Jpowers

Not the new Donald Trump Presidency thread

26,327 posts in this topic

1 minute ago, achilles return said:

there are a plethora of universal health care systems across the industrialized world, and they are better in nearly every metric than our existing system. your response to this is that we should switch to something that literally does not exist anywhere on the planet, sight unseen, rather than adopt any one of the existing choices that prioritizes access to care regardless of the ability of pay for it. why should we? for the sake of your ideological indoctrination? if we care about results, there is no reason to adopt anything other than universal health care.

It's not that he wants to switch to something that doesn't exist. What he wants is to switch to something that already existed and failed across the developed world.

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2 minutes ago, Gritzblitz 2.0 said:

So when the next Democrat becomes president, will you be ok with people telling you to "Love it, or leave it" when you criticize that president? 

I mean, he DID try to leave the country because Obama was reelected but his boss wouldn’t let him.  

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1 minute ago, Psychic Gibbon said:

It's not that he wants to switch to something that doesn't exist. What he wants is to switch to something that already existed and failed across the developed world.

I still don't know what you mean by "failed".

Capitalism has never failed when it's done correctly.  Ie....no monopolies...etc...

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Just now, The Legendary SB said:

I still don't know what you mean by "failed".

Capitalism has never failed when it's done correctly.  Ie....no monopolies...etc...

If you can name a capitalist system that didn't have monopolies then I'll give you a cookie.

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3 minutes ago, Gritzblitz 2.0 said:

So when the next Democrat becomes president, will you be ok with people telling you to "Love it, or leave it" when you criticize that president? 

Like Obama said, elections ha very consequences. So the answer would be yes. 

I went about my business hoping for good policy, but it didn't happen. I just lumped it waiting for Trump to be elected 

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Just now, The Legendary SB said:

I'm not talking about whether you like the president or not.  Bigger picture than that.

I'm saying that if you love communism you should move to a communist country.

If you love having all drugs legal move to Amsterdam.

You have choices for this kind of stuff...

What if you have a problem with the way minorities or immigrants are treated? Is it "love it or leave it" then.

What if you want criminal justice reform? Or an overhaul of the healthcare system, or infrastructure? What if one wants us to stop meddling in the affairs of other nations? Where is the threshold where one can be told to "love it or leave it"?

Fifty years ago, people who opposed Vietnam were told "love it or leave it". And history has vindicated those people. 

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Posted (edited)

13 minutes ago, The Legendary SB said:

End of discussion, this is a load of horse crap.  

Capitalism is the most successful economic system in the history of planet earth but people don't want to use it for the biggest industry in the country.

Ridiculous.  

Lol ok chief. Go ahead and point out one capitalist healthcare system which has lower costs and better outcomes than the socialist ones of Europe and Canada. 

American Exceptionalism really did a number on a whole generation of people. Has dudes ignoring all empirical evidence and statistics to support a failing healthcare system. I'm all for capitalism in most industries but healthcare by definition is one in which it won't work. The only way it will is if we allow those who can't afford it to die. But you're too much of a ***** to concede that you'd be cool with that.

Edited by bdog 29

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13 minutes ago, The Legendary SB said:

End of discussion, this is a load of horse crap.  

Capitalism is the most successful economic system in the history of planet earth but people don't want to use it for the biggest industry in the country.

Ridiculous.  

Just bring up South Korea or West Germany as examples and they have no answers.

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Just now, Psychic Gibbon said:

If you can name a capitalist system that didn't have monopolies then I'll give you a cookie.

I can name markets where there are not monopolies.  Any market that has at least 5 choices for consumers.  Those markets are by and large very healthy.  Ie....technology has advanced and costs have dropped.

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Just now, The Legendary SB said:

I can name markets where there are not monopolies.  Any market that has at least 5 choices for consumers.  Those markets are by and large very healthy.  Ie....technology has advanced and costs have dropped.

