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Ovie_Lover

ESPN: Pass blocking matters more than pass rushing

42 posts in this topic

Article pretty much sums up my point about us getting enough sacks to win the Super Bowl,  but desperately needing to protect our QB like the Patriots and Saints do, thus focusing on fixing OL over DL makes sense, since the OL were there.

Our defense had more sacks in each of the last 3 years than the Super Bowl winners did those years. Our OL also gave up monumentally more QB hits than the Super Bowl winning OL did. For instance,  last year Ryan got hit 108 times and Super Bowl winning QB hit only 23 times.

I am thrilled to finally be able to put a real OL in front of Ryan that has the size and strength to manhandle DLs in short yardage, hold a pocket for Ryan to be able to step up into and dump ball off when pressure is coming off edges, and take over a game by running the ball down the throat of a defense when we need it to.

 

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44 minutes ago, Yo_Lover said:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/26888038/pass-blocking-matters-more-pass-rushing-prove-it

On mobile so I can't copy and paste it all here but I thought @gazoo would love this.

@Falconsin2012 will like it too since I know you value secondary over pass rush.

I like em both.  But in today’s NFL I may place a slightly greater premium on secondary assets.

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Posted (edited)

25 minutes ago, Yo_Lover said:

This was such an impressive and well written arti...

just to play devil's advocate

 

Good find,  Seems that the data is severely flawed. 

Unfortunately, this is par for the course with football "analytics"; they're still decades behind baseball analytics and due the nature of the game, may never be as robust or predictive.

Edited by JeffAtl
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47 minutes ago, Yo_Lover said:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/26888038/pass-blocking-matters-more-pass-rushing-prove-it

On mobile so I can't copy and paste it all here but I thought @gazoo would love this.

@Falconsin2012 will like it too since I know you value secondary over pass rush.

That’s a pretty interesting article, Yo.  Nice find. So I guess it really was wise to double dip on OL this year.

Still wish Carpenter & Ty’s money went to the defense though

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42 minutes ago, gazoo said:

Article pretty much sums up my point about us getting enough sacks to win the Super Bowl,  but desperately needing to protect our QB like the Patriots and Saints do, thus focusing on fixing OL over DL makes sense, since the OL were there.

We had more sacks in each of the last 3 years than the Super Bowl winners did those years. Our OL also gave up monumentally more QB hits than the Super Bowl winners. 

I am thrilled to finally be able to put a real OL in front of Ryan that has the size and strength to manhandle DLs in short yardage, hold a pocket for Ryan to be able to step up into and dump ball off when pressure is coming off edges, and take over a game by running the ball down the throat of a defense when we need it to.

 

Even some of the more fanatical saints haters have conceded that their interior OL has been very good in the past, without that I'm not sure there would be a whole lot of the "Brees>Ryan and pretty much everyone else also" type of thinking amongst NFL fans.

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15 minutes ago, LongLiveNito said:

Even some of the more fanatical saints haters have conceded that their interior OL has been very good in the past, without that I'm not sure there would be a whole lot of the "Brees>Ryan and pretty much everyone else also" type of thinking amongst NFL fans.

This is the critical piece. Brady and Brees have almost always had a good interior OL to hold a pocket. Ryan is the exception, where he’s had pretty good OT many years, but the interior has been terrible.

The OGs are the anchors  largely responsible for holding a pocket for their QB, that’s where we’ve had the biggest issues. Ryan’s pocket was constantly collapsing back into his feet to where he wasn’t able to step up and dump ball off. Instead, he was constantly flushed out of the pocket, sometimes immediately after the snap, a getting the snot beat out of him. 

Lindstrom didn’t give up a single sack his senior year. He’s outstanding in pass protection and Mack isn’t going to have to babysit him in passing situations. And no one is going to push McGary around like the were Shraeder. 

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6 minutes ago, Atl Falcon said:

Sack the QB something we’ve been missing for quite while or most of the TD era.

