gazoo

The Reason TD,DQ and Blank all said we had to get bigger on OL

499 posts in this topic

39 minutes ago, Vandy said:

It’s a plan.

Building a stout defense is IMO a better one. 

But Vandy, there is a correlation between a dominant OL and a good defense. If an offense can’t maintain some level of ball control over the course of a game, the defense is on the field far more snaps and can get wiped out by 4th quarter. If our offense can’t, at will, ram the ball down the throat of the opposing defense in certain game situations, it negatively impacts our defense. 

Its not an either or with the lines. They are correlated. With Falcons fixing the inherent problem of a weak interior OL unable to hold a pocket in passing situations, or unable to move defensive lines off the ball at the snap in short yardage and goalline, the defense benefits.

 

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11 hours ago, gazoo said:

Sure I did, you just didn’t like the answer. Here’s a hint

 
 
 

That's avoiding the question, not answering it.

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20 minutes ago, Lornoth said:

I came in to tell OP why he's incorrect.

But it seems like others have that pretty well covered already. 

Not one person here has countered my argument about Ryan’s interior OL allowing the pocket to constantly collapse in on him flushing him out of pocket and getting hit and abused more, taking direct hits from pass rushers breaking through the A gaps and hammering him as he is throwing the ball, vs Brees, Brady and other pocket passers who get hit and abused far less because they do have a consistent pocket to step up into when pressure is coming.

Some have implied pressure on a QB as being equal no matter where it comes from to try and counter my argument, but they absolutely have not disagreed pressure up the middle on Ryan is far worse, led to far more hits and sacks than the pressure off the edges Brees gets with pocket to step up into and release ball without being touched. 

Not one person here has disagreed our OL has been terrible at running the ball in short yardage situations, goalline etc. 

Many have agreed with me on these points. You apparently don’t understand the argument. 

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3 minutes ago, gazoo said:

Not one person here has countered my argument about Ryan’s interior OL allowing the pocket to constantly collapse in on him flushing him out of pocket and getting hit more, vs Brees, Brady and other pocket passers who get hit and abused far less because they do have a consistent pocket to step up into when pressure is coming.

Some have implied pressure on a QB as being equal no matter where it comes from to try and counter my argument, but they absolutely have not disagreed pressure up the middle on Ryan is far worse, led to far more hits and sacks than the pressure off the edges Brees gets with pocket to step up into and release ball without being touched. 

Not one person here has disagreed our OL has been terrible at running the ball in short yardage situations, goalline etc. 

Many have agreed with me on these points. You apparently don’t understand the argument. 

In 2016 Ryan wasn't primarily passing out of a pocket to begin with, so acting like his hits and sacks largely came from the interior is invalid without further stats to back that up.

Additionally, bigger does not equal better at short yardage, especially in a zone scheme, so the premise of that point is also unfounded.

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3 minutes ago, falconidae said:

That's avoiding the question, not answering it.

Sounds like you have control issues. Let me know how that works out for you.

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1 minute ago, Lornoth said:

In 2016 Ryan wasn't primarily passing out of a pocket to begin with, so acting like his hits and sacks largely came from the interior is invalid without further stats to back that up.

Additionally, bigger does not equal better at short yardage, especially in a zone scheme, so the premise of that point is also unfounded.

You are aware when Blank said we had to get bigger, he went into great detail about what he meant, right?  In case you were asleep this offseason, he spoke at length about getting bigger, stronger, more physical, more nasty.  Did you need to put all that in the title so you didn’t get confused? If you read the OP it’s quite clear. 

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1 minute ago, gazoo said:

Sounds like you have control issues. Let me know how that works out for you.

What is wrong with you?  Seriously.  Are you ok?  You are not firing on all cylanders.

I'm embarrassed and concerned for you. 

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10 minutes ago, gazoo said:

Not one person here has countered my argument about Ryan’s interior OL allowing the pocket to constantly collapse in on him flushing him out of pocket and getting hit and abused more, taking direct hits from pass rushers breaking through the A gaps and hammering him as he is throwing the ball, vs Brees, Brady and other pocket passers who get hit and abused far less because they do have a consistent pocket to step up into when pressure is coming.