You're talking about the system and how it is impossible for monopolies to develop under a capitalist system. Please name one where monopolies did not develop.

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11 minutes ago, bdog 29 said:

Stop with the hyperbole. It's clown **** and makes you look like you don't have a real argument. No one in Canada or Scandinavia is waiting months or years for an MRI. Maybe a few weeks but if I needed an MRI right now, my doctor's office probably wouldn't have an opening anyway.

What isn't hyperbole is that Americans are paying hundreds of dollars for routine procedures and people are going into bankruptcy because of medical bills. Policies have made it worse but the crux of the issue is a for-profit healthcare system. Everyone who knows anything about healthcare policy knows that single payer is the best option. The only question is how we get there. 

The only people who disagree are those who haven't thought about the issue for more than two seconds and think capitalism=America=good.

basically he's accepted and internalized the axiom that medically-trained triage is somehow a worst determiner for care than money, for no other reason than ideology.

he assumes the "free market" will just solve health care absent of any societal intervention, and that when the market tosses out the indigent charities will magically be able to pick up the slack. 

the bottom line is that the market doesn't care how many people it covers. it doesn't care about the quality of coverage, and it doesn't care about people unable to participate in the market. capital cares about nothing but profit, and it fundamentally will not be able to produce the same quality of care to all people as a public system designed to deliver health care to all people regardless of income or wealth.

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1 minute ago, WhenFalconsWin said:

Just bring up South Korea or West Germany as examples and they have no answers.

Can we have the government programs and social welfare those countries have?

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3 minutes ago, The Legendary SB said:

I can name markets where there are not monopolies.  Any market that has at least 5 choices for consumers.  Those markets are by and large very healthy.  Ie....technology has advanced and costs have dropped.

 

2 minutes ago, Psychic Gibbon said:

You're talking about the system and how it is impossible for monopolies to develop under a capitalist system. 

Monopolies should be broken up.

If they are not than it's not a true capitalist system.  

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15 minutes ago, The Legendary SB said:

It's true.

Just like my speech about being good consumers. 

If you don't like what this country stands for go somewhere that fits your ideals more.  You have a choice.  Use it.

my choice is to fight to make my country better for all of its people.

socialism or barbarism.

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Just now, The Legendary SB said:

 

Monopolies should be broken up.

If they are not than it's not a true capitalist system.  

Please name a true capitalist system where monopolies didn't develop.

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Just now, Psychic Gibbon said:

Can we have the government programs and social welfare those countries have?

While you're at it the populations too. I mean considering your policies you would have gladly chosen to live in NoKo and East Germany.

To that, I would have to disagree with you.

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Just now, The Legendary SB said:

Pushing Your Windows App to the Top â User Camp â Medium

I said that because by-and-large minorities don't believe in American Exceptionalism. America to us has never been exceptional and it still isn't.

But I took that out because I figured it was inflammatory and would let you miss the whole point of my post. And lo and behold, that's where we ended up. I blame myself.

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1 minute ago, achilles return said:

my choice is to fight to make my country better for all of its people.

socialism or barbarism.

"America will never be a socialist country"
- Donald Trump

 

Pack your bags.

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Just now, Gritzblitz 2.0 said:

In short, "love it or leave it" is about the sh*ttiest thing a citizen of a free democracy can say to another. 

Also, Trump didn’t say “love it or leave it’.  He originally said “go back to where you came from” to US citizens, which has even deeper racist roots than “love it or leave it”.  

We can’t let the right get by with shifting what he actually said.

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1 hour ago, The Legendary SB said:

You cannot go fully out of pocket right away as costs are currently insane.

If it were up to me my goal would be:

1. Make insurance only for catastrophic health issues.  Ie...multiple day hospital stay or bad car accident or something.

2. Since it is only for "catastrophic" health issues, premiums are much lower.

3. All outpatient services are out of pocket.  Ie...people would shop for doctors for check ups and minor procedures.  

You just described Singapore's system roughly. 

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