten outright in 2017 (albeit was early in the season and our defense was still finding its footing).

DVOA is nice, but points is what wins and loses games and the Patriots’ defense have consistently been elite to above average in preventing opponents from scoring.

I agree.  I’m a points guy, too.  But when I support Manuel by saying his defense was 8th in points allowed in his 1 true year as DC, they point to DVOA and say he stinks.

I finally get to use DVOA so I’m doing it.  But it’s a weak argument.  Points are all I care about...then yards for metrics.

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1 minute ago, FalconsIn2020 said:

I agree.  I’m a points guy, too.  But when I support Manuel by saying he was 8th in points allowed in his 1 true year as DC, they point to DVOA and say he stinks 

If the sample size is small enough, I think DVOA is a better indicator of what you’re seeing. However when you have a sample size of 18 years of a defense that is absolutely stingy in 15 of those 18, those PPG numbers pretty much hit it on the nose.

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7 hours ago, Vandy said:

You can’t teach the unteachable, can you bro? SMH

Unfortunately not the whole money thing I find perplexing.

I mean the issue with it stems from drafting well and too me that’s what we want to continue to do that well and it just continues to keep the door open for us.

So if we have to pay player w x y z $$$$$$$ who cares if we do the above well it replenishes itself and we keep rolling.

So for me the cap and money I’m not worried about but if we don’t do the above well in the draft then the cap and money become an issue.

So I’d be worried about that than Julio Jarrett DEbo Neal and co getting there money.

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14 hours ago, JD dirtybird21 said:

@FalconsIn2020, @vel, @Iron Saint

Check out this thread I made 5 years ago. I put together this write up for the reason of the exact discussion we are having. I wrote it just before the SB of the Broncos and Seahawks. Keep in mind that this is from 2014. Lol. Also, enjoy the comments in the thread from some of TATF’s finest...

 

Valid and it's funny that you called it outright what would happen in that SB. Easy to see now, but you were dead on before hand. 

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58 minutes ago, vel said:

Valid and it's funny that you called it outright what would happen in that SB. Easy to see now, but you were dead on before hand. 

Yea. That SB outcome really helped in proving my theory lol. And I’ve always felt that Brady was the guy on the better team, but not necessarily the better QB in almost all of his SB wins. And in his losses, he is definitely the better QB, but completely outmatched by the better team. The Eagles with Foles is another classic example 

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