Some have implied pressure on a QB as being equal no matter where it comes from to try and counter my argument, but they absolutely have not disagreed pressure up the middle on Ryan is far worse, led to far more hits and sacks than the pressure off the edges Brees gets with pocket to step up into and release ball without being touched. 

Not one person here has disagreed our OL has been terrible at running the ball in short yardage situations, goalline etc. 

Many have agreed with me on these points. You apparently don’t understand the argument. 

Levitre, Schraeder & Mack all graded out top 10 pass blockers at their position (Mack 2nd and Schraeder 6th) in 2016 & 2017.  Matthews was well above average both years.  Out pass blocking efficiency was 4th & 12th.  Hardly this collapsing pocket narrative you are selling.

Our routes take longer to unfold and Ryan holds onto the ball too long.  That accounts for the hits and sacks

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2 minutes ago, Falconsin2012 said:

Levitre, Schraeder & Mack all graded out top 10 pass blockers at their position (Mack 2nd and Schraeder 6th) in 2016 & 2017.  Matthews was well above average both years.  Out pass blocking efficiency was 4th & 12th.  Hardly this collapsing pocket narrative you are selling.

Our routes take longer to unfold and Ryan holds onto the ball too long.  That accounts for the hits and sacks

We are arguing facts and logic with someone who don't speak the language...

It's fun when he counters his own arguments and points and he doesn't even realize it.

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I get that Ryan was hit a lot and I understand that long term, that is bad for your QB.

But one thing these stats show to me is that Matt Ryan taking hits did not affect our scoring as much as people are making it out to be. Could we have scored more? Yah but there are always missed plays and no team on earth is perfect.  Matt took a ton of hits and sacks in 2016 and it turned out to be a historical offense. In 2018 Matt took a lot of hits behind 6 different guards and still had a top 10 offense.

Taking Sacks and Hits does not correlate to needing to get "bigger".

If you think offense was this teams problem last year, you don't understand football. Period, end of sentence.

 

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All that may be well and good, but I believe after they watched the steelers and ravens manhandle our o line they knew changes had to be made.. and BIG changes.. 

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4 minutes ago, Falconsin2012 said:

Levitre, Schraeder & Mack all graded out top 10 pass blockers at their position (Mack 2nd and Schraeder 6th) in 2016 & 2017.  Matthews was well above average both years.  Out pass blocking efficiency was 4th & 12th.  Hardly this collapsing pocket narrative you are selling.

Our routes take longer to unfold and Ryan holds onto the ball too long.  That accounts for the hits and sacks

I agreed with you Ryan holds the ball longer due to being constantly flushed out of a collapsing pocket, being chased by defenders as he tries to find a receiver down field and make a play.

Of course Ryan gets hit and sacked more having to constantly be flushed out of a collapsing pocket. It puts him in harms way more often.

The other pocket passes that throw a ton of deep balls like Brees have much stronger, stouter, physical interior OLs that can hold a pocket, so Brees can simply step up in placer and dump ball off when edge pressure is coming.

Do your stats show how far back each interior OL gets shoved  back into the feet of his QB? If Ryan is flushed out of he pocket and runs laterally being chased by defenders the sack or hit won’t be credited to an interior OL. 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, runshoot said:

I get that Ryan was hit a lot and I understand that long term, that is bad for your QB.

But one thing these stats show to me is that Matt Ryan taking hits did not affect our scoring as much as people are making it out to be. Could we have scored more? Yah but there are always missed plays and no team on earth is perfect.  Matt took a ton of hits and sacks in 2016 and it turned out to be a historical offense. In 2018 Matt took a lot of hits behind 6 different guards and still had a top 10 offense.

Taking Sacks and Hits does not correlate to needing to get "bigger".

If you think offense was this teams problem last year, you don't understand football. Period, end of sentence.

 

A huge number of the hits in Ryan came after he was flushed out of a collapsing pocket.  