We’ve gotten more sacks in the past 3 years than the Super Bowl winner of that year.   Our QB has gotten hit close to 3 times as many times as the Super Bowl winners. 

Assuming you would rather win a Super Bowl than have more sacks that the Super Bowl winner, I’ll let you draw your own conclusions with the above data.

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10 minutes ago, gazoo said:

This is the critical piece. Brady and Brees have almost always had a good interior OL to hold a pocket. Ryan is the exception, where he’s had pretty good OT many years, but the interior has been terrible.

The OGs are largely responsible for holding a pocket for their QB, that’s where we’ve had the biggest issues. Ryan’s pocket was constantly collapsing back into his feet to where he wasn’t able to step up and dump ball off. Instead, he was constantly flushed out of the pocket, sometimes immediately after the snap, a getting the snot beat out of him. 

Lindstrom didn’t give up a single sack his senior year. He’s outstanding in pass protection and Mack isn’t going to have to babysit him in passing situations. And no one is going to push McGary around like the were Shraeder. 

To be fair, a lot of those plays over the last 3 years are designed moving pockets & rollouts or bootlegs.  Ryan is amongst the best quarterbacks in the NFL throwing on the run.  So Shanny used that skill which is important in this WCO/hybrid scheme.

As bad as everyone says the OL’s have been for Ryan, they are even worse around the NFL.  

Granted its PFF so nobody will give it credence, but still: End of Season Rank OL

2018: 13th

2017: 2nd

2016: 5th

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Falcons had a higher pass rush win rate than one would think.  Hmmm. Interesting article. Hopefully the offensive line full of first rounders helps us win a Lombardi. 

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14 minutes ago, Falconsin2012 said:

To be fair, a lot of those plays over the last 3 years are designed moving pockets & rollouts or bootlegs.  Ryan is amongst the best quarterbacks in the NFL throwing on the run.  So Shanny used that skill which is important in this WCO/hybrid scheme.

As bad as everyone says the OL’s have been for Ryan, they are worse around the NFL.  

Granted its PFF so nobody will give it credence, but still: End of Season Rank

2018: 13th

2017: 2nd

2016: 5th

This is not to be argumentative, because your point about designed moving pockets and rollouts is correct.

But they were designed to cover up our OLs inability to hold a pocket. This was Shanny’s brilliance, he knew how to design plays around weaknesses of our players and especially how to exploit weaknesses of defenses.

We all have watched for years, Drew Brees drop back in passing situations, our edge rushers get good get off at the LOS and bring heat, only to have Brees merely step forward and dump the ball off a half second before we get to him. Over and over and over and over, especially on 3rd downs. It’s beyond frustrating.

We’ve also watched, for years, Ryan drop back in passing situations and have defenders in his face or collapsing the pocket almost immediately forcing him to escape the safety of a pocket, often getting pounded on.

Now, Ryan isn’t going to have to escape the pocket and put himself at risk.

Last years Super Bowl winning QB got hit 23 times, Ryan got hit 108 times. 

Last years Super Bowl winning defense had 30 sacks, the Falcons had 37 sacks.

This year I expect more sacks out of all those pressures based on DQ taking back over and Clayborn coming back

 

 

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28 minutes ago, gazoo said:

This is the critical piece. Brady and Brees have almost always had a good interior OL to hold a pocket. Ryan is the exception, where he’s had pretty good OT many years, but the interior has been terrible.

The OGs are the anchors  largely responsible for holding a pocket for their QB, that’s where we’ve had the biggest issues. Ryan’s pocket was constantly collapsing back into his feet to where he wasn’t able to step up and dump ball off. Instead, he was constantly flushed out of the pocket, sometimes immediately after the snap, a getting the snot beat out of him. 

Lindstrom didn’t give up a single sack his senior year. He’s outstanding in pass protection and Mack isn’t going to have to babysit him in passing situations. And no one is going to push McGary around like the were Shraeder. 

