Jpowers

Not the new Donald Trump Presidency thread

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25 minutes ago, HolyMoses said:

@Billy Ocean My memory is nowhere as impressive as yours, but I do remember  that you posted about Ukrainian anti-Semitism as justification for the Russian military invasion of Crimea. (which you recently referred to as a “referendum” by a Crimea followed by an “annexation”)

What is your opinion regarding the  current and best evidence that the articles you posted were part of a Russian disinformation campaign? 

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/08/02/russian-disinformation-distorted-reality-in-ukraine-americans-should-take-note-putin-mueller-elections-antisemitism/

 Do you reject that assertion? On what basis? If you now recognize that what you posted was,  in fact, Russian propaganda, what do you have to say for yourself? 

Please reply substantively and refrain from a personal attack.

IIRC, it wasn't justification for Russia's takeover of Crimea but rather as evidence of why we should not arm and support Ukraine. Likewise, it wasn't that all of the Ukrainian government was run by neo-Nazis but rather their willingness to incorporate neo-Nazis to get fresh troops which should have been enough of a sign to not get cozy with them. The most prominent example of that would be the Azov Battalion being incorporated into the Ukrainian military, which the article mentions. They have the symbol of the Ukrainian collaborators on their badge ffs.

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4 minutes ago, mdrake34 said:

 

Well that sure as **** provides critical National Security.  

FFS . . . Anything he says about any communication with any foreign government is now subject to impeachment.

Thanks, Obama.

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1 minute ago, HolyMoses said:

Well that sure as **** provides critical National Security.  

FFS . . . Anything he says about any communication with any foreign government is now subject to impeachment.

Thanks, Obama.

I honestly don’t know why anyone would trust anything Trump or his spokespeople say.  The ridiculous thing here is that people actually believed Trump.

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23 minutes ago, mdrake34 said:

I've had to chastise thofin on numerous occasions for posting some truly mean-spirited things.  He's another person whose brain has been absolutely melted by Trump.

Oh, there's plenty more on here.

Waiting with bells on for the Signing of Matt Money Bryant...

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11 minutes ago, HolyMoses said:

Well that sure as **** provides critical National Security.  

FFS . . . Anything he says about any communication with any foreign government is now subject to impeachment.

Thanks, Obama.

:flush: You and other's like you can impeach him in the 2020 general (not happening). Or as I like to say, what are you going to do with 4 more years of Trump. I guess ride the good wave?

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42 minutes ago, Psychic Gibbon said:

IIRC, it wasn't justification for Russia's takeover of Crimea but rather as evidence of why we should not arm and support Ukraine. Likewise, it wasn't that all of the Ukrainian government was run by neo-Nazis but rather their willingness to incorporate neo-Nazis to get fresh troops which should have been enough of a sign to not get cozy with them. The most prominent example of that would be the Azov Battalion being incorporated into the Ukrainian military, which the article mentions. They have the symbol of the Ukrainian collaborators on their badge ffs.

So we wasn't spreading Russian Propaganda on this Board?

Or "he was but it was just part of a bigger picture"?

Or that and "we do it too"?

Because I remember reading that and being pretty concerned and conflicted.  Although I might have actually called him on the disinformation stuff then, too.  I wish my memory was better about this stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum

In April 2014, a leaflet was handed out to the Jewish community in the city Donetsk as if by the pro-Russian separatists who had taken over control of the city. The leaflet contained an order to every Jew over the age of 16 to register as a Jew, and also to declare all the property they own, or else have their citizenship revoked, face deportation and see their assets confiscated, ostensibly as retribution for being Ukrainian loyalists.[35] Denis Pushilin, head of the pro-Russian separatist Donetsk People's Republic, said it was a fake that was meant to discredit his movement. Donetsk Chief Rabbi Pinchas Vishedski also claims it was a hoax, and said that "Anti-Semitic incidents in the Russian-speaking east were rare, unlike in Kiev and western Ukraine".[36] An April 2014 listing of anti-Jewish violence in Ukraine in Haaretz no incidents outside this "Russian-speaking east" were mentioned.[37]

There were also cases of exploitation of anti-Semitism and “the Jewish question” in propaganda campaigns, such as speculations used by the administration of President Viktor Yanukovych in the first (November 2013) days of the Euromaidan mass protests.[23] The conclusion of the (earlier mentioned) National Minority Rights Monitoring Group report describes a peak of antisemitic incidents in 2014, probably due to the instabilily in Ukraine.[23] In March 2014, Yaakov Bleich, the Chief Rabbi of Ukraine, accused Russian sympathizers and nationalists of staging antisemitic provocations to be blamed on Ukrainians. He claimed that these provocations were used by the Russian Federation to justify the its 2014 invasion of Crimea.[38]

Putin’s War

 

How Russian aggression decimated Jewish life in eastern Ukraine

However, despite a Russian propaganda campaign warning about the rise of Ukrainian fascism, the real threat to the country’s Jews came not from domestic ultranationalists or anti-Semites but rather from Russia itself. In April 2014, Russian-backed separatist fighters declared a People’s Republic in the city of Donetsk near the Russian border, setting off a war that still rages to this day.