You will notice not one single person who thinks they are disagreeing with me is acknowledging the huge difference between Ryan’s frequent interior pressure from a collapsing pocket and  Brees typical edge pressure with a stout pocket.

Brees, Brady....almost always have a Solid safe pocket to step up into when under pressure. This prevents all the extra hits Ryan takes after being flushed out of the pocket. Even if same number of pressures overall, very different results based on where they came from

 

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1 hour ago, gazoo said:

But Vandy, there is a correlation between a dominant OL and a good defense. If an offense can’t maintain some level of ball control over the course of a game, the defense is on the field far more snaps and can get wiped out by 4th quarter. If our offense can’t, at will, ram the ball down the throat of the opposing defense in certain game situations, it negatively impacts our defense. 

Its not an either or with the lines. They are correlated. With Falcons fixing the inherent problem of a weak interior OL unable to hold a pocket in passing situations, or unable to move defensive lines off the ball at the snap in short yardage and goalline, the defense benefits.

 

True gazoo, but that’s not my point. I know I’m in the minority here on this issue, but I’ve never felt our OL was THE issue during the ryan years......a bigger issue a few times (2013-14 for sure) but not THE issue. ****, we were a Top 10 OL as recently as 2016-17. 

Even last year, I saw OL create running windows, and our RBs missed the crease, something freeman never missed. That forced us to be a pass-1st team, which allowed teams to tee off and ignore our run, so of course Ryan got sacked a lot. 

Ever since we hired TD/Smith and drafted Ryan, the team has been an offense 1st built team, defense has taken a back seat.  Because of that, falcons over these 11 seasons have almost always been a Top 10 NFL offense...often Top 5.....while defense has (on average) been a bottom 10 NFL D....several times bottom 5. We’ve done all of that with two HC’s who made their NFL bones as defensive minded coaches. It’s insane.

A refurbished OL may mask the core problem, but won’t fix it either. 

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8 minutes ago, Vandy said:

True gazoo, but that’s not my point. I know I’m in the minority here on this issue, but I’ve never felt our OL was THE issue during the ryan years......a bigger issue a few times (2013-14 for sure) but not THE issue. 

Ever since we hired TD/Smith and drafted Ryan, the team has been an offense 1st built team, defense has taken a back seat.  Because if that, falcons over that 12 seasons has almost always been a Top 10 NFL...often Top 5.....while defense has (on average) been a bottom 10 NFL....several times bottom 5. We’ve done that with two HC’s who makes their NFL bones as defensive minded coaches.

It’s insane. 

This is also true.  Though I've been on the bandwagon for OG's for years, the D has been dreadful.

But, I find it crazy that we bring in a defensive coach, and up until this year spend 75% of our top 3 round draft capital on defense, and still don't have a great defense.  I understand money is tied up in offense, but when you have tons of 1st, 2nd, 3rd rounders on D...you ought to be pretty good.

Takk, 1st rounder, Beasley, 1st rounder, Collins 2nd rounder, Jones 2nd rounder, Neal 1st rounder, Oliver 2nd rounder and then the other guys are a couple late rounders who became pro bowl/near pro bowl level (Jarrett, Allen) and a previous 1st rounder (Tru). The only non pedigree starters on the D are basically the NT, and the SLB/nickel.

I know you're going to miss sometimes, but this should be a good D, with all the young high grade talent on it.  I think that's why Quinn is over it now.  At some point, those picks have to perform.  (This said from someone who wanted a DT and DE this draft)

 

In schematics:

1st round              1st round  VET  Pro bowl  1st round                         2nd round

                                                                                               Kazee

                                     2nd round/pro bowl       4th round

 

                               1st round/pro bowl              Allen

 

That ought to be a good defense, not elite...but quite good.  The main problem is our 1st round DE's have to act like it.

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3 minutes ago, Vandy said:

True gazoo, but that’s not my point. I know I’m in the minority here on this issue, but I’ve never felt our OL was THE issue during the ryan years......a bigger issue a few times (2013-14 for sure) but not THE issue.