Maybe this is an age thing, but I can't remember the last good OG we drafted since Justin Blalock. If I remember right, that was back in the EARLY Smitty days...pretty sure before TD even got here. Like you, I'm glad he went after OL hard, and people have been beating that drum here for awhile...a bit of bad luck on timing in terms of it being a good DL draft where we could use some help as well, but nothing we can really do about that.

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7 minutes ago, LongLiveNito said:

Maybe this is an age thing, but I can't remember the last good OG we drafted since Justin Blalock. If I remember right, that was back in the EARLY Smitty days...pretty sure before TD even got here. Like you, I'm glad he went after OL hard, and people have been beating that drum here for awhile...a bit of bad luck on timing in terms of it being a good DL draft where we could use some help as well, but nothing we can really do about that.

We have clearly opted for FA to fill out our OL over the years. And until last year it’s worked brilliantly (sans 2013/2014).  Levitre was a great OG, and Harvey & Dahl were both really solid.  Chester was slightly above average

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8 minutes ago, LongLiveNito said:

Maybe this is an age thing, but I can't remember the last good OG we drafted since Justin Blalock. If I remember right, that was back in the EARLY Smitty days...pretty sure before TD even got here. Like you, I'm glad he went after OL hard, and people have been beating that drum here for awhile...a bit of bad luck on timing in terms of it being a good DL draft where we could use some help as well, but nothing we can really do about that.

I know a lot of the newer fans love to watch the highlight reels with adrenaline charged sacks. 

But I want to win a Super Bowl, and my question is, what’s the best way with limited resources? Some seem to think it’s more sacks. I am of the opinion it’s fixing this God forsaken OL once and for all!

I know the Eagles Offensive Line was voted OL of the year in 2017 when they won the Super Bowl. I know Falcons defense had more sacks in 2017 than the Eagles and lost to them in Playoffs. 

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Just now, gazoo said:

I know a lot of the newer fans love to watch the highlight reels with adrenaline charged sacks. 

But I want to win a Super Bowl, and my question is, what’s the best way with limited resources?

I know the Eagles Offensive Line was voted OL of the year in 2017 when they won the Super Bowl. I know Falcons defense had more sacks in 2017 than the Eagles and lost to them in Playoffs. 

Right? Dam kids.

The other thing is, a good OL protects your defense by keeping them fresh - if that's the case, you don't really need much more than an average pass rush IMO.

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36 minutes ago, LongLiveNito said:

Right? Dam kids.

The other thing is, a good OL protects your defense by keeping them fresh - if that's the case, you don't really need much more than an average pass rush IMO.

Indeed. Many fans don’t realize all it takes is a single missed tackle by a tired defender leading to a 35 yard run each game to knock your defense out of top 10 and down 15 slots or more in stats like yards per rush and total rushing yards per game.

All it takes is one fatigued CB to give up a long TD pass every other game to knock your defense out of top 10 and down several slots in points allowed, passing yards and yards per catch.

Fatigued defenders make more mental mistakes that can lead to big plays. They can also lead to more penalties. 

Absolutely a dominant OL that can step up and take a game over when needed is a really big deal. If your defense has been on the field too long and needs a breather, if your OL can play smash mouth football for a long drive with a bigger RB like we drafted,  it gives your defense that much needed break, keeps them fresh and sharp.

Ryan has never had an OL capable of taking over a game and abusing a defense. Our 2012 was full of blue collar tough guys but not super athletic.

This year Ryan, for the first time ever, has serious talent, infused with youth, size, mass, strength and athleticism. This OL should be able to blow DLs off the ball when it wants. More importantly it should be able to anchor and hold a pocket for Ryan even when the defense knows we are going to pass.

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Seems to me you'd have to have a certain baseline of both to win. Looks like all four of the championship game teams from last year were at least in the 70th percentile of both stats.

 

Also would like more well defined  parameters that they're using for pass rush win . If you get to Ryan or Brees or Brady in 2.5 seconds, and they got rid of the ball .5 seconds ago, that's not necessarily a win. 

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