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1 minute ago, WhenFalconsWin said:

:flush: You and other's like you can impeach him in the 2020 general (not happening). Or as I like to say, what are you going to do with 4 more years of Trump. I guess ride the good wave?

I meant "impeachment" in the technical legal sense.  As in his credibility will be impeached.

Fair interpretation.  Sorry about the ambiguity.

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1 minute ago, HolyMoses said:

I meant "impeachment" in the technical legal sense.  As in his credibility will be impeached.

Fair interpretation.  Sorry about the ambiguity.

Okay, that's fair. But my offer still stands. People can "impeach Trump" through their votes. That's a technical impeachment and achieves the results many on the left are looking for. 

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Just now, mdrake34 said:

You can smell your own, eh?

Did I tell you the time I got several alligators while fishing? Several times. one as long as 5 feet, I have a lot of skill taking dangerous fish off the hook. Alligators are no different in the sense you have to be careful with their business ends. It is just caution, I'm not an alligator hunter, but I know my way around removing things from hooks. 

I have an interesting story about a baby alligator I caught in Florida, it called it's mother to my boat. But that is a story for another day.

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41 minutes ago, mdrake34 said:

I've had to chastise thofin on numerous occasions for posting some truly mean-spirited things.  He's another person whose brain has been absolutely melted by Trump.

:tiphat:

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13 minutes ago, HolyMoses said:

So we wasn't spreading Russian Propaganda on this Board?

Or "he was but it was just part of a bigger picture"?

Or that and "we do it too"?

Because I remember reading that and being pretty concerned and conflicted.  Although I might have actually called him on the disinformation stuff then, too.  I wish my memory was better about this stuff.

Putin’s War

 

How Russian aggression decimated Jewish life in eastern Ukraine

However, despite a Russian propaganda campaign warning about the rise of Ukrainian fascism, the real threat to the country’s Jews came not from domestic ultranationalists or anti-Semites but rather from Russia itself. In April 2014, Russian-backed separatist fighters declared a People’s Republic in the city of Donetsk near the Russian border, setting off a war that still rages to this day.

I mean, we’ve all seen An American Tail.

th?id=OIP.uSA44fPfgQhIgxJasGIuggHaFc%26p

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10 minutes ago, HolyMoses said:

So we wasn't spreading Russian Propaganda on this Board?

Or "he was but it was just part of a bigger picture"?

Or that and "we do it too"?

Because I remember reading that and being pretty concerned and conflicted.  Although I might have actually called him on the disinformation stuff then, too.  I wish my memory was better about this stuff.

Putin’s War

 

How Russian aggression decimated Jewish life in eastern Ukraine

However, despite a Russian propaganda campaign warning about the rise of Ukrainian fascism, the real threat to the country’s Jews came not from domestic ultranationalists or anti-Semites but rather from Russia itself. In April 2014, Russian-backed separatist fighters declared a People’s Republic in the city of Donetsk near the Russian border, setting off a war that still rages to this day.

It seems like they're war refugees, not specifically targeted. It's extremely unfortunate and Russia should be condemned for propping it up but I wouldn't equate that with state sanctioned neo-Nazi military units.

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11 minutes ago, WhenFalconsWin said:

thofin asked me to chastise him, but I rarely deal with alts. 

You know nothing 

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12 minutes ago, Psychic Gibbon said:

It seems like they're war refugees, not specifically targeted. It's extremely unfortunate and Russia should be condemned for propping it up but I wouldn't equate that with state sanctioned neo-Nazi military units.

But any "state sanctioned new nazi military units were OUT OF THE PICTURE when Russian engaged their disinformation campaign.  Isn't it disingenuous for you to keep bringing that up?  

 

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10 minutes ago, HolyMoses said:

But any "state sanctioned new nazi military units were OUT OF THE PICTURE when Russian engaged their disinformation campaign.  Isn't it disingenuous for you to keep bringing that up?  

 

No, because those units were formed from key groups within the protests in 2013-14.

Again, not to say all of them were neo-Nazis, but the neo-Nazis were prominent within them. There's a reason why when McCain went to Ukraine to gin up American support for them he "inadvertently" met with leaders of such groups. It's not like they popped up from thin air.

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3 minutes ago, Psychic Gibbon said:

No, because those units were formed from key groups within the protests in 2013-14.

Again, not to say all of them were neo-Nazis, but the neo-Nazis were prominent within them. There's a reason why when McCain went to Ukraine to gin up American support for them he "inadvertently" met with leaders of such groups. It's not like they popped up from thin air.

It sounds that is exactly what RUssia was doing:  propping them up, paying them . . . there might have been a presence (there are always "lone wolfes" but they were NOT a THREAT.  Russian amplified them paid them, and CREATED the image of a threat.  

And BO helped.

Sounds like you are defending this crap.

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Just now, HolyMoses said:

It sounds that is exactly what RUssia was doing:  propping them up, paying them . . . there might have been a presence (there are always "lone wolfes" but they were NOT a THREAT.  Russian amplified them paid them, and CREATED the image of a threat.  

And BO helped.

Sounds like you are defending this crap.

Russia paid to amplify the protests to overthrow a puppet government in its orbit?

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