Even last year, I saw OL create running windows, and our RBs missed the crease, something freeman never missed.

Ever since we hired TD/Smith and drafted Ryan, the team has been an offense 1st built team, defense has taken a back seat.  Because if that, falcons over that 12 seasons has almost always been a Top 10 NFL...often Top 5.....while defense has (on average) been a bottom 10 NFL....several times bottom 5. We’ve done that with two HC’s who makes their NFL bones as defensive minded coaches.

It’s insane. 

This is where Im going with my previous post.

Im not speaking for Vandy, but I am saying, offense has never been this teams issue while having Matt Ryan. Dude is that good. And yes I want to protect him so he can be effective for another decade. 

But this offense WENT last year and that was with garbage players at guard and RT and no RB. I disagree with Blank/Front office that "we had to get bigger" on the oline.

 

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11 minutes ago, runshoot said:

This is where Im going with my previous post.

Im not speaking for Vandy, but I am saying, offense has never been this teams issue while having Matt Ryan. Dude is that good. And yes I want to protect him so he can be effective for another decade. 

But this offense WENT last year and that was with garbage players at guard and RT and no RB. I disagree with Blank/Front office that "we had to get bigger" on the oline.

 

You’re pretty much speaking my view as well, runshoot. (Ironic name for a guy pounding table for defense, LOL!) 

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15 minutes ago, Vandy said:

True gazoo, but that’s not my point. I know I’m in the minority here on this issue, but I’ve never felt our OL was THE issue during the ryan years......a bigger issue a few times (2013-14 for sure) but not THE issue.

Even last year, I saw OL create running windows, and our RBs missed the crease, something freeman never missed. That forced us to be a pass-1st team, which allowed teams to tee off and ignore the run, so of course Ryan got sacked a lot. 

Ever since we hired TD/Smith and drafted Ryan, the team has been an offense 1st built team, defense has taken a back seat.  Because of that, falcons over these 11 seasons have almost always been a Top 10 NFL offense...often Top 5.....while defense has (on average) been a bottom 10 NFL D....several times bottom 5. We’ve done all of that with two HC’s who made their NFL bones as defensive minded coaches.It’s insane.

A refurbished OL may mask the core problem, but won’t fix it either. 

Our OL still ranked 12th last season.  People love making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Where did our defense rank last year?  But FA and draft went to offense.  Makes sense

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19 minutes ago, gazoo said:

A huge number of the hits in Ryan came after he was flushed out of a collapsing pocket.  

You will notice not one single person who thinks they are disagreeing with me is acknowledging the huge difference between Ryan’s frequent interior pressure from a collapsing pocket and  Brees typical edge pressure with a stout pocket.

Brees, Brady....almost always have a Solid safe pocket to step up into when under pressure. This prevents all the extra hits Ryan takes after being flushed out of the pocket. Even if same number of pressures overall, very different results based on where they came from

 

OK. Matt gets flushed more and takes hits more. Yes Brees has a better pocket typically as does Brady than Matt.

What reason are you opining? Are you saying we needed to get bigger to protect Matt for his health? Or we needed to get bigger to score "better or more"? If its the former, then OK. If its the latter then you are wrong.

 

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13 minutes ago, runshoot said:

OK. Matt gets flushed more and takes hits more. Yes Brees has a better pocket typically as does Brady than Matt.

What reason are you opining? Are you saying we needed to get bigger to protect Matt for his health? Or we needed to get bigger to score "better or more"? If its the former, then OK. If its the latter then you are wrong.

 

Protection for Ryan is #1 reason, short yardage an goal line #2 and being able to take over a game we are ahead in and impose our will on a defense by slamming ball down their throats, even when they know we are going to keep running is #3

Scoring is not the issue.

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16 hours ago, gazoo said:

These other pocket QBs aren’t taking anywhere near the pounding Ryan has been playing behind the 2016 and 2018 OLs.  In 2016 Our OGs were both older (33 years old and 31 years old) both 303lbs and RT Shraeder was only 300lbs. We replaced them with a 340lb OG, a 321lb OG, and drafted a 327lb RT and an Uber talented 308Lb OG who excels in pass protection.  I don’t see this 2019 OL getting run over by bull rushing DTs as much, robbing Ryan of a pocket to pass from.

Ryan has been getting absolutely killed and TD, DQ and Blank all realized they had to fix the inherent problem of having smallish, more mobile but lighter and less powerful OL. Sure, the zone blocking allows our backs to break long runs if they hit second level, but also makes it difficult to pound out a tough yard on 1st and goal at the 1, or consistently hold a good clean pocket in obvious passing situations like the other pocket QBs enjoy.

This is why when people complained about the ZBS requiring smaller OGs and we needed to move on from it, I constantly disagreed. If Brown ends up winning the LG spot, he's 6'6 340lb. Chris Lindstrom is 6'4 310lbs. Throw in 6'8 325lb McGary and like you pointed out, that's a significant size improvement to the 2016 OL with the same basis of ZBS. The smallest guy on the OL will be 310lbs (Jake, Mack, Lindstrom). 

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4 minutes ago, vel said:

This is why when people complained about the ZBS requiring smaller OGs and we needed to move on from it, I constantly disagreed. If Brown ends up winning the LG spot, he's 6'6 340lb. Chris Lindstrom is 6'4 310lbs. Throw in 6'8 325lb McGary and like you pointed out, that's a significant size improvement to the 2016 OL with the same basis of ZBS. The smallest guy on the OL will be 310lbs (Jake, Mack, Lindstrom). 

We got much more physical, more powerful, stronger and bigger. It may be at a slight expense to mobility but that’s a totally acceptable trade off to me when my pocket QB is getting mauled after being flushed with a much higher frequency than Brees, Beady etc from a collapsing pocket. 

But exactly as you said, Brown, Carpenter and Kaleb ARE surprisingly mobile for their size so we get some of both.

I look forward to watching games and not having to watch our OL get blown back off the LOS so much. 

 

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3 minutes ago, gazoo said:

We got much more physical, more powerful, stronger and bigger. It may be at a slight expense to mobility but that’s a totally acceptable trade off to me when my pocket QB is getting mauled after being flushed with a much higher frequency than Brees, Beady etc from a collapsing pocket. 

But exactly as you said, Brown, Carpenter and Kaleb ARE surprisingly mobile for their size so we get some of both.

I look forward to watching games and not having to watch our OL get blown back off the LOS so much. 

 

Exactly. We aren't losing so much athleticism in lieu of adding physicality. It's a happy medium. I mean, we saw Rodger Saffold work just fine in the ZBS scheme out in LA and he's about the same size as Brown. Ironically, Kaleb McGary is a carbon copy of Rob Havenstein out in LA as well. If Lindstrom comes in hitting the ground running day one as a rookie, this could quietly return to being one of the best OLs in the league. And Matt will destroy behind them if that happens. 

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15 minutes ago, vel said:

Exactly. We aren't losing so much athleticism in lieu of adding physicality. It's a happy medium. I mean, we saw Rodger Saffold work just fine in the ZBS scheme out in LA and he's about the same size as Brown. Ironically, Kaleb McGary is a carbon copy of Rob Havenstein out in LA as well. If Lindstrom comes in hitting the ground running day one as a rookie, this could quietly return to being one of the best OLs in the league. And Matt will destroy behind them if that happens. 

Not to be contrary, Vel.  But wouldn’t you agree that both Brown & Carpenter, despite their size, are below average run blockers?  Neither graded over 55 in run blocking last year

And Brown isn’t any better in pass pro.  He committed a concerning eight penalties during the 2018 campaign. “He allowed his quarterbacks to be pressured a whopping 19 times, despite the fact that he started just half the season. 12 of those pressures resulted in quarterback hurries and he allowed the quarterback to be hit 4 times. He also allowed three sacks. Pro Football Focus gave Brown a grade of just 53.5 as a pass blocker. He didn’t fare much better in the run game, grading just 54.1. Overall he was given a grade of only 50.7 out of a possible 99.9. I would consider that a D- performance.”

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